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Topic: Pirates 3 First Listen
sean
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The most ridiculous aspect of these arguments about Hans Zimmer's music has been brought to the forefront by gkgyver: That those of us who like a Zimmer score wouldn't have the taste to relish great scores such as The Good German and Lady In The Water (gkgyver's examples, and absurdly enough two of my favourites from last year). That's just fantastic! Its just as insane to put forward the notion that in order to discuss music/film music one needs to be literate (sheet music) and musically trained to be worthy of sharing their thoughts on the matter at hand; its like those who think you need a degree in political science in order to discuss politics in any meaningful fashion.Don't assume for a second that because one likes a new Hans Zimmer score they hate all else, and I'm sure you're old enough to know what they say about assumptions... Look, I love the new Pirates score, but so what? My favourite composer is still and will probably always be Jerry Goldsmith. As for Zimmer's best, it isn't his action scoring that brings him near the top for me: its his music for movies like The Thin Red Line or Da Vinci Code that do it.
Another problem here is putting CutThroat Island on some kind of pedestal (it should be in a booster seat!). Yeah, it's got some great cues and nice themes, but it sure isn't the be-all-and-end-all of high seas scoring. Certainly, one of the biggest problems with it is the lack of style on the part of John Debney: he's done some good scores, but there's no unique voice from his work, no style that makes his work distinct. Zimmer, like his work or hate it, at least there's a style to it to like or dislike. CutThroat Island sounds like a mish-mash of Horner, Williams, Goldsmith, Waxman, Korngold, you name it and maybe it was a fluke for Debney, because he's never risen to that level again; it's his best score and yet all I can pick and choose from it that sounds "Debney" are the odd moments that remind me of his scoring for Deep Space Nine, oh well.
And to repeat my original thought: Stop giving Hans Zimmer "one last chance" or "another chance," because what's the point? Those who do it so obviously hate his scores, yet continue to punish themselves by paying money for his music or pushing their bandwidth in downloading his scores. Its really strange behaviour. (I like Meshuggah, but I sure as hell am not going to get anything by Nile nor spend the time downloading their stuff, because that's not the death metal I enjoy, simple as that; just put Zimmer's name in there!)
[Message edited by sean on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 10:51 PM PT (US) Quill
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Well, I'm not classically trained in music, so I suppose my opinion will count for less. That being said, I listened to this score many times over the long weekend and I truly enjoying it.It is not a simple rehash and as some very engaging pieces. Standouts:
At Wit's End
Up is Down
Parlay
Calypso
What Shall we Die ForNearly every track is solid, except perhaps for the quirky Multiple Jacks. The two new main themes (that I have picked out at least)...Hoist the Colors and theme that presents itself most obviously in At Wit's End, Up is Down and I See Dead People in Boats are great.
posted 05-29-2007 05:03 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
And the only diversity that Williams has is outside of his action music. Why some consider him to be a God is still a question that haunts me to no end. Sure he's good, but better than Herrmann, Waxman, Morricone and even Goldenthal he is not.Well I'll grant you Morricone has pulled off some pretty incredible multi-score years (incl 2005 - with Fateless, Cefalonia and Karol among others), but apart from him, Williams' standout trio of WAR OF THE WORLDS, MEMOIRS and MUNICH in 2005 strikes me as a remarkable feat in film composing. Three great pairings of dramatic instinct and musicianship.
I can't really make sense of the 'diversity outside of his action music' remark actually. It seems to me that if you take SW:ROTS alone, you have many different approaches to scoring action scenes there - wrath of god bombast in 'Battle of the heroes'; a jazzy orchestral rumba in 'General Grievous'; the more Stravinsky-inspired 'Battle of Coruscant'; the dark percussive Dooku light sabre battles; even a Zimmeresque use of the Force theme in the opening over a fairly stand march rhythm.
posted 05-29-2007 05:46 PM PT (US) nuts_score
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Well I'll grant you Morricone has pulled off some pretty incredible multi-score years (incl 2005 - with Fateless, Cefalonia and Karol among others), but apart from him, Williams' standout trio of WAR OF THE WORLDS, MEMOIRS and MUNICH in 2005 strikes me as a remarkable feat in film composing. Three great pairings of dramatic instinct and musicianship.I can't really make sense of the 'diversity outside of his action music' remark actually. It seems to me that if you take SW:ROTS alone, you have many different approaches to scoring action scenes there - wrath of god bombast in 'Battle of the heroes'; a jazzy orchestral rumba in 'General Grievous'; the more Stravinsky-inspired 'Battle of Coruscant'; the dark percussive Dooku light sabre battles; even a Zimmeresque use of the Force theme in the opening over a fairly stand march rhythm.
The thing is Michael, I'm not looking at this in terms of quantity, but rather quality. Sure, pulling off three great (well, I'm not sure the other two met the outstanding force of WotW) scores in one year is a feat itself, and Williams has pulled challenges like this before without a hitch (though some lose potential, The Lost World comes to mind). But I'd rather have a composer take their time as they progress with a truly great and original score. "The Ferry Scene" cue in WotW is a cue that I honestly skip every listen, it's about as Stravinsky as they come, and it bothers me to no end. It's ripped straight from The Rites of Spring. Most of his action cues existing in the Star Wars and/or Indiana Jones universe rely on overtly Russian-inspired bombast orchestrations; you can't deny that. I'm more interested in Williams' personal side, developing his motifs and themes (in and out of the action cues if necessary) he excels at, and I'll give him huge props for that (even if many of them sound as though they should be in the same movie, though certainly Zimmer is guilty of this). I'm glad you brought up your examples, as they are good scenarios of different approaches that Williams had taken to action scoring; but, to me, there just isn't enough to distinguish. Though I'll gleefully admit WotW's "The Intersection Scene" as my favorite cue from the past five years. So, I'm not all about John Williams hate, I'm hoping to just open more ears to Stravinsky or William Walton, perhaps even a Max Steiner fan could be born from my late night Williams lambasting.
posted 05-29-2007 10:37 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
The thing is Michael, I'm not looking at this in terms of quantity, but rather quality.*Affected wounded face, as though quantity was all that mattered to me*
But you might notice that I didn't list four scores, so it's not just about quantity. (ROTS, while enjoyable, probably wasn't that much of a stretch for Williams.) The reason being is that from what I'm hearing, MEMOIRS is probably one of Williams' best 5 albums ever, and MUNICH is one of his very best scores, with some of his best agitated writing ever ('Bearing the Burden', the Munich massacre cues). WAR OF THE WORLDS is the hanger-on in this group of three for me, though a very worthy effort on its own. I'm not one of those who have bemoaned the loss of the Williams of SUPERMAN and the like... for me he's rarely as strong as he is now - almost an inverse of the trajectory of Jerry Goldsmith's development as a composer.And I wish I could agree that the year that produced AMISTAD, SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, LOST WORLD and ROSEWOOD was equal to 2005. But none of those scores save aspects of SEVEN YEARS seem as confident or as interesting as MUNICH, MEMOIRS or WOTW.
As well, I don't think any have ever denied the connection between Stravinsky and Williams. And it isn't exactly an unadapted influence - Stravinsky channeled through Williams' melodic style and his jazz-roots is not the same Stravinsky that appeared in the action music of LOGAN'S RUN. Same with the influence of Waxman and Copland on Williams.
If you want an answer to the mystery of why John Williams can take essentially the same style from film to film, and yet not attract the kind of criticism that Zimmer cops for doing the same, I imagine that it's got something to do with how easily a lot of Zimmer's music breaks down under analysis. Also he doesn't risk upsetting people with his music - even 'The Kraken' or 'Let my own home be my gallows' are pretty button-pushing. The modern Williams entertains a lot more difficult material in his music - to the point where you have to hear music in a certain way to really enjoy something like WAR OF THE WORLDS. Being a fan of the STAR WARS music probably won't be enough on its own.
Anyway, that's what I think. Of course, there's a certain amount of snobbery to it, and that always plays a part in debates on whether music is good because of how it works when we don't think about it (ie enjoyability), vs how it works when we concentrate on it as music (technique).
[Message edited by franz_conrad on 05-29-2007]
posted 05-29-2007 11:11 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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Ah... perhaps I should have read the page before on this thread before getting involved. It seems this thread has been over this ground (sort of) before, with many agreeing that Williams action music is not very diverse. It seems analysis of his broad range of compositional choices in action scenes even from recent films would be unnecessary.Anyway, I'll come back to this thread after I see this film on the weekend. And after hearing the score. Because at the moment most of my feelings about the music of this series are shaped by DEAD MAN'S CHEST, one of the stalest of last summer's dull batch of scores.
posted 05-29-2007 11:25 PM PT (US) sean
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Under what analysis does Zimmer's music "break down"? Under gkgyver's "I just know it doesn't sound right" analysis, or what? I've written this before: I don't mind people criticizing Hans Zimmer, it'd just be nice to see it done well... gkgyver, here, failed to no end at this, so has Lou Goldberg; in fact, the only person who has done criticizing Hans Zimmer any justice here at this board is Shaun Rutherford, and he's made it humourous at the same time (that's always a bonus!).The John Williams approach to scoring a film is the same as (most) all other composers, I would argue. He writes a theme, or a set of themes, and the score becomes variations on that theme or sets of them. Zimmer does this, as do many others. Williams doesn't really deviate from his orchestral writing and you can hear much of the same orchestrations for his action cues from score to score. When he does deviate I don't know how successful he is, or that he should even attempt it: listen to that silly and dated electronic-drum-machine part from A.I.... I've never heard anything like that from him before or since, and I sure as hell don't want to again (it was dreadful!); watching the scene its for, the piece is buried under sound effects and the scene could have either been left unscored or done more in the same manner as the rest of the action music for that film, and not finished in the "modern" path he chose or was asked to use.
As for these classical music references, does it really matter? Call me stupid, but I tend to stay away from classical music (I do have some and its mostly becuase I've heard a piece here and there on the radio or in a film, like Bach's "Fugue in D Minor" from The Aviator, for the X-Plane sequence: WOW!) because of the elitism (Alex Ross, anyone? Or hell, The New York Times... I remember their patronizing review of Williams's music for Revenge Of The Sith) that comes with it in holding it up to film music. It disturbs me to see nuts_score going down this sorry path. "The Ferry Scene" is actually my favourite piece from Williams's War Of The Worlds and I don't give a rat's a-s-s if it sounds like Stravinsky. (We could crap all over Cliff Eidelman for using the Plantes as inspiration for his outstanding and first-rate score to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and so on and on... And doesn't Goldsmith's First Knight sound like The Rites Of Spring, too? So what! Let's move on.) Memoirs is O.K., but most the album is peppered with a ton of background music IMO. The only standout pieces from it are the big variations and performances of "Sayuri's Theme" (tracks: 1, 6, and 18); the end credit track being the best and one of Williams's best, ever.
NP: Thief Of Hearts *****/***** Harold Faltermeyer HAHAHA!!!!
posted 05-30-2007 01:32 AM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by sean:
Under what analysis does Zimmer's music "break down"? Under gkgyver's "I just know it doesn't sound right" analysis, or what?By that I meant his music can be pretty easily analysed, even by someone who doesn't know much about music (e.g. me), after one listen often. I didn't mean to suggest the negative with 'break down'. There's not a lot to it, so unless you're really keyed into the emotional journey it takes you on, it can leave you pretty uninterested.
posted 05-30-2007 02:37 AM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Ah... perhaps I should have read the page before on this thread before getting involved. It seems this thread has been over this ground (sort of) before, with many agreeing that Williams action music is not very diverse. It seems analysis of his broad range of compositional choices in action scenes even from recent films would be unnecessary.Anyway, I'll come back to this thread after I see this film on the weekend. And after hearing the score. Because at the moment most of my feelings about the music of this series are shaped by DEAD MAN'S CHEST, one of the stalest of last summer's dull batch of scores.
You've probably heard already... but stay until after the end credits. That way you won't feel quite so depressed/suicidal.
I just can't believe the way this trilogy ended.
posted 05-30-2007 07:51 AM PT (US) nuts_score
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quote:
Originally posted by NeoVoyager:
I just can't believe the way this trilogy ended.WHAT?!
It looks like I'll have to bring this up in my review that I'm still typing up. I'm hoping to bring up some interesting things for us to discuss in regards to this (unjustly criticized, IMO) film trilogy.
posted 05-30-2007 09:12 AM PT (US) joan hue
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Oh Oh, I didn't stay and watch the end credits. Drat! So what happened? Someone who stayed through the credits just type in "Spoilers Ahead, Mates" and tell me what happens after the end credits, please. I saw interesting "possibilities" for more sequels at the end, but I may be ill informed.
posted 05-30-2007 09:26 AM PT (US) sean
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
WHAT?!It looks like I'll have to bring this up in my review that I'm still typing up. I'm hoping to bring up some interesting things for us to discuss in regards to this (unjustly criticized, IMO) film trilogy.
Are you taking a dive off the deep end or what? I remember last summer you tried to convince me that Pirates 2 was as good and worthy as The Empire Strikes Back! Lunacy! And you recanted that statement, thankfully. For someone (you) who appreciates screenwriting I'm surprised that you would give any merit to these films; they're so unevenly paced with filler and boredom its staggering: why it takes x amount of time to get to a this betrayal or that fight scene or that ship battle made no sense in this film. (The first time I saw Pirates 2 I fell asleep for over half the film I was so bored; the second time I forced myself to stay awake and you know what? I didn't miss much! For number 3, I stayed quite alert but could have easily slipped into a coma.)
franz, I'm gonna disagree with you there about sizing a Zimmer score up more easily than a score by any other composer. I think its just as easy to listen to a John Williams score or a Howard Shore score and get the jist of it in the same manner you can do that with a score by Hans Zimmer. For example, you're obviously quite taken and impressed by Williams's work on Memoirs Of A Geisha. I'm not, and I only took away 3 tracks from it that caught my ear with the rest not holding up to the calibre of his theme for "Sayuri," and like I wrote, the end credits piece is one of the best Williams pieces I've ever heard (so there's some common ground there, but on a whole the score doesn't register at the top for me as far as Williams is concerned).
posted 05-30-2007 09:38 AM PT (US) sean
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quote:
Originally posted by joan hue:
Oh Oh, I didn't stay and watch the end credits. Drat! So what happened? Someone who stayed through the credits just type in "Spoilers Ahead, Mates" and tell me what happens after the end credits, please. I saw interesting "possibilities" for more sequels at the end, but I may be ill informed.NO SPOILER
Fabio happened! From my thread no one who's the seen the movie wants to reply to (I'm so terribly hurt! haha hopefully nuts will change that): Like a movie with all the unwanted deleted scenes included, and including an after-the-end-credits ridiculous Fabio-like scene that will have you in stiches at its idiocy.
http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/015701.html... and there's NO SPOILERS.
posted 05-30-2007 09:43 AM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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Nuts_score:Maybe you misunderstood me; I liked the movie... probably more than the other two. It's just that I was completely not expecting such a heartbreaking ending to a (Disney) trilogy.
Joan... I have a Flash video clip of the ending scene after the credits, and it can also be found on YouTube several times a day (before Disney orders it taken down).
Search YouTube for "pirates after credits" and you'll find somethin'.
[Message edited by NeoVoyager on 05-30-2007]
posted 05-30-2007 01:08 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by sean:
franz, I'm gonna disagree with you there about sizing a Zimmer score up more easily than a score by any other composer. I think its just as easy to listen to a John Williams score or a Howard Shore score and get the jist of it in the same manner you can do that with a score by Hans Zimmer.Sometimes you can. But since Zimmer's playing with melody, rhythmic accompaniment, and triads most of the time, while those other two are playing with more tools, I find it takes me longer to figure out what they're doing at times. More thought investment ---> greater feeling of achievement at having figured out the composer's choices. A comparable exercise would be comparing Williams versions of his Superman themes to Ottman's.
quote:
For example, you're obviously quite taken and impressed by Williams's work on Memoirs Of A Geisha. I'm not, and I only took away 3 tracks from it that caught my ear with the rest not holding up to the calibre of his theme for "Sayuri," and like I wrote, the end credits piece is one of the best Williams pieces I've ever heard (so there's some common ground there, but on a whole the score doesn't register at the top for me as far as Williams is concerned).Ah, there you see perhaps what I'm getting at. It's only the tracks of the main theme that you're particularly taken with. Which is unfortunate, as stuff like 'Brush on Silk' and 'Rooftop' are a lot more textural / less melodic, but brilliant film compositions. (Perhaps knowing the scenes here help.)
posted 05-30-2007 03:11 PM PT (US) sean
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Ah, there you see perhaps what I'm getting at. It's only the tracks of the main theme that you're particularly taken with. Which is unfortunate, as stuff like 'Brush on Silk' and 'Rooftop' are a lot more textural / less melodic, but brilliant film compositions. (Perhaps knowing the scenes here help.)I know exactly what you're saying about the rest of the score, and for me those are pushed aside for appreciation rather than pure enjoyment. The tracks I mentioned are the ones that really command attention, mking me sit up and take note. The rest of the score, while skillyfully composed, just doesn't resonate with me. Munich, too, does this for me: The guitar renditions of "Avner's Theme," the end credits, and some of the suspense writing are what resonate with me; the rest is, while well done, is peripheral to me--ESPECIALLY the solo female vocals, yikes. For me, Revenge Of The Sith is more like it! Strong and memorable compositions: one after another! Geisha and Munich still get 5 stars, just to be clear.
posted 05-30-2007 07:02 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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In the way these things happen, I've now heard AT WORLD'S END. It's quite a bit of fun. Definitely quite a bit ahead of the last score. I wonder whether this movie has much to laugh at - one of the weaknesses of the previous film - since there's very little 'funny' music.The love theme - which reminds me of THE TIME MACHINE by Badelt - and Hoist the Colours both work pretty well. And whoever wrote the action pieces - I'm not making assumptions with that many additional composers - has a surer hand than whoever wrote the action pieces on Zimmer's last Pirate scores.
The only thing that doesn't really fit is the reference to Morricone's 'At a Judgement' in 'Parlay'. It's like Morricone gone conventional, something that just doesn't make any sense. It did make me wonder what kind of scores Morricone would have written for this bizarre trilogy.
posted 05-30-2007 07:22 PM PT (US) joan hue
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Hey NeoV, I did find that at Youtube. Thanks. However, it is a bit depressing in a way.Franz, that Morricone imitation did fit a particular scene in the movie. The general audience also seemed to catch on to this musical reference. It was kind of fun.
posted 05-30-2007 11:10 PM PT (US) nuts_score
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quote:
Originally posted by NeoVoyager:
Nuts_score:Maybe you misunderstood me; I liked the movie... probably more than the other two. It's just that I was completely not expecting such a heartbreaking ending to a (Disney) trilogy.
Ah, now I completely see what you mean and I agree with you. I'm surprised that Disney has allowed near-complete artistic freedom to Verbinski, Rossio, and Elliot on this franchise; this is something you'll read into my coming review.
Please wait patiently Sean.
posted 05-31-2007 09:17 PM PT (US) joan hue
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I was not expecting that ending either. I still think there will be a Pirates FOUR.
posted 05-31-2007 11:22 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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Well, I've seen the film now.Firstly, liked it more than the second...
Secondly, didn't like it as much as the first.Pros:
- Depp wins my amusement 9.5 times out 10 - only the 'multiple jacks' in the brig scene played to the cheap seats a bit too much
- Great to see Rush back. They could have done some more with him, but having him there was enough.
- Sao Feng is another strong addition, though I wish he hadn't been dispatched so quickly.
- Quite a moving ending for Elizabeth and Will, even though the idea of Orlando Bloom kissing the legs of Keira's stunt double caused me more amusement than anything else.
- Good ending with Jack and Barbossa.
- Great to see the dog escaped the cannibals. (Though perhaps the film could have cut 20 of the 60 gratuitous references to smaller plot issues in the two earlier films - it might have corrected that overlength by a sensible 15 minutes...? In general people do not have a good memory like me.)
- The Wedding Sequence - nice bit of editing there.
- Special effects all around... the maelstrom and sinking of the Endeavor stand out as sequences.
- Limbo and the Crabs.
- Quite a macabre humourous opening scene with shuffling pirates providing rhythm to the song.
- Up is Down.Con:
- Why do they always assume bigness of everything else the most important ingredient in a sequel?
- Considers itself very important. There's not the same flippancy as we encountered in the first film. E.g. Elizabeth's 'What shall we die for?' speech. In the first film, Barbossa/Jack/Gibbs or somebody would have undercut the urgency of the plea with some remark that appealed to baser pirate instincts, yet still prompted them to do the right thing. That anarchist spirit didn't show up to set that often on this film - and since it's the main contributor to the first film's classic status, it's an unfortunate absence.
- Why anyone trusts anyone to keep to an agreement is beyond me.... and I know that's part of the point - but Barbossa shouldn't be surprised when Calypso doesn't keep her agreement.
- Perhaps in accompaniment to the last point- when things like 'Accord' and 'Parlay' were called in the first film, they often initiated hilarious spats on the meaning and spirit of the Pirate code... Somehow the many references to the 'Brethren Court' in this film don't quite add up to the same thing.
- Does Elizabeth earn immortality by virtue of being the wife of Will? Because she didn't look ten years older, and my mind had to imagine whether the eternally youthful Will would continuing paying the visit in 60 years or so...
- A lot of indoor scenes in this film or studio indoor scenes, and also at-sea scenes. Perhaps a few more on-land real locations wouldn't have hurt things? For some reason I felt like I was in an environment that was a lot affected and claustrophobic than in either of the previous films.
- Do we have to cut to every one of the Pirate Lords every time they're close to battle? I think shots of Barbossa, Will, Elizabeth and Jack would have sufficed at the end of the big battle...
- ... speaking of all those other pirate lords and the battle - What exactly were all the other ships doing while the Black Pearl and the Dutchman were at battle? Once the Dutchman has sunk, it looks like there are some columns of smoke on the horizon suggestive of combat, but ensuing establishing shots correct the impression by showing all those other boats at exactly their positions at the start of the battle?
- Perhaps a good point to raise another continuity issue - how many cannons does the bloody Black Pearl have? They easily lost a few when they left the 'locker', and even if we assume that they replaced them at Shipwreck Cove, over half their emplacements were blasted out in the maelstrom with the Dutchman? (That ship lost a few guns as well, as well as 250% of its sailors.) Yet when Sparrow calls fire on Beckett's flagship, the guns are all back in place... Unfortunately this is one of many noticable signs of disposable narrative continuity... perhaps we can blame the scripts unorthodox inception for that?
- Action Scenes mean Cutting Quicker than the Eye - whenever they needed to switch everyone's positions around, an action scene ensues in which all traceable continuity goes to blazes... consider the visual chaos at Sao Feng's hideout. That's not good action direction - that's flashing images by quickly enough to move the props and characters around.
- Logical - when betrayals run out of good reasons! - Why did Will Turner need the Black Pearl to get his father back again? Seems like any ship would have done if that was all it was about.Ugly
- The critical reaction to this film. Why are critics so baffled by a plot when the movie bores them? Why not just come out with the real reason for not liking it?3 to 3.5 out of 5
posted 06-11-2007 02:40 AM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
- Depp wins my amusement 9.5 times out 10 - only the 'multiple jacks' in the brig scene played to the cheap seats a bit too muchAm I the only one that was thinking, "Whoa! Agent Sparrow!"?
quote:
- Quite a moving ending for Elizabeth and Will, even though the idea of Orlando Bloom kissing the legs of Keira's stunt double caused me more amusement than anything else.Stunt double, you say??
quote:
- The Wedding Sequence - nice bit of editing there.Yep, I thought that part was so cool/cute.
quote:
- Quite a macabre humourous opening scene with shuffling pirates providing rhythm to the song.Hmmm, funny... I didn't think it was humorous at all, but rather quite indicative of how seriously this film was going to be taking itself.
quote:
- Why do they always assume bigness of everything else the most important ingredient in a sequel?Because the general movie-going public and critics will lambast it if it doesn't ratchet up the "excitement and explosions" factor by a few notches with each installment. Sad but true.
quote:
- Does Elizabeth earn immortality by virtue of being the wife of Will? Because she didn't look ten years older, and my mind had to imagine whether the eternally youthful Will would continuing paying the visit in 60 years or so...[/quoteHaven't you heard? The writers have publicly *confirmed* that since Elizabeth was still waiting for him after the first 10 years, the curse is broken and Will is free of the Dutchman.
[quote]- ... speaking of all those other pirate lords and the battle - What exactly were all the other ships doing while the Black Pearl and the Dutchman were at battle? Once the Dutchman has sunk, it looks like there are some columns of smoke on the horizon suggestive of combat, but ensuing establishing shots correct the impression by showing all those other boats at exactly their positions at the start of the battle?
I wondered that too...
quote:
- The critical reaction to this film. Why are critics so baffled by a plot when the movie bores them? Why not just come out with the real reason for not liking it?Maybe critics just have very short collective attention spans. I didn't think it was confusing.
4 to 4.5 out of 5.
posted 06-11-2007 07:35 AM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
- Depp wins my amusement 9.5 times out 10 - only the 'multiple jacks' in the brig scene played to the cheap seats a bit too muchAm I the only one that was thinking, "Whoa! Agent Sparrow!"?
quote:
- Quite a moving ending for Elizabeth and Will, even though the idea of Orlando Bloom kissing the legs of Keira's stunt double caused me more amusement than anything else.Stunt double, you say??
quote:
- The Wedding Sequence - nice bit of editing there.Yep, I thought that part was so cool/cute.
quote:
- Quite a macabre humourous opening scene with shuffling pirates providing rhythm to the song.Hmmm, funny... I didn't think it was humorous at all, but rather quite indicative of how seriously this film was going to be taking itself.
quote:
- Why do they always assume bigness of everything else the most important ingredient in a sequel?Because the general movie-going public and critics will lambast it if it doesn't ratchet up the "excitement and explosions" factor by a few notches with each installment. Sad but true.
quote:
- Does Elizabeth earn immortality by virtue of being the wife of Will? Because she didn't look ten years older, and my mind had to imagine whether the eternally youthful Will would continuing paying the visit in 60 years or so...Methinks you haven't heard... the writers have publicly *confirmed* that since Elizabeth was still waiting for him after the first 10 years, the curse is broken and Will is free of the Dutchman. This is what they intended the audience to gather, but some crucial scenes that made this more clear were cut without their knowledge.
quote:
- ... speaking of all those other pirate lords and the battle - What exactly were all the other ships doing while the Black Pearl and the Dutchman were at battle? Once the Dutchman has sunk, it looks like there are some columns of smoke on the horizon suggestive of combat, but ensuing establishing shots correct the impression by showing all those other boats at exactly their positions at the start of the battle?I wondered that too...
quote:
- The critical reaction to this film. Why are critics so baffled by a plot when the movie bores them? Why not just come out with the real reason for not liking it?Maybe critics just have very short collective attention spans. I didn't think it was confusing.
4 to 4.5 out of 5.
posted 06-11-2007 07:39 AM PT (US) sean
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Michael, why not mention the way the score worked in the film (this is moviemusic.com)? Even though the music had a terrible mix to begin with, there were a few scenes that I thought were well spotted, like "Up Is Down," "Multiple Jacks," and the latter half of "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time" (the wedding scene in particular). "Singapore" sounds like we're supposed to see like a massive fleet of war ships (I'm talking a minute into the track) but again the film fails Zimmer's music and got burried in the badly edited fight at Tequila's place.
posted 06-11-2007 11:59 AM PT (US) franz_conrad
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Music was quite good throughout. The only bits that really annoyed me were:
- 'What shall we die for' - owing to the absence of snide pirate logic in counterpoint to Keira's earnest speech
- the first half of 'One Day' - because they were cutting again to every one of the pirate lords...
- 'Parlay' - the wrong kind of humour for this film. That's a SHREK kind of joke - ripping off a sequence from another film so that people will have fun recognising it. Admittedly they're ripping off a much better film here, but it's the sort of thing you put on the DVD, not the three hour film.BTW - if the writers think Orlando is freed because Keira is still on the island, they should have put it in the bloody movie.
posted 06-11-2007 03:09 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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Where art thou, nuts?I have challenged your baby on some points. I expect debate.
posted 06-12-2007 06:11 PM PT (US) HadrianD
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
BTW - if the writers think Orlando is freed because Keira is still on the island, they should have put it in the bloody movie.Elizabeth wasn't on the same island that Will left her at. Will is freed from the curse because Elizabeth still love him and waited for his return 10 years later.
posted 06-12-2007 06:23 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by HadrianD:
Elizabeth wasn't on the same island that Will left her at.Well, admittedly the terrain looked a little different, but it was hard to tell to my eyes if they hadn't tried to 'cheat it' as the same location from different angles. Or did I miss some crucial piece of exposition?
Again, it couldn't have hurt for the writers to have put this detail in the movie. Like the detail about the captain of the Dutchman being freed from the curse.
(Which does raise another question - who would the new captain of the Dutchman be, since the Dutchman must always have a captain, and wouldn't they become captain by stabbing Will's heart?)
posted 06-12-2007 06:41 PM PT (US) HadrianD
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quote:
Originally posted by sean:
Michael, why not mention the way the score worked in the film (this is moviemusic.com)? Even though the music had a terrible mix to begin with, there were a few scenes that I thought were well spotted, like "Up Is Down," "Multiple Jacks," and the latter half of "I Don't Think Now Is The Best Time" (the wedding scene in particular). "Singapore" sounds like we're supposed to see like a massive fleet of war ships (I'm talking a minute into the track) but again the film fails Zimmer's music and got burried in the badly edited fight at Tequila's place.IMO, the score was mixed pretty evenly. I didn't have to strain to hear the music, like in DMC. Of course, we were watching at a new theater so that might have something to do with that.
Also, I thought the brass theme in "Singapore" fit the EITC entrance/attack very well. And the beginning and end to Beckett's descent into hell was really nice, with very intense, in your face scoring that I really enjoyed.posted 06-12-2007 06:45 PM PT (US) sean
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Where art thou, nuts?I have challenged your baby on some points. I expect debate.
:P You posted in the wrong thread, Michael:
http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/015701.htmlposted 06-12-2007 07:25 PM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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Just to clarify here... I didn't mean that Will was freed because Liz was waiting at the SAME island. The bloody island had nothing to do with it.It was the fact that she still loved him and was waiting for his return that broke the curse... unlike Calypso/Jones.
And as far as who would be the new captain... I don't know, but the writers have made it pretty clear that Will doesn't have to die to pass his captaincy on.
posted 06-12-2007 09:49 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by NeoVoyager:
I don't know, but the writers have made it pretty clear that Will doesn't have to die to pass his captaincy on.Was this in some interview the writers did, perhaps? Because I'm really feeling like an idiot for not picking up that detail somewhere in the film.
posted 06-12-2007 09:56 PM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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quote:
Was this in some interview the writers did, perhaps? Because I'm really feeling like an idiot for not picking up that detail somewhere in the film.Sorry, Michael! No need for you to feel like an idiot at all. It really *wasn't* in the film, which is why I found the ending really depressing, until I read a snippet of an interview with the writers (Rossio/Elliot) that responded to the inundation of questions on this topic, saying very plainly that Will is freed after the first 10 years and that the Dutchman will have a new captain.
There ya go!
[Message edited by NeoVoyager on 06-12-2007]
posted 06-12-2007 10:33 PM PT (US) HadrianD
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quote:
Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Was this in some interview the writers did, perhaps? Because I'm really feeling like an idiot for not picking up that detail somewhere in the film.It's part of the Flying Dutchman opera.
posted 06-12-2007 10:35 PM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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quote:
Originally posted by HadrianD:
It's part of the Flying Dutchman opera.[/B]
That too. If I remember correctly, the writers mentioned that fact as well (not as if the movies follow the Flying Dutchman opera anyway, but whatever...).
posted 06-12-2007 10:42 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by NeoVoyager:
Sorry, Michael! No need for you to feel like an idiot at all. It really *wasn't* in the film, which is why I found the ending really depressing, until I read a snippet of an interview with the writers (Rossio/Elliot) that responded to the inundation of questions on this topic, saying very plainly that Will is freed after the first 10 years and that the Dutchman will have a new captain.There ya go!
Thanks for clarification! I wondered whether I'd missed it when Keira's father floats by with a whole lot of exposition, heading for Davy Jones' locker; or that it might have popped up in the second film.posted 06-12-2007 11:30 PM PT (US) Demetris Christodoulides
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CHRIS YOUNG's contributions for SPIDERMAN III sound like a GHOSTRIDER 2 score to me, minus the guitars. And it's a matter of where you're with such a thing as i personally love it.
posted 06-13-2007 11:47 PM PT (US) sean
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quote:
Originally posted by Demetris Christodoulides:
CHRIS YOUNG's contributions for SPIDERMAN III sound like a GHOSTRIDER 2 score to me, minus the guitars. And it's a matter of where you're with such a thing as i personally love it.Say what? Spiders, Pirates, Nicholas Cage with a burning skull; it's all the same, right? I think Demetris got lost in the web (pun ridiculously intended) of moviemusic threads, no?
posted 06-14-2007 12:07 AM PT (US) Camillu
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Finally saw this film today. Had a slightly confusing first half while I tried to remember the plot of 1 and 2, but then very much enjoyed the all-out entertainment of the 2nd half.The 'parlay' scene is quite beautifully done, especially the Morricone homage by Zimmer to complement the Leone homage by Verbinski.
posted 08-21-2007 05:07 PM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB