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Topic: Pirates 3 First Listen
sean
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For some reason I think I'm supposed to like gkgyver, so I'll stay away from insulting him/her. Writing music is what Hans Zimmer does and he does it well, and obviously, he, like any of us and our talents would say the same thing, about being able to do things in his sleep. I'm pretty damn good at hockey, I can play it in my sleep; that doesn't make me arrogant, it's just something people say, it's a figure of speech. You take offence because you actually hate HZ. That's a bit strange. The only composer who's music I consistantly dislike is by Mark Isham, but I don't hate him and wouldn't never call him or his music arrogant. I just don't gravitate to that composer's music, simple as that. I'm still kind of amazed that you would spend all that time listening to the SN podcast and the World's End score when you know you'll hate what you're going to hear, but if it's just for the sake of argument than I'd say you failed miserably at it. Your Zimmer hating posts read like lame Christopher Hitchens articles about Michael Moore: boring, been-there-done-that... now let's move on (I don't see any "passionate" argument coming from you, and Hadrian is right, you clearly have not listened to the score in any meaningful fashion to offer worthy criticism).
posted 05-19-2007 05:29 PM PT (US) Stargate
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Ah... the trouble with Jam..er Hans Zimmer.
posted 05-19-2007 05:31 PM PT (US) Crono/Kyp
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Heaven forbid we actually listen and appreciate...have to rip something to shreds first sign of composer "whatevers."Guess what people...people have style...and there are only to many notes to be played on the scale.
I mean c'mon...
--Brian
posted 05-20-2007 01:30 AM PT (US) Mark Olivarez
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Heavens forbid someone tries to express their opinion around here.
As much praise as Zimmer gets around here there should be room for those that find his music awful.posted 05-20-2007 09:16 AM PT (US) Jeron
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Brian, ha... whatever. People can say what they want, as long as it's not pointless slander. I appreciate opposing opinions if they can be backed up and substantiated with a little education and fact. I suspect some people aren't going to like Pirates 3 music at all. That's okay. That sucks that they can't find something good in it, b/c IMO it truly is the best out of the three, and Zimmer is doing something entertaining here. Zimmer really pulled out all of the stops from his repertoire on this score.
posted 05-20-2007 04:28 PM PT (US) HadrianD
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Olivarez:
Heavens forbid someone tries to express their opinion around here.
As much praise as Zimmer gets around here there should be room for those that find his music awful.I don't have any problem with people having opinions, as long as it is an informed one. From reading his "opinion", he clearly was on the offensive, attacking ideas and comments without even realizing the context in which it was said, while misquoting just to validate his freedom to express his "opinion".
Though I would like to apologize for this post and the previous post. I'm typing quite quickly here in order to catch up with my thoughts, so I know there are glaring grammatical errors.
posted 05-20-2007 04:31 PM PT (US) sean
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Mark, no one has a problem here with expressing opinions, but anyone who does it should be ready for any flak, arguments, opposing perspectives, whatever that'll come their way. I have no problem with someone who hates Hans Zimmer's music, it'd just be nice to read an actual criticism of his music (hell, even those supposedly clever podcasters and writers at FSM have yet to offer anything substantial in that area), rather than just blanket crapping on a score that clearly wasn't listened to with any clarity and an interview ripped apart and read-into for no reason other than to re-establish a prejudice.
posted 05-20-2007 07:30 PM PT (US) nuts_score
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Hey Brian, are you going to post your longer review - the one from the MySpace bulletin - here to share?I just picked up the album today and I plan on giving it a few listens before I write up anything. As of now, I really enjoy it. Too much elitism going on lately, if you ask me.
posted 05-23-2007 11:08 PM PT (US) Crono/Kyp
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Peter's got it.--Brian
posted 05-24-2007 12:11 AM PT (US) sean
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
Hey Brian, are you going to post your longer review - the one from the MySpace bulletin - here to share?I just picked up the album today and I plan on giving it a few listens before I write up anything. As of now, I really enjoy it. Too much elitism going on lately, if you ask me.
Yeah ummmm... man, I'm still waiting on Casino Royale, dude.posted 05-24-2007 07:33 PM PT (US) Crono/Kyp
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Huh?--Brian
posted 05-24-2007 07:57 PM PT (US) nuts_score
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quote:
Originally posted by sean:
Yeah ummmm... man, I'm still waiting on Casino Royale, dude.I know, I know son. My X-Box 360 crapped out on me recently (atop numerous laptop troubles that GeekSquad can't seem to stop) so my shipping costs for the time being will be towards Microsoft; hopefully I'll get this machinery back before BioShock hits. Also, did you know that they just raised postage rates here in the States a ton?!I should've had it to you sooner - and I did send it to you while you were in Australia, though it was sent back to me - so I'm to fault for this one. I'm also still working on getting that rip of the film version of "You Know My Name" so that the album will be whole and filled with yummy joy flavored Bond music. So hold tight my young Canadian partner-in-crime. I'm also responding to your email in regards to The Thunderous Earth/Midway so keep an eye out. You'll have your package by July, me thinks.
And, Bri, don't worry about being confused; it wasn't meant for the whole board.
posted 05-24-2007 09:54 PM PT (US) Jeron
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
And, Bri, don't worry about being confused; it wasn't meant for the whole board.Yeah Brian. Duh. Hence the paragraph-long reply to sean... err... on the board. =/
posted 05-24-2007 11:00 PM PT (US) Crono/Kyp
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Nutty,GeekSquad SUCKS.
--Bri
posted 05-25-2007 12:02 AM PT (US) Crono/Kyp
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http://www.moviemusic.com/comments.asp?mm=piratesofthecaribbean3&author=28There ya go Nutty
--Brian
posted 05-25-2007 12:10 AM PT (US) nuts_score
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quote:
Originally posted by Crono/Kyp:
Nutty,GeekSquad SUCKS.
--Bri
Well, I realize that now. One of my close friends from high school works for the GeekSquad so he promised to take care of me . . . he didn't do so well.
And, sorry about the paragraph response to only one member. I just figured I'd get it out of the way.
Now back to Pirates: I'm seeing the film over the weekend or on Monday so I'll share my thoughtss on both come that time. But this score is better than DaVinci and I think DaVinci is one of Zimmer's crownging works; I don't care what the Zimmer-bashers have to say.
posted 05-25-2007 10:44 AM PT (US) Crono/Kyp
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Yeah, DaVinci was meh, except for the second to last cue--Brian
posted 05-25-2007 10:50 AM PT (US) gkgyver
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quote:
The fact that you even say that the 11th track "I Don't Think Now Is the Best Time" sounds ripped out from DMC (from "Wheels Of Fortune") means to me that you didn't even listen to the score at all. Or maybe you just listened to it while inhaling something out of a crack pipe.Well, first of all, I never said the *whole* track was ripped from *Wheel Of Fortune*, I just said *parts* of it are directly ripped from *Dead Man's Chest* (which they ARE), so maybe *you* could spend a little more time reading my posts. But maybe you were inhaling something out of a crack pipe.
I could even give you the exact timings if you kindly ask me (I don't have the tracks in my head, forgive me for not distinctly remembering a cue in between all the horn blares).quote:
The AWE theme too much like Tara's theme? Not even close to that bombast. Having a couple of note flourish doesn't make it a rip off, if that. Obvious Hans would know what an "old fashion" Hollywood theme would sound likeOh, would he? Maybe just like he knows what "swashbuckling music" (a term that he brought in to describe AWE by the way; that wasn't me) sounds like?
Excuse me, but that gesture is amongst the most famous (if not the most famous) themes of movie history. It was played in countless TV shows and TV ads, and more than once to a goofy effect, so everyone knows that theme, and I doubt that it will have a positive effect on the audience. It looks like a bad deodorant ad.Erm, sorry, I just realised: did you just say that Tara's Theme is more bombastic than Zimmer's overblown love theme?
quote:
"Up is Down" seems to serve the need of the film more when you think about the context of the scene. And Hans described it as an "good old fashion, swashbuckling, irish jig type...but of craziness".Yes he did ...
yes ... he did.
quote:
"Singapore" doesn't sound too Asian while it is Asian to a point. And he said this in the pod cast. "I tried to do something that wasn't a normal parody of Chinese music".First of all, I always chuckle when Zimmer uses the term "I wrote". But that's just a side note.
Why does Asian music always have to be either a parody or desperately try not to sound "too chinese"? Can't you just write, what a radical though, quality asian music?quote:
You seem to know very well "the needs of the film". You must be both Gore Verbinsky and Jerry Bruckheimer.Being called Jerry Bruckheimer or Gore Verbinsky doesn't give you a good ear. Which is probably the reason why Zimmer is a favourite of him.
I don't know what Bruckheimer or Verbinsky had in mind, I just know that it doesn't sound right.quote:
And you can start work on the score since last October as long as you take breaks in between to work on other scores. He started writing the Main Theme suite in October, not writing "to the movie".I could say "where's the difference", but that would be too low a blow.
Several months of figuring out the main themes are more than enough to get the obvious similarities out of the way.
And I recall Zimmer saying that they didn't take days off on Christmas, so obviously they must have been fairly deep in the working process by then.quote:
I think you're so full of hate for the man that you can get past that hate to hear and comprehend what you're listening to.Comprehension is irrelevant when you have a headache.
posted 05-25-2007 01:04 PM PT (US) nuts_score
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quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Being called Jerry Bruckheimer or Gore Verbinsky doesn't give you a good ear. Which is probably the reason why Zimmer is a favourite of him.
I don't know what Bruckheimer or Verbinsky had in mind, I just know that it doesn't sound right.You know that it doesn't sound right?! Looks like I get to mark another absurd comment down in my book of absurd comments that people make on film music message boards. I only have three now, including yours, but I'm hoping to have a book published by the end of my lifetime.
And why does it seem that anytime someone makes a comment in arguement against someone elses, the other person is assumed to be smoking from a crack pipe? WTF?!
posted 05-26-2007 03:09 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
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quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Goldwasser also writes about Davy Jones' theme that "you won't recognise it if you don't know what it was".While I know it's not what he meant, there are many themes that you wouldn't recognise if you didn't know them... Yes, quite a few.
posted 05-26-2007 03:27 PM PT (US) Stargate
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
I only have three now, including yours, but I'm hoping to have a book published by the end of my lifetime.
I'm curious to know what the other two are?
posted 05-26-2007 05:46 PM PT (US) HadrianD
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quote:
Originally posted by nuts_score:
And why does it seem that anytime someone makes a comment in arguement against someone elses, the other person is assumed to be smoking from a crack pipe? WTF?!FYI, I regret that comment. It made me sound as biased as he is
posted 05-26-2007 11:44 PM PT (US) HadrianD
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quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Well, first of all, I never said the *whole* track was ripped from *Wheel Of Fortune*, I just said *parts* of it are directly ripped from *Dead Man's Chest* (which they ARE), so maybe *you* could spend a little more time reading my posts. But maybe you were inhaling something out of a crack pipe.
I could even give you the exact timings if you kindly ask me (I don't have the tracks in my head, forgive me for not distinctly remembering a cue in between all the horn blares).
If you were to compare the tracks' content, you will hear that the orchestrations are different. The only thing that all the score share is, amazingly enough, thematic contents. I think even the two Star Wars trilogy and LOTR did the same thing.... hmmm.quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:Oh, would he? Maybe just like he knows what "swashbuckling music" (a term that he brought in to describe AWE by the way; that wasn't me) sounds like?
Excuse me, but that gesture is amongst the most famous (if not the most famous) themes of movie history. It was played in countless TV shows and TV ads, and more than once to a goofy effect, so everyone knows that theme, and I doubt that it will have a positive effect on the audience. It looks like a bad deodorant ad.Erm, sorry, I just realised: did you just say that Tara's Theme is more bombastic than Zimmer's overblown love theme?
I think that most of the Golden Age swashbuckling was very bombastic, though not in a negative way. Tara's theme is very beautiful, but it was one of many "similar" Golden Age period score. You think Zimmer's theme is overblown, that fine, but in term of what the POTC movies are, it's perfect. It's pitch perfect for the movie. vestigial artifact from the Golden Age score, not Tara's theme. Something that points toward the classic overwrought love themes rather than a direct lift. Listen again.
I guess you must have seen the movie that make the deodorant ad comment. Bravo to you for another ignorant comment.
quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:First of all, I always chuckle when Zimmer uses the term "I wrote". But that's just a side note.
Why does Asian music always have to be either a parody or desperately try not to sound "too chinese"? Can't you just write, what a radical thought, quality asian music?Why?
1. I find it interesting that you said John William "interwoven" chinese music into the western compositional style for a movie about a Geisha.
2. It's true that what Hans wrote is more akin to traditional Chinese music than it had to be, but only in passing. You hear some traditional Chinese instruments playing classic Chinese tones but then the percussion elements does modern accompaniments. Hans was writing a theme that suits a character (Sao Feng) and location (Singpore) while providing a modern subtext of the movie (fun and rock & roll), just like the movie. To do other wise would have been inadequate. This stuff doesn't last anymore than 2 minute
3. The last score to sound remotely "Chinese" for more than 2 minute was The Last Emperor and those "Chinese" portion was written by David Byrne(!).quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
I don't know what Bruckheimer or Verbinsky had in mind, I just know that it doesn't sound right.Okay. You know best.
quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
I could say "where's the difference", but that would be too low a blow.
But at least you went for the easy low and not the difficult high.quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Several months of figuring out the main themes are more than enough to get the obvious similarities out of the way.
And I recall Zimmer saying that they didn't take days off on Christmas, so obviously they must have been fairly deep in the working process by then.Sure, maybe, why not. Let's guess some more.
quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Comprehension is irrelevant when you have a headache.You forgot to add "...and a closed, biased, mind". I got more headaches from listening to one expanded Cutthroat Island CD, than to the three POTC CD. Talk about getting your ears being pounded by anvils Though I jest.
You have your bias and I respect that. Your conjectures are fun, though your criticisms are more rooted in closedmindedness partiality than it is in objectivity. I guess we can't help being like that sometime.
posted 05-27-2007 01:26 AM PT (US) Quill
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Listening to the score at the moment while I read through this hilarious thread.I have a special place for Zimmer in my mind, much like a I do for all composers. I acknowledge that his music will not be hailed as compositional masterpieces, but funny, he doesn't seem to care. He's right after all, look at what he is writing music for. I for one am consistently entertained by his work.
After 5 years of posting here, I am continually amused by how rampant the criticism goes, particularly when it comes to questioning the producers and the application of film to their vision. Of course, the arm-chair producer in all of us could make more enlightened decisions...I suppose that is the burden we all must shoulder.
Oh well, listening to At Wit's End right now...energetic, entertaining, with some good new material (which is important in the 3rd part of a trilogy.)
I will continue to give every composer the benefit of the doubt with each new release. I will criticize my original favorite, Horner, if we puts out another, not jump on the Williams ass-kissing bandwagon with every new "masterpiece", and acknowledge a sub-par effort from Heir Zimmer.
As for At World's End...well worth the $9.99 I paid for it, and perfectly suited to its purpose.
posted 05-27-2007 09:31 AM PT (US) NeoVoyager
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I finally picked up this score on Friday, and had a chance to listen to it at least twice through yesterday. I'm not at all a Zimmer fan, and most of his work gets little more than a roll of the eyes from me... but some credit has to be given here, I believe.One of those new themes that Hans wrote for this third film is absolutely amazing in its emotional power... close to Powell's Phoenix theme from X-Men 3. It shows that he worked on these themes for quite a while. Also, the "Hoist the Colours" theme and the rest of the love theme variants are uniformly good.
While I *still* can't quite bring myself to like Hans Zimmer's style (I think I'm just too classically trained, and I'll never be able to wrap my head around it), there is some very quality writing in this score. Comparisons to the Golden Age swashbuckling scores are pretentious at best, but it's a good piece of work in its own right. Once I stopped hoping that Hans would break free of his usual musical style, I found that this can be a very fun and enjoyable score.
Sometimes I think we "high-class" music listeners need to just lighten up and try to enjoy the good qualities in music... regardless of whom it's written by. I respect people's opinions, but when someone like Mr. Clemmensen gives this score a 2-star rating, I have to call that for what it is: outright snobbery.
I wasn't looking forward to this score at all, but I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised. I stand corrected.
Edit: Yes, Hadrian... I can't even bear to listen to my non-expanded CutThroat Island CD in one sitting. Anyone who says PotC gives them a headache must necessarily say the same about CTI.
[Message edited by NeoVoyager on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 09:34 AM PT (US) gkgyver
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So, I'm extremely biased and you're not ... riiiight!
One is biased as soon as one likes or dislikes something, that's not something negative.quote:
If you were to compare the tracks' content, you will hear that the orchestrations are different."Different" is relative. If a piece is rhythmically monotone, lacking any substance and sense of performance, to a point where a great deal of variation isn't even possible, then it makes little difference whether violins or french horns are being used.
quote:
Okay. You know best.Yes, just like you "know" that AWE is a subtle nod to the Golden Age.
Of course, also the term "subtle" is relative. If you listen to heavy metal, or similar scores in the Zimmer bombast all the time, AWE will sound as subtle as anything.quote:
I guess you must have seen the movie that make the deodorant ad comment. Bravo to you for another ignorant comment.I think you have to learn the difference between snappy and ignorant. You only call it ignorant because you don't see it that way.
quote:
It's pitch perfect for the movie. vestigial artifact from the Golden Age score, not Tara's theme. Something that points toward the classic overwrought love themes rather than a direct lift.Are you in all honesty saying that this score presents artifacts from the Golden Age? Excuse me, but this comment is so utterly nauseating that I really have to pull myself together to not immediately run and hold my head over the toilet.
quote:
Listen again.Oh no.
quote:
You forgot to add "...and a closed, biased, mind". I got more headaches from listening to one expanded Cutthroat Island CD, than to the three POTC CD. Talk about getting your ears being pounded by anvils Though I jest.Yes, opposed to getting clubbed over the head with FULL ORCHESTRA in fff ALL THE TIME.
It's funny that you should talk about close-mindedness. If you would get a book about music theory, I bet you'd aquire all the knowledge Zimmer has in about a month.posted 05-27-2007 10:05 AM PT (US) nuts_score
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Oh brother!GK, it seems you're at wit's end here (pun fully intended).
What bias is HadrianD sporting in his reply post? I don't recall him using lines like, "Zimmer can outscore Williams, Horner, and Shore . . . and do it in his sleep!" because, frankly, he has no reason to. I don't ever recall any previous vitriolic rants that you've shed against Zimmer (if you even have at all, but your entire spirit on this thread seems to be a grudge). The case in point is this, you can't put any BIAS you have aside and enjoy the music that Zimmer, as a composer, has created for you and us, the music and film fans. Who cares if it's not as "great" as Cutthroat Island in your opinion? Taken with Dead Man's Chest, I think it's better than CTI, and I've been known to throw down against Zimmer and share my love for Debney's score. The thing is, I don't want Zimmer's pirates scores to sound like pirate scores of old, because these pirate films simply aren't classic swashbucklers. They are inventive, imaginative, comedic, adventure-filled fantasy action films; and they are some of the best around these days. The Pirates films are the only thing I've enjoyed thus far in Jerry Bruckheimer's catalog of dull, point-and-plotless action pictures. They have incredibly structured plots which reach deep into their own mythos, no other films do that today; even Jackson's LotR trilogy struggled at such an attemt, even if it was largely successful due to Shore's diverse, intelligent, and brave scoring. I want Zimmer to deliver a fun and energetic score that doesn't devoid itself into "by-the-numbers" swashbuckling. I'll listen to the masterpice The Sea Hawk by Korngold for that, as I do often (and it's better that CTI and Pirates, btw). You seem to gain no joy from a score that was meant to entertain, and that's a shame. Take the headphones out of your butthole and put them to your ears, you might hear something you like amidst Zimmer's most complex work yet.
posted 05-27-2007 11:06 AM PT (US) CaptPorridge
Non-Standard Userer
quote:
Listen to Memoirs Of A Geisha and hear how delicate chinese music can be interwoven with our music styles.Just a hunch but I think Williams probably modelled his score more on Japanese music.
Yes I know the lead actress was Chinese, but the film was set in Japan and geishas are uniquely Japanese.
posted 05-27-2007 12:08 PM PT (US) StarlessWinter
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The Pirates scores are only meant to entertain. Why do so many people judge them on an orchestrational, technical level? They are meant to fit an entertaining movie, not fit the desires of classical-loving listeners who want everything to sound the same, either like Howard Shore or like the classic movies. And some people are so biased they mentally tell themselves that anything done by someone they don't like is utterly horrible. Even I, who loves Lord of the Rings films and music so dearly, can find my faults with it. The same for things I don't like; they have their moments. It is not fair to say that everything Zimmer does is horrible (which might not be true, but sounds like according to certain posts here), when that same poster seemingly praises everything Shore does on another thread.
posted 05-27-2007 01:34 PM PT (US) gkgyver
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Quite frankly, I'm shocked by the amount of disrespect for "the classic movies" that is being displayed here.quote:
I want Zimmer to deliver a fun and energetic score that doesn't devoid itself into "by-the-numbers" swashbuckling.That's nice for you.
So instead, you want a score that slips very quickly into the "by-the-numbers" Zimmer style?quote:
The case in point is this, you can't put any BIAS you have aside and enjoy the music that Zimmer, as a composer, has created for you and us, the music and film fans.Let me quote one of my earlier posts in this very thread:
"I'm cautiously optimistic about this one. But this is just like a trailer. The trailer for Star Wars made the films look spectacular, and look how they turned out."
Nothing more needs to be said on my part. Those clips sounded good, but Zimmer just isn't able to thoroughly design and balance music.
Funny thing, I agree with you about the Pirates Of The Caribbean movies, I think they are terrific and I've enjoyed them immensely. But just because they are no pure pirate movies, but modern action adventures, doesn't mean a composer can't add style on top of them. How did Bernard Herrmann put it: "You can't revive a corpse, but you can dress it up nicely."
quote:
They have incredibly structured plots which reach deep into their own mythos, no other films do that today; even Jackson's LotR trilogy struggled at such an attemt,But you realise LotR had that mythos from the beginning, don't you?
LotR has an enormous background that the movie oozes in every scene. And PotC is a *little* far away from that.quote:
You seem to gain no joy from a score that was meant to entertain, and that's a shame. Take the headphones out of your butthole and put them to your ears, you might hear something you like amidst Zimmer's most complex work yet.Okay, couple of things ...
First of all, all film scores are meant to be enjoyed (though in numerous ways), but not all of them succeed. That's not a shame, that keeps the business alive.
Secondly, that AWE is Zimmer's most complex work yet is correct, but just because Zimmer discovered the instruments of a standard orchestra, and found out that they actually have some range, doesn't mean we all have to bow to his "genius".Ironically, by telling me to shut up and enjoy Zimmer's work, you're not any better than you accuse me of being.
I could tell you just the same: pull the headphones out of your butthole and put them on, then you might realise that Zimmer's music is objectively overly simplistic, über-melodramatic, badly orchestrated, and questionably mixed.quote:
The Pirates scores are only meant to entertain. Why do so many people judge them on an orchestrational, technical level?So, you're saying, entertaining scores don't need to be well orchestrated? That's just absurd! I know I'll get one hell of a beating for this, but only people with little to no knowledge of the subject matter, or people who like the rubbish that's flooding the charts, or people who simply don't care, could possibly listen to and enjoy Zimmer's "one size fits all" on a regular basis.
That sounds rough, but otherwise you can't explain why there are many reviews by listeners who praise AWE as the best soundtrack ever, and why "professional" reviews in newspapers thoroughly like Zimmer's scores, whereas soundtracks like "The Good German" or "Lady In The Water" are described as (and I quote!) "monotone and boring". Only someone who doesn't understand the finer and refined forms of film music (or music in general) can write something like that. Hans Zimmer's music operates on such a simplistic niveau that you'd have to be truly demented not to be able to understand it.
That Zimmer's albums are bestsellers doesn't mean his music is any good, it just means more people are able to understand it. And Zimmer achieves that, intentionally or not, by dwelling in the most simplistic, populistic musical realm possible. Many people like his music because rhythmically and stylistically, it's alot closer to popular music than classical film music. So, the thinking process isn't "This is good film music", but "Ah, so this is what film music sounds like". They like, or even love it, and they think they love film music, but all they love is Hans Zimmer's music. And this leads to the same people disliking far superior works like The Good German or Lady In The Water, because they don't understand and can't follow them. How could they, when they are used to Zimmer's über-harmonic shallowness?But I digress.
quote:
They are meant to fit an entertaining movie, not fit the desires of classical-loving listeners who want everything to sound the same, either like Howard Shore or like the classic movies.You see, these comments really upset me. That "entertaining movies" and classically influenced music are supposedly polar opposites is complete nonsense. Even a completely unmusical guy, when you play him two samples, can tell that a piece by Williams, Goldsmith, Elfman and likes does not only sound just as entertaining as Zimmer's music, but also more sophisticated. Cues by the named composers may not sound as entertaining as pop music, but film music was also never meant to be like that.
Nobody wants everything to sound the same or "like Howard Shore", that's idiotic. All I want is music that sounds diverse, is balanced, individually conceived for every film, changes its pace and rhythm from time to time, and that is in general written and orchestrated by some competent individual that at least knows how to write music without computers and ghostwriters.
But apparently, that's too much to ask for.It's most ironic that a defender of Hans Zimmer accuses other people of "wanting everything to sound the same". I could laugh ... almost.
quote:
It is not fair to say that everything Zimmer does is horrible (which might not be true, but sounds like according to certain posts here), when that same poster seemingly praises everything Shore does on another thread.I do understand that subtle nod. And no, not everything Hans Zimmer does is terrible. As quoted above, I was mildly optimistic about AWE. I also think The Da Vinci Code has its moments. The problem is not each Zimmer score taken individually, it's the whole package. His work in the past 10 years is derivative and predictable to the extreme. I mean, when I listen to King Arthur, or Gladiator, or Dead Man's Chest, it all mushes together.
Where exactly did you read that I praise everything Howard Shore does? Did you scan through all 60+ pages? I don't think so.And, putting aside for a minute that Howard Shore has a thematic and introspective kind of writing down that Hans Zimmer is miles away from, I don't praise "everything Shore does". Indeed I love LotR and think it's the biggest achievement in film music of the past 50 years, but that doesn't justify such an outright stupid statement.
The Last Mimzy is kind of a let down, and scores like eXistenZ (something like that) are hard to get used to.Plus, Howard Shore isn't nearly as bold in his statements as certain other composers mentioned in this thread (can you guess who?) are, and that helps his music alot.
He does it instead of constantly blabbering about the "crazy" thoughts one had about the music that don't show in the finished product.I'm more than willing to leave everyone his personal taste, but then they shouldn't be surprised and upset (I didn't start the personal comments) that someone comes up to them and tells them how horribly wrong they could be.
Liking bad music isn't wrong, it just gets insufferable when it starts to get praised.God, I miss Lou Goldberg ...
posted 05-27-2007 04:25 PM PT (US) StarlessWinter
Non-Standard Userer
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Quite frankly, I'm shocked by the amount of disrespect for "the classic movies" that is being displayed here.I am not at all disrespecting classical movies. It just seems like so many people on these boards, and in general, (not accusing you, though) think classical movies and scores will never be topped. I just don't get it; it's like they're refusing to move forward. Again, it SEEMS like.
So, you're saying, entertaining scores don't need to be well orchestrated? That's just absurd! I know I'll get one hell of a beating for this, but only people with little to no knowledge of the subject matter, or people who like the rubbish that's flooding the charts, or people who simply don't care, could possibly listen to and enjoy Zimmer's "one size fits all" on a regular basis.
That sounds rough, but otherwise you can't explain why there are many reviews by listeners who praise AWE as the best soundtrack ever, and why "professional" reviews in newspapers thoroughly like Zimmer's scores, whereas soundtracks like "The Good German" or "Lady In The Water" are described as (and I quote!) "monotone and boring". Only someone who doesn't understand the finer and refined forms of film music (or music in general) can write something like that. Hans Zimmer's music operates on such a simplistic niveau that you'd have to be truly demented not to be able to understand it.
That Zimmer's albums are bestsellers doesn't mean his music is any good, it just means more people are able to understand it. And Zimmer achieves that, intentionally or not, by dwelling in the most simplistic, populistic musical realm possible. Many people like his music because rhythmically and stylistically, it's alot closer to popular music than classical film music. So, the thinking process isn't "This is good film music", but "Ah, so this is what film music sounds like". They like, or even love it, and they think they love film music, but all they love is Hans Zimmer's music. And this leads to the same people disliking far superior works like The Good German or Lady In The Water, because they don't understand and can't follow them. How could they, when they are used to Zimmer's über-harmonic shallowness?But I disgress.
I am not saying that classics are not entertaining. To me, though, their orchestrational style is not enjoyable. I just happen to enjoy modern scores much more. They are more exciting. And I'm not saying that entertaining scores don't need to be well orchestrated; I'm saying that people with musical knowledge pick them apart too much. It seems like they use the types of orchestration they don't like to say that the scores are bad. Why can't you just enjoy them for their themes or their emotion or just pure excitement, not run them down because there are too many horns in that song or the notes are similar here to a theme from another movie? And I am not one of the people who thinks Zimmer's music is the only good film music. In fact, I like little of what he writes. Pirates just happens to fit into my realm of likeable music. James Newton Howard and his "Lady in the Water" is one of my favorite scores, and I do think it is superior to "Pirates". DMC's score was not all that great to me. But AWE does move into another level; it is more romantic and emotional than the other Pirate's scores. Very little of it is reused material; it is almost all new orchestration.
You see, these comments really upset me. That "entertaining movies" and classically influenced music are supposedly polar opposites is complete nonsense. Even a completely unmusical guy, when you play him two samples, can tell that a piece by Williams, Goldsmith, Elfman and likes does not only sound just as entertaining as Zimmer's music, but also more sophisticated. Cues by the named composers may not sound as entertaining as pop music, but film music was also never meant to be like that.
Nobody wants everything to sound the same or "like Howard Shore", that's idiotic. All I want is music that sounds diverse, is balanced, individually conceived for every film, changes its pace and rhythm from time to time, and that is in general written and orchestrated by some competent individual that at least knows how to write music without computers and ghostwriters.
But apparently, that's too much to ask for.It's most ironic that a defender of Hans Zimmer accuses other people of "wanting everything to sound the same". I could laugh ... almost.
Classical music and entertaining music are not polar oppposites. However, classical music usually makes one think of like "Nutcracker" stuff, very sophisticated. What I mean with entertaining music is that Pirates is not meant to sophisticated, so the music should not sound very proper like classical music. It's a wild, fast, enjoyable ride just like the story. Again, I am not defending Zimmer at all, just this score. I do not generally like Zimmer. But I do have to say about John William, I do not always find him sophisticated. I can ALWAYS tell when I am listening to a John Williams score. I think he has no diversity. All his scores are a theme, really fast music, the theme again, really fast music, another theme, really fast music, and so on in the same cue. No development.
I do understand that subtle nod. And no, not everything Hans Zimmer does is terrible. As quoted above, I was mildly optimistic about AWE. I also think The Da Vinci Code has its moments. The problem is not each Zimmer score taken individually, it's the whole package. His work in the past 10 years is derivative and predictable to the extreme. I mean, when I listen to King Arthur, or Gladiator, or Dead Man's Chest, it all mushes together.
Where exactly did you read that I praise everything Howard Shore does? Did you scan through all 60+ pages? I don't think so.And, putting aside for a minute that Howard Shore has a thematic and introspective kind of writing down that Hans Zimmer is miles away from, I don't praise "everything Shore does". Indeed I love LotR and think it's the biggest achievement in film music of the past 50 years, but that doesn't justify such an outright stupid statement.
The Last Mimzy is kind of a let down, and scores like eXistenZ (something like that) are hard to get used to.Plus, Howard Shore isn't nearly as bold in his statements as certain other composers mentioned in this thread (can you guess who?) are, and that helps his music alot.
He does it instead of constantly blabbering about the "crazy" thoughts one had about the music that don't show in the finished product.I'm more than willing to leave everyone his personal taste, but then they shouldn't be surprised and upset (I didn't start the personal comments) that someone comes up to them and tells them how horribly wrong they could be.
Liking bad music isn't wrong, it just gets insufferable when it starts to get praised.God, I miss Lou Goldberg ...
Well, I agree with you on Shore and LoTR. But I don't think that AWE is bad music. I'm not sure if you are or not...you seem to be criticizing it, but then saying you are optimistic..not sure what your final thoughts are.
[Message edited by StarlessWinter on 05-27-2007]
[Message edited by StarlessWinter on 05-27-2007]
[Message edited by StarlessWinter on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 04:55 PM PT (US) Dinko
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
God, I miss Lou Goldberg ...We all do. But he and you on the same topic would make the thread look like a Zimmer score sounds: endless and repetitive.
And just for the fun of it, I agree with you about Zimmer's work being simplistic, badly orchestrated, über-melodramatic and questionably mixed. But I'll disagree about all of it sounding the same: I just can't picture King Arthur in Last Samurai or Broken Arrow in Gladiator. And while I'll be the first to bemoan the loss of the great classically-trained composer, and the resulting sad fact that such massively talented individuals as Bruce Broughton or Lee Holdridge will never achieve greatness, I'll also be the first to give Hans Zimmer credit for raising my interest in film music beyond the Star Trek and Star Wars scores.
quote:
Originally posted by StarlessWinter:
They are meant to fit an entertaining movie, not fit the desires of classical-loving listeners who want everything to sound the same, either like Howard Shore or like the classic movies.
I take you haven't heard much classical music or many classic film scores...
posted 05-27-2007 05:04 PM PT (US) gkgyver
Standard Userer
quote:
It just seems like so many people on these boards, and in general, (not accusing you, though) think classical movies and scores will never be topped. I just don't get it; it's like they're refusing to move forward.What exactly are composers like Zimmer moving forward to? They spend hours in their facilities programming to recreate an instrument, and the thought never occurs to them that it would be alot easier to hand a musician the notes and let him play them.
quote:
I'm not sure if you are or not...you seem to be criticizing it, but then saying you are optimistic..not sure what your final thoughts are.All I said was that earlier in this thread, I wrote that based on the clips, I was cautiouly optimistic about AWE, and that's why it's so absurd that folks like nuts_score accuse me of blindly hating any given Zimmer score.
There are far worse ones than AWE, like Pearl Harbour or King Arthur, but that doesn't mean AWE is not far less than average.quote:
What I mean with entertaining music is that Pirates is not meant to sophisticated, so the music should not sound very proper like classical music. It's a wild, fast, enjoyable ride just like the story.All I'm saying is that you can write entertaining music with a symphony orchestra, and not fall back to lines and melodies that seem to be ripped out of a children's song book for Christmas. Even those songs can sound pretty heroic and melodramatic if you just inject enough orchestral cliché.
quote:
Classical music and entertaining music are not polar oppposites. However, classical music usually makes one think of like "Nutcracker" stuff, very sophisticated.Well, the thing is ... how can I put this? You bring up the Nutcracker as an example, but you could take anything. Those pieces, like "Valse Des Fleurs" for instance, are self-contained musical constructs, and so it's hard to compare it to film music because film music never, or rarely, consists of such self-contained pieces.
And yet, you can take it as a comparison because Hans Zimmer also likes to arrange his albums in concert suite form. The last four tracks (I think) on the Da Vinci Code album were written by him as one piece (according to him) for example.
And yet, I would take Valse Des Fleurs over any Zimmer suite any day, since it's more imaginative writing, rhythmically more interesting, not to mention the musical mastery.
This is a very sloppy comparison, but it shows that Zimmer's scores are, in short, simply no good music.quote:
But I do have to say about John William, I do not always find him sophisticated. I can ALWAYS tell when I am listening to a John Williams score. I think he has no diversity. All his scores are a theme, really fast music, the theme again, really fast music, another theme, really fast music, and so on in the same cue. No development.WHAT? I'm sorry, but that Williams has no diversity doesn't stand a chance at closer examination. You have Close Encounters, The Lost World, Terminal, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Memoirs Of A Geisha, Munich, Harry Potter, War Of The Worlds, Star Wars, Temple Of Doom, all of which are vastly different in style.
And every composer should be recognisable by people who have a little knowledge, that's a sign of great talent.
That new age John Williams' action music with its wild violin runs and flute punctuations are highly non-thematic, this is undoubtly true. But not everything in a score has to be thematic. In fact, I think it's one of Zimmer's biggest mistakes that every piece of his has a melodic line that never breaks. That makes his music, his resolutions utterly predictable and robs it of any surprises.
And John Williams is the master of thematic development. Development not only lies in the theme itself, but how it's used, in which setting, with which orchestration, in which meter, in which key. John Williams' themes sound effortless, they flow in a natural way, and they seem, as he calls it, inevitable. But that is a painstaking process.
Where is the development in PotC? The variation? Jack's heroic theme has the same tempo, the same orchestration, the same dynamics, from his first appearance in Pirates 1, to the last statement in Pirates 3. Every theme is so static that it can barely survive in different settings.quote:
Why can't you just enjoy them for their themes or their emotion or just pure excitement, not run them down because there are too many horns in that song or the notes are similar here to a theme from another movie?Because there's more to emotion and excitement than what Zimmer can offer here. Emotion doesn't come from a schmaltzy violin/horn (it's got to be one or the other ...) theme, and excitement doesn't come from strings mindlessly chopping underneath the schmaltzy violin/horn theme. You have to look at a scene, feel it, understand its heart, and then have the knowledge how to put that down onto paper. You have to look at the film, and find its spirit, its specific character, and then translate that into music. And this is the point where Zimmer almost always fails.
It's not just that he uses "too much horn in this song", it's his way of using the same motifs, the same, exactly the same, orchestration in every single movie he does. It's everything, like I said before, predictable to a point where 30 second samples are enough really to get a picture of the whole score.
And I know about guilty pleasures, trust me. I believe I'm the only person in the world who finds the scores to the first two Pokémon movies, if not musically good, still appealing.Anyway, I really don't feel like talking about AWE anymore. It's redundant.
But thank you, StarlessWinter, for at least talking normally, and not immediately whipping things at people's heads that border on personal insults.posted 05-27-2007 06:02 PM PT (US) nuts_score
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Quite frankly, I'm shocked by the amount of disrespect for "the classic movies" that is being displayed here.Where is the disrespect for classic movies? I'm certainly not following you there.
quote:
That's nice for you.
So instead, you want a score that slips very quickly into the "by-the-numbers" Zimmer style?Very few times do I catch Zimmer's AWE score slipping into "by-the-numbers" Zimmer, there is some inventive and playful orchestration going on here; now I realize that you must've heard a different score.
quote:
Those clips sounded good, but Zimmer just isn't able to thoroughly design and balance music.Funny thing, I agree with you about the Pirates Of The Caribbean movies, I think they are terrific and I've enjoyed them immensely. But just because they are no pure pirate movies, but modern action adventures, doesn't mean a composer can't add style on top of them. How did Bernard Herrmann put it: "You can't revive a corpse, but you can dress it up nicely."
So are you judging the entire score based on the SoundtrackNet clips? I'm confused now.
I'm pleased to see that you enjoy the films, but I'm not quite sure what you speak of when saying that Zimmer refuses to add style to his pirate film. Again, you've clearly heard a different score; perhaps the wrong one?
quote:
But you realise LotR had that mythos from the beginning, don't you?
LotR has an enormous background that the movie oozes in every scene. And PotC is a *little* far away from that.I read Tolkien's books when I was a young teen; however, I found myself more engrossed in the story of The Hobbit. And while I'm not claiming that Jackon's Rings films aren't technical achievements, I don't think much else of them beyond that point. After the initial success of FotR (in itself, quite a classic), he seemed to want aim higher, but being a Kiwi kid with a shlock-horror background, he didn't know when to stop aiming (this same thing happened to Sam Raimi just a few weeks ago) and Tolkien's mythos was lost amongst the rubble. Jackson's films are not a staggering example of how to adapt a work of literature. As much as I don't care for the books as well, his films are inferior.
quote:
. . . that AWE is Zimmer's most complex work yet is correct, but just because Zimmer discovered the instruments of a standard orchestra, and found out that they actually have some range, doesn't mean we all have to bow to his "genius".No one here is claiming Zimmer to be a "genius" because we ALL know he is not. You don't have to bow to anything that you made up. He just happened to knock this score - and a lot of people's expectations - out of the park.
quote:
Ironically, by telling me to shut up and enjoy Zimmer's work, you're not any better than you accuse me of being.
I could tell you just the same: pull the headphones out of your butthole and put them on, then you might realise that Zimmer's music is objectively overly simplistic, über-melodramatic, badly orchestrated, and questionably mixed.While not exactly telling you to shut up, I was asking for you to listen with a fresh ear; but at this point in the thread it's pointless. Despite my drawbacks against Zimmer and his MV/Remote Control crew, I still start each listening with a fresh ear, free of any bias I might hold against any composer (I might have enjoyed The New World and All the Kings Men less had I not).
quote:
Liking bad music isn't wrong, it just gets insufferable when it starts to get praised.Welcome to the 21st Century. We're at the tailend of the MTV Revolution and now we're stuck with an entire generation who likes nothing but crappy music. And, myself not being as kind as you, liking bad music should be a punishable crime. Unfortunately, at my young age I have to be shoehorned in with them when looking at statistics. If Zimmer is the worst of your troubles, than you really haven't heard any bad music at all.
And for the record, I love, love, love The Good German and Lady in the Water. They are just as complex as the score being discussed here, and will be listened to long into my life. Why can't I love Zimmer's At World's End music too?
NP> Anne Dudley's Black Book (***/*****)[Message edited by nuts_score on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 06:15 PM PT (US) nuts_score
Standard Userer
And the only diversity that Williams has is outside of his action music. Why some consider him to be a God is still a question that haunts me to no end. Sure he's good, but better than Herrmann, Waxman, Morricone and even Goldenthal he is not.And I'll add the Maestro Jerry himself to my list above. I just finished watching Planet of the Apes here on DVD and, to say the least, nobody does it better!
[Message edited by nuts_score on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 06:26 PM PT (US) gkgyver
Standard Userer
quote:
While not exactly telling you to shut up, I was asking for you to listen with a fresh ear; but at this point in the thread it's pointless. Despite my drawbacks against Zimmer and his MV/Remote Control crew, I still start each listening with a fresh ear, free of any bias I might hold against any composerI'm really tired of repeating over and over that I'm not biased towards anyone, and I won't.
But listening with a "fresh ear" is impossible. You can't un-hear a score. I listen to AWE and one MV score after the other pops up in your head.
You may not be bothered by that, but anyone who doesn't want more of the same for the umptiest time leaves AWE unimpressed, or even annoyed.And for that reason I'm going to shut up now.
quote:
Why some consider him to be a God is still a question that haunts me to no end.Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. At last, everything makes sense.
[Message edited by gkgyver on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 06:26 PM PT (US) SPQR
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by StarlessWinter:
The Pirates scores are only meant to entertain. Why do so many people judge them on an orchestrational, technical level?OMG. The mental pretzels some people serve up to rationalize their bad taste....
posted 05-27-2007 06:43 PM PT (US) nuts_score
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by gkgyver:
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. At last, everything makes sense.HAHAHA. Seriously, tell me why he's a musical genius without mentioning Igor Stravinsky alone. I'm not denying that the man has talent, he's crafted some incredible scores (Images, Dracula, Jaws, CEotTK, and War of the Worlds to name a few groundbreaking examples), but some treat him as though he were the only composed to walk the Earth - simply for his temp-inspired SW scores, and I love those!
And if you find that Zimmer and MV music doesn't do it for you, simply stop listening. I stopped listening to Horner scores (with few exceptions of music that I knew I'd like after I saw the films) about five years ago.
posted 05-27-2007 06:52 PM PT (US) StarlessWinter
Non-Standard Userer
What exactly are composers like Zimmer moving forward to? They spend hours in their facilities programming to recreate an instrument, and the thought never occurs to them that it would be alot easier to hand a musician the notes and let him play them.That was meant more toward films, such as when people say "The Godfather" will never be topped, or there will never be another book series like "Harry Potter". With nothing against those examples, I just think its unfair NOT to have an open arm toward the future or recent releases.
All I said was that earlier in this thread, I wrote that based on the clips, I was cautiouly optimistic about AWE, and that's why it's so absurd that folks like nuts_score accuse me of blindly hating any given Zimmer score.
There are far worse ones than AWE, like Pearl Harbour or King Arthur, but that doesn't mean AWE is not far less than average.I think what I'm trying to get at with the Pirates scores is that they are simply catchy. They have very memorable themes that are interesting in themselves even if they don't develop (which I agree, is a fault of these scores). Catchy and memorable, that's it. But it's nice to have one of those once in a while. It certainly doesn't affect me emotionally, like LoTR does, but it's fun to listen to.
All I'm saying is that you can write entertaining music with a symphony orchestra, and not fall back to lines and melodies that seem to be ripped out of a children's song book for Christmas. Even those songs can sound pretty heroic and melodramatic if you just inject enough orchestral cliché.
I don't quite get what you mean here.
Well, the thing is ... how can I put this? You bring up the Nutcracker as an example, but you could take anything. Those pieces, like "Valse Des Fleurs" for instance, are self-contained musical constructs, and so it's hard to compare it to film music because film music never, or rarely, consists of such self-contained pieces.
And yet, you can take it as a comparison because Hans Zimmer also likes to arrange his albums in concert suite form. The last four tracks (I think) on the Da Vinci Code album were written by him as one piece (according to him) for example.
And yet, I would take Valse Des Fleurs over any Zimmer suite any day, since it's more imaginative writing, rhythmically more interesting, not to mention the musical mastery.
This is a very sloppy comparison, but it shows that Zimmer's scores are, in short, simply no good music.Again, I just find them catchy and memorable. I am not a fan of Zimmer in general; I usually find no interest in any of his works, but Pirates is an exception. I wouldn't call it no good, but I do see where you are coming from.
WHAT? I'm sorry, but that Williams has no diversity doesn't stand a chance at closer examination. You have Close Encounters, The Lost World, Terminal, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Memoirs Of A Geisha, Munich, Harry Potter, War Of The Worlds, Star Wars, Temple Of Doom, all of which are vastly different in style.
And every composer should be recognisable by people who have a little knowledge, that's a sign of great talent.
That new age John Williams' action music with its wild violin runs and flute punctuations are highly non-thematic, this is undoubtly true. But not everything in a score has to be thematic. In fact, I think it's one of Zimmer's biggest mistakes that every piece of his has a melodic line that never breaks. That makes his music, his resolutions utterly predictable and robs it of any surprises.
And John Williams is the master of thematic development. Development not only lies in the theme itself, but how it's used, in which setting, with which orchestration, in which meter, in which key. John Williams' themes sound effortless, they flow in a natural way, and they seem, as he calls it, inevitable. But that is a painstaking process.
Where is the development in PotC? The variation? Jack's heroic theme has the same tempo, the same orchestration, the same dynamics, from his first appearance in Pirates 1, to the last statement in Pirates 3. Every theme is so static that it can barely survive in different settings.John Williams certainly has diversity outside of his action music, as someone else mentioned above. But his action is basically the same, and that is what I meant when I said no development. Theme, fast music, theme, etc. And lots of composers have development in the keys and the setting, etc. What I appreciate in thematic development is the kind that Shore did with LOTR: for example, using the hammered dulcimer for Gollum because he was taken out of his Hobbit life, seven notes in the first half of the Minas Tirith theme to symbolize the seven stars and seven stones, the "there and back again" style of writing for much of the music. I mean, that is pure GENIUS! Thematic development is relatively easy, but that is outstanding. Not to bring Williams down, but I can't recall him ever doing that.
I think the lack of development in the Pirates music should not be so much directed at Zimmer as it should to the writers. There is really no development in the characters in the films, so the music shouldn't reflect that if it's not there. Jack is the same, except for the ending of DMC, but that's for..what?..5 minutes? The only characters who really change are Elizabeth and Norrington, but look at that! They have no themes to change. Who would have thought?
Because there's more to emotion and excitement than what Zimmer can offer here. Emotion doesn't come from a schmaltzy violin/horn (it's got to be one or the other ...) theme, and excitement doesn't come from strings mindlessly chopping underneath the schmaltzy violin/horn theme. You have to look at a scene, feel it, understand its heart, and then have the knowledge how to put that down onto paper. You have to look at the film, and find its spirit, its specific character, and then translate that into music. And this is the point where Zimmer almost always fails.
It's not just that he uses "too much horn in this song", it's his way of using the same motifs, the same, exactly the same, orchestration in every single movie he does. It's everything, like I said before, predictable to a point where 30 second samples are enough really to get a picture of the whole score.
And I know about guilty pleasures, trust me. I believe I'm the only person in the world who finds the scores to the first two Pokémon movies, if not musically good, still appealing.Anyway, I really don't feel like talking about AWE anymore. It's redundant.
But thank you, StarlessWinter, for at least talking normally, and not immediately whipping things at people's heads that border on personal insults.I'll have to agree with you on the essence of emotion. I just meant in general, what is SUPPOSED to be emotional. I mean, it doesn't have to be truly emotional, but you still get the sense that there is some feeling behind it, if only a little. I think it means more if you've seen the movie, which can be taken as a fault to Zimmer's work, I guess. But a score is there to serve the movie most of all, not to work on its own as its top priority. Of course, if it can do both, all the best to it!
On a different note, At World's End the film is a mess of plot, though still hugely entertaining. It can get jambled up a bit because there are so many double crosses and betrayals, but it works in the end. All you have to worry about is whose side the characters are on in the end. I think it is the best looking film I've ever seen. Sorry WETA, I love you guys to death, but these have to be the best visual effects ever put on film. WETA, you still rock at the emotional animation, but in terms of reality and grandeur, I think you've been topped. The sets are incredible. So detailed.
[Message edited by StarlessWinter on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 07:56 PM PT (US) HadrianD
Standard Userer
gkgyverThere seems to be a vicious implication (if not assertion) on your part that Zimmer fans are people "who doesn't understand the finer and refined forms of film music". If so, you shouldn't be in this thread anymore. It's so far the most (and I quote my wonderful wife) "pompous" comment I've heard among many other elitist one. Why can't I, (grammar check?) a classically trained musician versed in music theory, like both the work of those classically trained composers like John Williams and JNH's, like War of the World and Lady In The Water. at the same time praise AWE as the best score for the movie it was written for? Your unqualified assumption(s) belittles any credibility you have as a basic film music fan. A modern version of the classical snob who prefer Beethoven and Tchaikovsky over anything by Korngold and Waxman, simply because it's not proper classical film music.
No one is disrespecting "the classic movies" in this thread, because no one has expressed any bias against "the classic movies". You so far have shown that you think Hans' scores are "insufferable", "overly simplistic, über-melodramatic, badly orchestrated, and questionably mixed" and "one size fits all". For you to say that King Arthur and Gladiator and Dead Man's Chest scores "all mushes together" is something I expect would only expect from an overtly biased individual.
One could do the same as you and say, with an unabashedly biased attitude, that Thomas Newman's American Beauty and Pay It Forward and Road To Perdition is "insufferable" and "one size fits all", or say the same with regards to Danny Elfman's Hulk and Spider-Man and Red Dragon. We all know that these scores above are very unique in their own way despite some overt similarity in orchestration.It's true that you can't "un-hear" a score, but I think the key is how you evaluate one score from another and in relation to the movie(s) it was created for. I don't think you'll accept any reasoning when it comes to Hans because you've already decided against it.
I snickered at this line "I'm more than willing to leave everyone his personal taste, but then they shouldn't be surprised and upset...that someone comes up to them and tells them how horribly wrong they could be" . It's a very ironic line because you've shown in this thread that you assumed to know everyone's personal taste and yet still managed to tell them "how wrong it could be" according to your own elitist standard.
I'm leaving this thread.
[Message edited by HadrianD on 05-27-2007]
posted 05-27-2007 08:32 PM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB