quote:

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Originally posted by AustinHusker:
Also, would "Bilbo's Song" in the EE fan club credits be included or would they go on the rumored rarities disc(s)? That is a really great piece and I'm hoping to get an official version rather then the one I ripped from my EE. Thanks!

-Chad

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First of all...... HELLO page 32. Are we gonna leave this thread at this length till kingdom come, Peter?

Second... Bilbo's Song? Where is this in the fan credits?

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is the children's choir. Sissel's piece is also there. Good stuff!

-Chad

quote:

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Originally posted by AustinHusker:
It is the children's choir. Sissel's piece is also there. Good stuff!

-Chad

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Got it.

quote:

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Originally posted by AustinHusker:

Also, would "Bilbo's Song" in the EE fan club credits be included or would they go on the rumored rarities disc(s)? That is a really great piece and I'm hoping to get an official version rather then the one I ripped from my EE. Thanks!

-Chad

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Of course it should be included! Actually, you hear the beginning of this tune in the scene when Pippin finds Merry after the battle, so I think it's obvious that we will hear the full version of this piece in this place in the CR.

That's a result of the song getting bumped from its intended spot (in TTT, I believe) and included here instead. However, once it was decided that it was going to be in the ROTK extended cut, Shore wrote the music to connect it. It's not simply tracked in. For that reason if no other, it belongs on the ROTK CR.

"With a sigh
You turn away
With a deepening heart
No more word to say
You will find
That the world has changed
Forever

And the trees are now
Turning from green to gold
And the sun is now fading
I wish I could hold you
closer"

The song is for the Houses Of The Healing but inside them the song is also for Eowyn who meet Faramir.

I Think the lyrics are bland and insipid.
The Film of the Extended Editon of ROTK
With some of his appearances seem to be seriousless than the others EE of the LOTR.

maybe Howard Shore will have some probleme
with his professional integrity to put inside the C.R. of the ROTK such a insipid song. if he really want put in, the best he have for. as I have suppose (and listened) it.

Otherwise I think he can put inside the disc four of the CR the two song that are only hear in the generic, he have the place to put them.

I just don't think it should replace Sissel's piece, since it clearly wasn't originally intended for that scene.
The way I see it, it's a part of the score that wasn't intended to be there, so when for instance the tracked "Evil Times" motif at the beginning of TTT got replaced by the original piece for that scene, I see no reason why Tyler's song should be treated any differently.

quote:

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Why should the inclusion of the song spoil Shore's integrity? After all, he wrote the song (I assume).
But even if Plan 9 wrote it, it was still put there in agreement with him.

I just don't think it should replace Sissel's piece, since it clearly wasn't originally intended for that scene.
The way I see it, it's a part of the score that wasn't intended to be there, so when for instance the tracked "Evil Times" motif at the beginning of TTT got replaced by the original piece for that scene, I see no reason why Tyler's song should be treated any differently.

After all, it will be released one way or the other.
But if you really want to stay true to the whole "score as it was written as a storytelling device" scheme, you better remove the song from the CR and put it on another disc (assuming that there will be one).

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So which piece was supposed to be used for the "Houses" scene, the "Sissel" piece? What piece is this; where can it be found, and did Shore ever specifically say that it was meant for that scene before the "Tyler" piece was used?

I don't know if Shore has been quoted as saying anything, but Doug had this to say about it, earlier in this thread:

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The Sissel piece was written for the post-battle Fields of Pelennor and the Houses of Healing. Arwen’s song wasn’t originally going to be in there.

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It syncs with the film perfectly, if begun at the same time Tyler's solo does, after the choral introduction.

According to Magpie's site, the lyrics are from "Aragorn".

Sissel's Song: HS has discussed it but it's all rather confusing. Go to this page:
http://www.geocities.com/magpie930/CBC_ROTK/rfan_credit_music.htm
I dug a great while trying to figure out what this piece was and if it was the piece mentioned in the credits as "A Shadow Lies Between Us". But even I get confused trying to figure it all out so read at your own peril.

Keep in mind, this page has not been updated recently and new information exists. Doug has confirmed it's intended placement in the movie. The piece known as Aragorn now has the title, "The Grace of the Valar known as Breath of Life". And we have more lyrics for it now, including a line that reads, "Shadow lies between us" which must mean it's the song mentioned in the credits.

Liv's Song... succint answer: I intensely dislike it. And I'm not so sure Howard wrote it. It would interesting to find out.

The Lyrics of "Arwen's Fate" CR-TTT track 11

Uich gwennen na’wanath a na dhín .
An uich gwennen na ringyrn e-mbar han.
Boe naer gwannathach.
Boe cuil ban firitha.
...
Boe naer gwanna(thach)
...
Boe naer...

(Arwen), you are not bound to loss and to silent.
for you are not bound to the circles of this world.
sorrowing you must go.
all (mortal) life is doomed to fade.
....
sorrowing you must go.
....
(sorrowing) you must go.

quote:

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Originally posted by Magpie:

Liv's Song... succint answer: I intensely dislike it. And I'm not so sure Howard wrote it. It would interesting to find out.

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It's like a drinking of hot water without nothing else.

MM

I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly, but I do understand this:

quote:

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Howard Shore have said that the sissel'song was for the scene where Arwen is leaving the Middle-Earth.

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But that is not the case. On the ROTK EE he says Liv Tyler's song was originally intended for that scene, and it was originally intended to be in TTT. But once the scene was cut from TTT and moved to ROTK, the finalisation of that Arwen scene was delayed until 2003. And when the time came, both Peter Jackson and Howard Shore found it (quite rightly) inappropriate because it was strange to hear Liv's voice while she's on screen. Consequently, Shore wrote "Twilight and Shadow" for Renee Fleming.
Also, Sissel's song couldn't have been intended for the Arwen scene because it wasn't even recorded until the extended edition of ROTK went into production.

quote:

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
@ dambedir

I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly, but I do understand this:

Howard Shore have said that the sissel'song was for the scene where Arwen is leaving the Middle-Earth.

But that is not the case. On the ROTK EE he says Liv Tyler's song was originally intended for that scene, and it was originally intended to be in TTT. But once the scene was cut from TTT and moved to ROTK, the finalisation of that Arwen scene was delayed until 2003. And when the time came, both Peter Jackson and Howard Shore found it (quite rightly) inappropriate because it was strange to hear Liv's voice while she's on screen. Consequently, Shore wrote "Twilight and Shadow" for Renee Fleming.

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It's possible for a time they have done a song that Liv tyler sing and we hear it finaly while the scene of the houses of the healing.

but there is what HS say about sissel's song as it is write in the website of Magpie's nest: this is a quote of what it is write in "MUSIC FOR MOVIE" issue 42

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But, I read a comment by Howard Shore in the Music From the Movies magazine, Issue 42.

interviewer:

Isn't there a piece called 'A Shadow Lies Between Us' that you originally wrote for a scene in The Two Towers that actually ends up in the The Return of the King?

Howard Shore:

This was a part I originally wrote for Liv Tyler called 'Arwen's Theme'. In the Return of the King its Renee Fleming's first piece called Twilight and Shadow.

page 68

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Of what I understand there are three steps for this scene :

1: sissel's song for TTT
2: song of Liv Tyler for TTT or ROTK
3: Twilight and Shadow sang by renee fleming in ROTK

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I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I've got the same Music From The Movies issue, and "a part I originally wrote for Liv Tyler" pretty much makes it clear that Tyler's song was intended for this scene.

And check you ROTK EE documentaries, Shore does make that clear.

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to be accurate if "origanly wrote for Liv tyler" mean : sing by her : that mean that sissel sung and recordes the song later as you have said it before and in the step one what we call sissel's song was an arwen's song with lyrics from "the grace of the valar" finaly sung by sheila chandra in a other scene with a new composition and music.

I want to know if you have said that the song we hear while the scene of the House of the Healings was intended a time for the scene where Arwen is leaving the Middle earth ?

I can shed a little light here.

Arwen’s Song was originally written (by Howard Shore) around the time of The Two Towers. It was recorded well, well before the film was nearing a final edit. Nevertheless, back at this point Arwen’s departure from Rivendell, and subsequent vision, was a TTT scene, not an ROTK scene. (Remember, they had originally planned to stick Arwen into Helm’s Deep to ratchet up the excitement—a plan they wisely decided against.)

So the scene and the song were saved for ROTK. It was then decided that it didn’t work to have Arwen singing about her own situation… a little too meta and self-reflexive. So the piece was pulled, and replaced with the Fleming piece, which was written with the ROTK score proper.

Jump ahead now… the Sissel piece was written for the transition of post-battle Pelenor into the Houses of Healing scene in the ROTK Extended Edition. (Shore met Sissel in performances of the LOTR Symphony.) After this piece was written and recorded, it was decided that Arwen’s Song—which was STILL unused at this point—should be placed under Houses of Healing, so the Sissel piece was removed. Since it was a complete composition, and the only work featuring Sissel, Shore rescued the composition by placing it under the ROTK fan scroll.

So therefore, you ended up with Arwen’s Song written for TTT moved to the ROTK: EE, and the Sissel song written for ROTK: EE moved to the end credits. Only the Fleming piece remained where it was intended, though that, too, was obviously replacing the first appliance of Arwen’s Song.

In the long run, the order of the composition was:

Arwen (Tyler)
Flemming
Sissel

All works were composed by Shore. So where will everything be placed on the ROTK: CR? We’ll see, we’ll see…

More answers later… I’ll try to work my way backwards, though I’m a little light on sleep, so I may not be too speedy.

Happy new year, by the way!

No !

this is not what HS say !
he say that the song we hear in the fans Credits Chapter of the EE of ROTK is what he wrote first for the scene where arwen leave the middle-earth when we finaly hear Renee Flemming. when I see the lyrics of the song this is logic, i don't see why the lyrics of what we hear in "Arwen's fate" or "breath of life" is able to fit in the house of the healing.

for the house of the healing maybe there is an unknow song sing by sissel or maybe that arwen sing the song that sissel sang first in this case we never have heard it.

and if sissel sing something that was the song who has been replaced by the song of renee fleming maybe it is a consolation for sissel who was bumped by Liv tyler .

I notify that I have anythings against Liv Tyler or against Arwen in the movie : her appearance give a lot of beautifull song that I like very much (until she sing herself lol)

there is what HS say and the logic it's enough to me I don't do diplomacy.
thanks

* when HS speak about the first piece of twilight and shadow it's because there is a second piece in the OST track 8 that end it. it's named " the grace of undomiel song"

what I think it's no intermediary know better than his sources.

Even if he do his best and I don't doubt of that of course !!

and in fact I have a question for him :

Are there a song of the deads( for the paths of the dead) we will discover in the ROTK-CR ?

And I trust Doug's answer because he's careful with his answers and I don't believe he would ever provide one without checking his facts carefully. He does have access to official material and Howard himself. He's not a 'fan' just spouting off what he guesses or thinks. He's a professional doing a professional job.

I don't say this in 'defense' of Doug. (He doesn't need defending.) I'm just indicating that I trust him to be a very reliable source. I have spent many hours checking various facts and determining the validity of certain statements. I have fairly high standards and I think it may be useful to know which types of sources I consider trustworthy, which I consider not, and which I have no opinion or knowledge about.

You should also understand that Arwen's Song went through several lyrics... some of which went on to be used in other compositions instead, some of which went totally unused. So when you hear one composition "becoming" another, this is what HS is referring to.

Anyway, the scenarios above are what happened. I was fortunate enough to be around and got to watch the proceedings firsthand at this point, so I can actually posit myself as more than an intermediary.

As for music for the Paths of the Dead, there is already a choral lyric related to this story element -- a choral text that, in production, was named "The Way is Shut."

Magpie, thanks as always for your kind words and your gentle nature. This website is better for your presence.

Back after coffee!

Never I have said than the intermediary was worse than the creator.

And really I thank doug for he give me (us) a bit a things that are not yet published ( as I know). "the tittle of the song of the deads". (in fact I hear their voices at the end of the OST TRACK 14 of the ROTK).

I don't know if you say that we hear while the fans credits chapter sang by sissel is what sissel should sing for the houses of the healing.

you have said only what we hear in this chapter is the only song of sissel we can hear.

if this is not the same song, in this case there is no disagreement between you and HS.

I remember that HS said that we hear from sissel in the fan credits chapter was for the scene where Arwen leave the middle earth.

I profit of this post for another question :

you said for "Gandalf the White" TTT-CR TRACK 13 disc One in the A.S.

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"Gandalf, too collapses but the score neither celabrates nor mourns the battle's end. instead, with a thousand pinpricks of woodwinds and violins, it trickles back to life. After wandering the less tangible corner of the existance, strong melodic figures in the massed low voices of the orchestra pass Gandalf's spirit sprit back into his body, and Gandalf the white is brought into the world.

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it seem I hear some voices making sound like muscical instrument or something other.
maybe it is what you call "thousand of pinpricks". can you explain more about this ?

I again wasn't bowled over by it, but I finally found out why...I know this stuff too well. I memorized the music in the film so thoroughly that when the sets came out, it wasn't *that* new. But, boy, am I happy to have it last, and some of the unreleased stuff is breathtaking (I pity those horn players who have to run amok at the end of "Night Camp"). And fortunately, there exist no pictures of me of the moment I first clapped ears on the full-choir version of "The Call".

Grand stuff, and a HUGE THANK YOU to all involved.

Only, Doug...words like "bumptiously", "reprobating", "limb-weary". Are these actually part of your every-day vocabulary, or do you have to look them up?!

More soon, after I've finished part 1 of my diploma thesis. See you again in February!

CK

Is it me, or do these CR sets get better with each listen? I never get tired of hearing how the various themes and motifs evolve and grow throughout the score. I think these scores have definitely become my primary audio treasures .

Question for Doug.

I brought this up some ten or so pages ago, and now, every time I hear it, I'm more and more convinced there's some relationship here.

The phrasing in TTT:CR
"The Dream of Trees" (0:17 - 0:25) and (0:25 - 0:35)

Sounds very related to RoTK
"A Storm is Coming" (0:22 - 0:30)

Doug, is there some sort of relationship here? The only thing I can come up with is that it may have to do with sleeping or dreaming. In TTT, Merry and Pippin are sleeping / dreaming, and in RoTK, it's played over the opening titles which proceeds to a flashback / dream of Smeagol's earlier life.

If there's any insight you could share with us, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!

I have been lurking since before the Fellowship score was released and I’ll be danged if the discussion about Arwen’s Song did not drive me to finally join!

Mr. Adam’s your explanation regarding the history of the song actually relieves me somewhat. I do like Arwen’s ditty, but the Rivendell music in Fellowship leaves me cold (though I like the darker tone it takes in The Two Towers). Any guilt I felt about not loving each note written by Mr. Shore is now expunged since Arwen’s song is so roundly reviled by so many. Sissel’s performance is lovely as well, and I am quite heartened at the hint you give that all of the music may be included-Tyler, Flemming and Sissel. The best of all possible soundtracks, if that is what happens!

If you would be so kind, would you elaborate a little more about Arwen’s Fate in the extended score? Do I understand correctly that Chandra’s performance was intended for Aragorn’s funeral? Was it then replaced in the film with another arrangement of Evenstar? I hesitate to ask because I am as musical as a block of wood, and often do not hear things and make connections that come naturally to the musically gifted. So, if my question seems simplistic, please have mercy.

Chickadee

FYI - I was lucky enough to be in Los Angeles the day that the TTT:CR was released. I went into the Barnes & Noble at the Grove next to Farmer's Market on Fairfax and reserved the only copy that they were getting in. Glad I did, as with the first run selling out, I would still be waiting for it to get to me in Australia (where these box sets have never appeared in shops).

sjd

It is not just you. The more I listen to them, the more I hear in them. This was actually also true of the original albums, but the sheer volume of music on the CRs as well as the breadth of material involved means that there are more correlations to make each time. I, for one, didn't even recognize from the original FOTR CD that Aragorn had a specific theme, but hearing that theme develop is one of my favorite aspects of the CRs.

The thread has been repurposefullied over here:

http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/015404.html

Thank you and see you over there!