The disappointment was bigger naturally because I REALLY expected this one to restore the John Williams magic touch. The soundtrack just didn't deliver any of the expectations I had about the promising magical subject.

The biggest problem in the HARRY POTTER score is that almost all of it has been heard before - really !! The overall style is irritatingly similar to HOOK, HOME ALONE, and various other previous works from John Williams. Talk about "recycling scores"... Till this day I have believed that John Williams doesn't want to reprise himself, but HARRY POTTER is the evidence of something totally opposite.

Furthermore, HARRY POTTER's music seems annoyingly "mature" - and in clear words, too thick in orchestration and much too thin in melodies...and TOO darn bombastic. Even the only GOOD, lushious and somewhat soaring theme on the soundtrack, "Harry's Wondrous World", is too many times interrupted with the "bombastics".

Now, certainly I believe that all the Williams music works well in the movie - especially the many flying cues are probably magnificent on the screen, but only annoying when listened to; these cues just doesn't evoke anything else in my mind except finding similarities to THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK or FAR AND AWAY. Even the delightful theme for "Diagon Alley" brings into my mind the furry little Ewoks from RETURN OF JEDI and Schindler's workforce from SCHINDLER'S LIST. And I truly hope Williams doesn't do it purposely but I can hear his "Imperial March" from THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and even parts from THE FURY on the track "The Face of Voldemort"...HEY, THE PROBLEM CAN'T BE ALL IN MY OWN EARS, CAN IT !!??!!

I'm probably jeopardizing my future on these boards with this post but I just HAD to say this and wait for being stoned to death with all of the John Williams & Harry Potter Fans out there. Just that HARRY POTTER was about magic and yet the "magic" isn't there - I enjoyed the book, and I truly WANT to see the movie itself - but with this soundtrack I just was so disappointed; John Williams can't create magic anymore, he can't FLY anymore, he can't create distinct, wonderful melodies anymore - - I think he should stop reprising his "grown-up" writing and retire, and give room for much more versatile composers in Hollywood.

Please don't hate me for saying this.

I happen to have this GRRR annoying "quest" for ORIGINALITY...

Hey, juha, I want to thank you once again for making me aware of POTTER's Finnish invasion and thanks also for understanding my point - although I also know that Williams may never again write anything as soaring as E.T., I still have HOPED and DREAMED...and now my belief in Williams has gone for good.

Sorry, but I just get mad when people call something a rip-off when it is just a simmalerity in the man (or woman's) style.

Np: Saving Private Ryan (John Williams) *****/*****

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken S:

Please don't hate me for saying this.
KEN

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No no no no I don't hat you *slap punch kick whackwhackwhack* YIPYIPYIPYIPYIP grrrrrrrrrr....

John Zimmer, I happen to agree with you that there are manymany repetitive persons in Hollywood - not only composers -
but because of all the hype going around this HARRY POTTER soundtrack I felt that I had to open my mouth.

I am not only talking about "rip-offs".
Again I say that John Williams (among many others) is a talented composer, but certainly he (or anybody else) shouldn't be celebrated for another "typical" score. There are so many OTHER fine composers who REALLY put their VERY SOUL into their scores and still they don't get the praise, while simultaneously there are things like Williams POTTER score (everybody say "ooohh" and "aaahhh" just because everybody says so) - THAT IS WHAT MAKES ME MAD AND SAD !!!

quote:

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Please don't hate me for saying this.

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I certainly don't, I mean, I absolutely adore this score but can absolutely understand why people may voice such feelings.

The thing is, to me, there's little other way the score to this movie should sound, and in that respect it's bang on everything one should have expected it to be. I even read the bloody books listening to Hook and the combination worked so well...

To me, Philosopher's stone is playful, elegant and spooky all in one. It's been some ten years now since Williams has done something so grand, magical and fantasy based. I'm really very fond of it!

So, I say he can retire once he's scored six more Potter movies, two more Star Wars movies and Spielberg gives up the directing game.

Dan (UK)

NP: Harry Potter & The Philosopher's Stone (****/****)

But I do agree that there are MANY scores out there that deserve more attention.

I also remember that I, just like everyone else, was really disappointed after hearing Phantom Menace. It was just different from what I expected. Now, I consider it as good as any of the Star Wars scores, and one of my favourite Williams works.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Brecher:
So, I say he can retire once he's scored six more Potter movies, two more Star Wars movies and Spielberg gives up the directing game.

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KEN

I completely agree with you.

And I know I'll get stoned too for this, but that's my opinion, so sue me.

I haven't heard HARRY POTTER, but I've listened to basically every soundclip available... and I have THE PHANTOM MENACE score. His recent style is just boring and dull. You're right: he can't *fly* anymore.

I admire his early work (SUPERMAN, JAWS, the original STAR WARS trilogy) because, even though the orchestrations were less complex and the style a little more rudimentary, it had impact. The themes were bold, adventurous, no-holds-barred and quite memorable and the action sequences were wild. He had that childish sensibility that made everything sound bigger and better and more fun. It was magic.

Now, he's old, of course, and his music sounds old. Tired. Unoriginal. Insipid. The orchestrations are utterly complex, all the instruments are playing at the same time, different melodies, different rhythms... but it sounds flat. There's no emotion. His music has turned to little Études that merely demonstrate he's a good composer. But his music is dull now. There's no magic.

So, yeah, I agree: he should retire. I'm not saying he's the only one who should (James, for the love of God, take your paycheck and get lost! Maybe join the next SURVIVOR so we can watch you starve....), but that is one guy who definitely should.

You know, people keep saying it's actually better when a TV show leaves at the height of its glory rather than go on for ages until it's become so dull, nobody watches it and few people remember it. The same goes for score composers. Williams' Golden Age is way passed and what he composes now is, albeit working, derivative. Dull. Boring. Uninspired.

I say leave the place for other, more creative, younger composers, like Elliot Goldenthal, John Ottman, John Powell (yes, Media Ventures, but his themes are powerful and his music fun... reminds me a bit of the Williams of old), Alan Silvestri, James Newton Howard (with a little originality boost, maybe), David Arnold, Trevor Jones, and I'm sure at least five other great composers in the making who are just waiting for their big break.

Thanks for making it so much more clearer !!

quote:

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Originally Posted by John Zimme:
...if you want Williams to retire then why have film music at all.

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Marian made a point about Bruckner's symphonies all sounding the same yet being unique and he wouldn't part with any of them. I guess this is okay if you like Bruckner, but if you don't enjoy his style you're gonna get fed up pretty quickly.

I don't like John Williams' style much at all, so if he retired tomorrow I can't say I'd be terribly sad about it.

And waddya' meeeeaaan Williams isn't film music he is...he's a God, a saint, he's a spirt he is THE King of film music.

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However I disagree with you about JW is losing his magical touch. He certainly doesn't write as masterful scores as he used to but the quality of his scores is still first rate...But I don't think that JW can ever again write such classics like Jurassic Park , E.T., Close Encounters, Jaws etc...

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Aren't your statements a little contradictory? You say he's not losing his magical touch, but then follow it up by saying he doesn't write like he used to...and, in fact, CAN'T! I think you just proved the other fellow's point.

I happen to think that he has just "matured" in his style. I think he "could" write something like a Superman, Jaws, or Raiders, if he set his mind to it...but I don't think those sorts of scores are "in" him any more...just like those sorts of films aren't "in" Spielberg anymore (not Superman of course).

The final proof has to be TPM. If he was ever going to revert to his classic style of the late seventies-early-eighties, he would have done so for TPM. He really didn't...producing the least enjoyable SW score to date. If it weren't for Duel of the Fates, that score really would have seen some harsh words...and the movie as a whole would have had no silver lining at all.

Christopher
[aka scoreman]

Ken, with all due respect, I don't think Williams has lost his touch. He has changed his style. While his style here is certainly Hook oriented, he does not copy himself. Your opinion is your opinion, and I respect that. But perhaps, just maybe, you need to retire from life, for anyone who is not moved by this score must be physically or spiritually dead!

Sorry! Just my opinon.

Everyone else, get this score. It is awesome. I am so sure about this, that if you get it, and don't like it, send me the cd and I will reimburse you for it!

quote:

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Originally posted by Kosh:
I haven't heard HARRY POTTER, but I've listened to basically every soundclip available...

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Kosh, that must be one of the most dumbest (and I don't say that likely) statement anyone has ever posted on this message board. If you listen to the score and you'll hate like Ken does, I can respect that. But listening to 30 or so seconds sound clips and forming an opinion on the score is utterly dumb. An opinion based on that kind of shortsightness and bias pre-conceived opinion cannot ever be respected.

Talking crazy like that will NOT earn you any credibility, man.

The only Williams scores I've been disappointed with lately are the ones he's done for Spielberg, oddly enough. Amistad, Saving Private Ryan, and A.I. are temp track jobs. Effective scores (the themes are great, though I do admit A.I. sounds almost exactly like E.T.), but not scores I listen to for pleasure. The most disappointing thing about The Patriot was its atrocious sound quality (Shawn Murphy should retire, along with DDD recording; bring back analog!), and The Phantom Menace was handicapped by its less-than-inspiring film (it would've made a great 45-minute album!).

Anyway, I've said enough. Bring on Mr. Potter!

If you haven't read my review, then I'll just say I disagree with Williams losing his magic. He has adapted it to a somewhat different style than he used in the late 70's / early 80's.

I don't think it sounds repetitive. There will always be similarities to his other scores... they are all John Williams scores. But I heard nothing more than stylistic similarities.

Just read Scott's reply. He said it all.

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Originally posted by Shaun Rutherford:
Shawn Murphy should retire...

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Luckily Harry Potter was recorded and mixed by Simon Rhodes, who did a much better job at capturing some of the more nuanced orchestrations, I think.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard:
I think because despite the contribution he has made to film music, which I really respect, Williams isn't film music itself.

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Because so many people here are defending Williams on his "style", I advice you to look through the above list WITH THOUGHT - just THINK about it for a while, OK ? All the titles are great John Williams scores, and still most of them have their own significant sound and style - YES, some of them may have similarities, but yet the styles and sounds aren't the same; for example, if you didn't know anything about Williams, would you say that the same guy has composed STAR WARS and SPACE CAMP, or HOME ALONE and THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK, or even DRACULA and THE FURY. And just think about the amazing differences in sound and style with STAR WARS and SUPERMAN /and SUPERMAN and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK /and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK and INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM.

Maybe, after thinking it through, you will get my point.

I would like to add also, that I have NOT said that the HARRY POTTER score would be a BAD one, neither I've said I would be HATING the score (I will do the final judgement when seeing the movie). I'm just pointing here the fact that John Williams can't be praised anymore for the word "ORIGINALITY".

In my opinion, Rosewood and Nixon are much more different than Star Wars, Superman and Raiders alltogether. Besides, you can hear traces of Williams' stylistic changes through all his scores. Parts of Jedi have a stylistic resemblence with Hook, and a lot of Hook predicts the tonalities used in Phantom Menace.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken S:
Topic: John Williams should retire ?

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While I think Williams was certainly better 20 years ago, I hardly think it is time for him to retire. He still writes some interesting music, and although he might not be as inventive or bold in his composing as before, he usually gives us some pretty good work. Give the guy a break.

SFT

you said:

Because so many people here are defending Williams on his "style", I advice you to look through the above list WITH THOUGHT - just THINK about it for a while, OK ? All the titles are great John Williams scores, and still most of them have their own significant sound and style - YES, some of them may have similarities, but yet the styles and sounds aren't the same; for example, if you didn't know anything about Williams, would you say that the same guy has composed STAR WARS and SPACE CAMP, or HOME ALONE and THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK, or even DRACULA and THE FURY. And just think about the amazing differences in sound and style with STAR WARS and SUPERMAN /and SUPERMAN and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK /and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK and INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM.

Agreed. If you don't find some differneces in Harry Potter then you are suddenly tone death. Sure there aren't that many new nuances, but they do exist. Furthermore, you are judging Williams on one score, his latest and yet you fail to mention AI wich is completely different in style and approach than Harry Potter. Furthermore, I would guess a lot of us here would be able to tell a Williams score whether we ever heard it or not, because although his style has changed, he still composes in a way that is unmistakely him. I have seen older films who's composer I didn't even know and while watching the film thinking, wow, this sounds like Goldsmith or Williams and finding out in the end it was. By the way, track 11 on Potter has more in common with the original Star Wars score than it does with Hook.

I would like to add also, that I have NOT said that the HARRY POTTER score would be a BAD one, neither I've said I would be HATING the score (I will do the final judgement when seeing the movie). I'm just pointing here the fact that John Williams can't be praised anymore for the word "ORIGINALITY".

I re-read you original post Ken, and that is not what you said.I urge you to read your post again and see how it comes across. Here a quick list for you

Nixon
Sabrina
Sleepers
The Lost World
Rosewood
Seven Years in Tibet
Amistad
Saving Private Ryan
Stepmom
Phantom Menace
Angela's Ashes
The Patriot
AI
Harry Potter

all scores composed after Shindlers list and all of them very different from another and yet all displaying the same evolving style we have all witnessed in Williams in the last years. Perhaps it is not originality that you crave from Williams Ken, but perhaps you long for the style of the old Williams. I myself, am as happy with the current Williams and his style as I am with the Williams of the seventies and eighties. Besides, with Williams growing in his craft, I have grown and learned as well and that is always a good thing.

Scott

quote:

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Originally posted by Probable:
Is it possible that the reason the new scores don't appeal to you in the same way isn't so much that John Williams has lost something, but that you have?

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Well, you're entitled to your opinion. For myself, I vastly prefer an artist who will evolve and mature over time, as Williams has, to one who stagnantly repeats himself. I also prefer a composer who will further explore styles he's used before, as Williams does, to one who stubbornly ignores his past successes in favor of always being 'original.' These are not contradictory statements, they refer to a balance that must be achieved, something I feel John Williams does nicely.

Anyway, enough blathering. It was true in ancient Greece and it's true now: there's no accounting for taste.