In the year 1985 I created COUNTER DRAKKIS. In 1988 a bunch of TINY MONSTERS invaded my imagination, and since those times the entire concept has grown and matured in my head. Before J. K. Rowling's first POTTER book was even published, I had tied together all the bits of my concept and created DRAKKIS's life story - a story which has incredible similarities to Harry Potter's life struggle.

Only last spring I accidentally was "forced" to read the first POTTER book, and naturally I was amazed of how similar text Rowling had produced. Although I should have been more "disappointed" because someone had puiblished such a similar story to mine, I was more importantly spellbound to the book - thinking it as a spiritual brother to my own creation of Drakkis. And while reading the book, I could see in my vast imagination all the action, all the excitement, all the emotion, and all the magic how it COULD be put on the silver screen.

And only about three months ago I found Peter Kelly's marvelous MM com. Simultaneously I found out that it was John Williams who would be doing the score for the movie version of HARRY POTTER. Since that day I have wished, hoped, and prayed that he would SURPRISE me with his newest score - the Potter STORY offers so much EMOTION and so much important themes that I envisioned in my wildest dreams Williams doing THE RICHEST score of his life - something of a mix of SUPERMAN's incredible array of themes and motifs, and E.T.'s emotional enchantment - NOT just sound or style.

(It is important to note that I've been seriously planning an animated movie about DRAKKIS, and that the musical world to my concept is INDEED an enormous one. With my sister, we have been developing our musical world of DRAKKIS almost for two and half years now -) SO, you may understand that while I have lived almost "inside" this musical world of my own creation, I indeed reflected it all into HARRY POTTER the MOVIE itself.

And it may have something to do with this, that many of you HAVE heard "Hedwig's Theme" already earlier and that you have "grown" to love it and accept it. BUT FOR ME, it all came in the shape of this soundtrack - and maybe I have to blame myself, that the first thing I listened was the "Hedwig's Theme" (because I had heard so much positive words about it). But in my opinion it was one of the most ugliest pieces of music Williams has ever created. And since the score uses the theme quite a lot, it was merely a shock treatment for me. Yes, the score does include some very enchanting passages, but unfortunately too similar to some of the earlier Williams scores - and in my opinion as good story as HARRY POTTER's is, it would've certainly deserved ITS OWN SOUND - not to be confused with a favorite Xmas family movie, nor with a Spielberg pirate epic.

Thus my belief in Williams crumbled, collapsed.

Sincerely,
KEN

PS. I'm going to continue later my thoughts about the subject, but now I have to stop - otherwise I will be late for an appointment

PS 2 - after some editing: I had to edit this quite a lot because I wrote this one quickly in the morning - now it should be much more clearer...
Sorry..!

KEN

In reply I have one thing to say:

Blasphemy

I have never seen such stupid, ignorant and imature remarks on a score, ever.

May you forgive yourselves when/if your imature minds start comprehending the ingenius score of this living legend, John Williams.
I rest my case, and I hope you guys do the same.

- Thomas

--Brian

-Unfortunately, Thomas, I HAVE seen many MUCH MORE stupid, ignorant, and immature remarks on plenty of scores by plenty of people, although I've been visiting film music sites only about three months. It's amazing that a highly educated person as you seem to be writes this kind of critique about an honest attempt to CREATE CONVERSATION. If you consider this thread a simple thingy of "me like and adore - me doesn't grrrr you f*****g idiot", then I honestly think you have much to learn about what is considered as immature and what is not.

Probable wrote:
"- - only mindless bickering over matters of personal taste. - - There is nothing more to be gained here."

Crono/Kyp, Brian wrote:
"I think this thread has warn [?] out it's welcome."

- I don't honestly understand how you guys can say things like that. I put my original post here because I WANTED to read opinions, and to create at least some kind of conversation. I have been enjoying all the replies in this thread. It's called communicating, sharing your thoughts with other people, even though if we don't agree with each other. In my opinion this kind of conversation is much more enjoyable than just posting several hundreds of one sentence jokes in a single thread.

It has been said on these message boards before that if one doesn't like a thread here, he/she shouldn't look at it at all and certainly not post in it anymore.

If someone's annoyed/pissed, oh, well.

I thought this discussion was very interesting, though. Please do not regard my posts as anything but provocative. After my first listen I shared many of your thoughts; "Lacking the magic... quoting from previous work... heard it before... unoriginal" etc... but upon further listens the beauty of the score reveals itself and I only wish those who did not get this "revelation" will get it soon!

- Thomas

Composer/Orchestrator/Arranger
http://home.online.no/~finjaco

CBmogul and Thomas & company, I have my both thumbs up for you and I'm smiling here - although I'm also guilty of this "stirring up the pot", I never want to purposely hurt anyone's feelings... But I DO have strong opinions which I always CAN and always WANT to explain; with my posts in this thread I think the only person who HAS the right being hurt, is Mr. Williams himself.

CBmogul, sorry about a delayed reply - only now I have the time for responding to your earlier post in this thread. You wondered how it is possible for me to find ROSEWOOD and AMISTAD unemotional amongst other things. Well, let me explain.

If I have understood it right, "Look Down Lord" is NOT a Williams original - please correct me if I'm wrong. But I have always assumed so, since the soundtrack album doesn't give any other hint.

I've always respected ORIGINALITY (although I know myself it's a two-sided coin) and especially those kind of film scores where even the source music cues are composed by the film music composer. In addition I have a greater respect to the composers who are willing to GIVE CREDIT for others too. It just happens that in the last ten years John Williams has produced some of the most troubled soundtrack albums - albums that make the listener to guess this & that because the lack of the credits. Sorry to say, I have been under the impression that John Williams has grown "too big for his shoes".

So, that's mostly the reason why the likes of "Look Down, Lord" haven't had such a real impact on me. But even if I have been wrong about this - that "Look Down, Lord" IS a Williams original - it doesn't change the fact that the recent years John Williams has been doing ONLY one kinds of film scores (with only a few exceptions).

It all goes back to SCHINDLER'S LIST. After it Williams really started avoiding fantasy and comedy and did only scores which allowed him to write only noble but poignant "eulogies" (*). Now, there is nothing wrong with these film scores in general, but when the same composer does it over and over again - it certainly bugged me. - Now some of you will twist my words again and think "Didn't Williams then make the fantasy scores over and over again in the seventies & eighties" and I say NO, HE DIDN'T. He did MANY KINDS of scores - serious and not that serious - and the majority of them had their distinct styles and sounds. But, after SCHINDLER'S LIST he started doing only these serious ones - and it even became sort of tradition, but in the same time it became too "automatic"; Williams was beginning to be a machine where buttons were pressed and sort of "great" music came out... That's what I mean by saying that his scores didn't SURPRISE (at least me) anymore.

(*) Yes, there were SABRINA and LOST WORLD. As the matter of fact I LOVED the SABRINA score (it was reminiscent of E.T.), but the soundtrack album release wasn't exactly convincing. LOST WORLD, on the other hand, was an excellent soundtrack for a disastrous movie.

NIXON's album version of "The 1960's: The Turbulent Years" was immediately one of my favorite dramatic pieces by Williams, and also I liked the score very much because it was so deliciously "dark" with lots of cold violins... But the more emotional pieces were a little too familiar in this "eulogy" style.

SLEEPERS - again, not much of surprises (except "Saying the Rosary"), although a very beautiful and poignant score.

AMISTAD's "moaning solos" and the children's chorus didn't have an effect on me. Somehow it all seemed too much following the scores like THE LION KING, Goldsmith's CONGO and THE GHOST AND THE DARKNESS, and even TITANIC in a hilarious way (those mezzo soprano solos).

Then came SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. Don't get me wrong when I say that the movie wasn't much of a surprise from Spielberg, although I was as shocked as everybody else watching the opening sequence... SAVING PRIVATE RYAN was one of those films where a score was totally UNneeded - and although "Hymn to the Fallen" was a beautiful piece of music, I wasn't so impressed with it; sorry to say, but I was sort of revolted by its JURASSIC PARKish sound tackling with such a serious subject as war is.

SO, I hope I shed some more light upon the mystery of why I'm not too impressed with John Williams' present style.

But then a bit more about HARRY POTTER.

I like "narrative" film music. I like that separate things or incidents have separate, distinct themes. In John Williams' Golden Age scores like SUPERMAN, THE MOVIE and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK there are extreme wealth of different themes and melodies - but sad to say, already back in 1993 with JURASSIC PARK I was beginning to notice that Williams started using only a couple of themes throughout a score. And it seems to be nowadays more a rule than an exception that any film score by any composer uses only couple of themes throughout a score, no matter what the scenes are about.

Now, with the HARRY POTTER soundtrack I hate to say that it's another of these kind of main theme oriented scores, but the music also seems to lack much in its "narration". A track like "The Arrival of Baby Harry" in fact HAS wonderful, clear passages in its narration - but then the following track "Visit to the Zoo and Letters from Hogwarts" is truly an oddity since the music doesn't give any hint of a visit to a zoo - there are mainly the whirling violins from "Hedwig's Theme" suggesting only a zoo filled with flying elephants and dancing hippos... and all this because Williams uses his main theme. Naturally, the music surely fits to the movie's specific scene most splendidly, but as pure music it just can't tell us anything.

So it happens with most of the tracks on the soundtrack.

Another thing that still bugs me, is Williams' use of these "festive" themes associated with Hogwarts. Because later there are the authentic Christmas scenes, it's odd that Williams uses very similar festive melodies and orchestrations in scenes like "The Journey to Hogwarts" and "Entry into the Great Hall".

But as I have said, HARRY POTTER is not a bad score (but not a masterpiece either) and will surely find its place when heard with the movie's images. But, unfortunately it can't anymore change my opinion that John Williams is now "too big for his shoes" and that all the music world seems to regard it as an OK thingy.

The Rebellious Brick-Novelist
KEN

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken S:
If I have understood it right, "Look Down Lord" is NOT a Williams original

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Huh? I haven't read anything so far that lets me assume that is was NOT written by Williams. It isn't credited to anyone else on the CD, either. In addition to some great gospel tracks, the score features good orchestral, and marvellous guitar writing. Plus it's one of the best sounding soundtrack albums. I wouldn't say it's my favourite Williams score (though I like it very much) or his best score, but it's his best in it's own way.

Assuming the 'spirituals' on the Rosewood cd are traditionals is a little misleading. In all the cds that I have of both Williams and Goldsmith, unoriginal material have been pointed out. So, it is rather unlikely that Williams, who does seem to have some sense of honor and respect for other composer's work (unlike others I won't even mention), would not reveal traditional or other kind of work.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, well, they aren't really elaborate on the songs are they now. I mean, it's basically a repeating sentence or two, not too hard to do that. Could also be that Williams came up with the lyrics first and then the music, or that he read the lyrics from somewhere. Bottom line, there are no facts indicating that these cues are not from him. The burden of prove lies on you Ken, thus far you have only lead by assumption the mother of all skrew ups .

I agree with quite a bit of what Ken S. says (except his opinion of Hedwig's Theme--I truly enjoy it!) However, the first handful of notes is strikingly similar to Hook..I would go so far as to say identical. Sure he takes it in a different direction, but if this was Horner we'd all be calling for him to be strung up. But that's another matter.

quote:

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Originally posted by Quill:
And for the movie...well, I'm no fan of the books (I know...I know...shoot me!)

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*BANG!*

But still, as a theme (on the CD) I can't get "into" it. A couple of days I've been humming the hectic violin part (between 3:28-3:40) and it constantly changes (while I'm humming it) into a part of "The Landing" from MISSION of the AMAZING STORIES... funny..!

About ROSEWOOD's "songs" - from the days of the original soundtrack to HOOK the fact has been bugging me that Williams sometimes forgets to mention such "basic" credits as the vocal of "When You're Alone" (even if it is Amber Scott), in addition to those orchestrator credits; and because many film composers don't mention the "public domain" cues on the album credits, I thought it to be so also on Williams' ROSEWOOD album. Even if Williams "wrote" the lyrics on his own, he should mention the kind of detail so that there wouldn't be any speculation like I had.

MOULIN ROUGE kicks some extreme musical butt !!

--Brian

You will need an exorcist to stop this thread.

Ken you wrote:

About ROSEWOOD's "songs" - from the days of the original soundtrack to HOOK the fact has been bugging me that Williams sometimes forgets to mention such "basic" credits as the vocal of "When You're Alone" (even if it is Amber Scott),

Ken, you continue to be so unfair, it is borderline pathetic. Hook is probably the worst example as far as cd packaging is concerned. The tracks are on the cd, no where else, which to this day pisses me off. You are right, no information is giving who sings the songs, although if you watched the film you will know. Yet, on all other Williams cds, including the most resent AI score, he has published the artists singing the song. So again, you follow your incredible pattern of picking out one example and applying to all others even though that one example is pretty much the only one presenting the facts of you complain. Not a good form Ken, not a good form at all.

...in addition to those orchestrator credits;

Well, I have mentioned this before, but will do so again. Williams will not list the orchestrator because: First: He really orchestrates them, all the orchestrator does is copying what is in the original sketches. Second: He, Williams, feels that all the orchestrator does is executing his music; Williams is the one who creates the colors, the shades and so on.
The orchestrators are metnioned in the end credits of all the films since they are a memeber of the whole film crew. If that bothers you Ken, so be it. It doesn't bother me one bit, for I know the orchestrations are pretty much Williams' own.

and because many film composers don't mention the "public domain" cues on the album credits, I thought it to be so also on Williams' ROSEWOOD album. Even if Williams "wrote" the lyrics on his own, he should mention the kind of detail so that there wouldn't be any speculation like I had.

Besides that this is again assumptions over assumptions, let's look at your last statement. The album says, Music composed and conducted by John Williams. Now, doesn't it follow that he wrote the lyrics himself as well? Why state that he did when the album pretty much says it is all his work? On AI he did mention not only who wrote the lyrics but also that someone else re-arranged the music.

In the end Ken, you seem to go out of your way to find one (and usually one) example to complain about Williams. You are reaching for examples for you pre-conceived almost prejudice views about this composer. I mean, hey, if you hate Williams, fine. Just say so then and don't try to prove it upon evidence that are really exeptions to the overall view.

Scott

quote:

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Originally posted by Crono/Kyp:
I thought this thread died weeks ago...

--Brian

NP: The X-Files

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Crono, you are slow dude. I did mentioned that I revived this thread due to the fact that I was gone for a week. Pay more atteniton you nutt.

quote:

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Originally posted by James:
why doesn't somebody go out and rent ROSEWOOD and see what the end credits have to say about the music?

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The IMDb lists several songs under "Soundtrack listing" that are not on the album, plus credits Williams for writing and Shirley Caesar for performing The Town Burns. For the other songs on the album, no credit is given. Assuming that the list is taken from the film's credits, I'd say this means Williams wrote those. Another point which supports this is that there's a reprise of Look Down Lord on the album.