When I say "lost his magic", I'm not saying "lack of originality". I mean, I do agree that the lack of originality is a problem which plagues a lot of composers (some more than others), but you were putting an "equal" sign where there wasn't any.

Just a quick example... Elliot Goldenthal, one of my favorite composers, has taken a full piece from one of his previous scores and put into into another. He doesn't do it everytime, and when he does, I'd say it's somewhat minor, but just listen for that heavy metal piece that's playing when Ripley gets raped in ALIEN3 and is still playing when Robin goes to rescue the girl from the Neon gang in BATMAN FOREVER... there are other examples. That, I hate... this borrowing, blatant and all, whomever does it (not just Horner).

But Goldenthal infuses a power to his music and there's a touch of magic to it. There are genuine emotions in it. It's not about originality; it's about the synthesis of orchestrations, instrumentations, melodies, rhythms, and tempo, all coming together to give us what we really enjoy out of score music: emotions.

I'm just saying that, lately, Williams has been very low in the genuine emotion department. The music feels flat to my ears. My guess is that PART of the problem (but not ALL of it) can be attributed to poor sound recording. I could be wrong here, but it seems that scores like THE PHANTOM MENACE were recorded blandly, and every instrument has the same volume... very low. That certainly doesn't help the music, but on top of that, I think the composing itself has suffered.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kosh:
you were putting an "equal" sign where there wasn't any.

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"You" being whom? I certainly did not mean to draw any such equation. My side note about originality was only that - a side note.

As to your not finding JW's later stuff evocative, I can only disagree. I find scores like 'A.I.' and 'Angela's Ashes' very moving.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bulldog:
Well, Ken, you sure know how to get everyone's attention around here!

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ANYWAY, I'd like once again point that I am only talking about a soundtrack here - maybe seeing the movie helps me to "get into" the music, as it did with A.I. ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE (although I still don't consider A.I. as a Williams masterpiece).

But I AM talking about MUSIC here and its initial impact - I mean that when I initially heard E.T. THE EXTRA TERRESTRIAL, I fell in love. So it happened also with DRACULA, SUPERMAN, FAMILY PLOT, HOW TO STEAL A MILLION, JAWS 2, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, SPACE CAMP, AMAZING STORIES, THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK, THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST, HOME ALONE and many other marvelous titles by John Williams.

But I do admit that during the latter half of the 90's I started having troubles with Williams' "new" style that seemed to go nowhere - Scott, I DARE YOU to disagree with the fact that especially SLEEPERS, ROSEWOOD, SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, AMISTAD, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and even THE PHANTOM MENACE are musically linked together; if the main themes from these are taken together they would indeed make a most perfect, seamless compilation. No surprises there - all of them perfectly in the same sound and style, although there are different solo instruments, vocals, whatever.

So, Scott, I'm NOT judging Williams on one score only - I have quietly realized the fact during the entire 90's that Williams has stepped into a new "era", a new style where he obviously is trying to avoid all the sugar he once poured into his most magical works. YES Scott, I totally admit it that I INDEED long for the style of the YOUNG Williams, as I also wish the entire world to take one giant leap back to the days when sincerity was true - nowadays the words "innocence", "young at heart" and "individuality" are regarded as something ugly and stupid, and it's horrible to realize that the same things are avoided even in film music, and even by the maestros such as John Williams. - But I also happen to realize that changing film music will not save our planet

Basically it's all again about TASTES, but let me yet defend my opinion on the POTTER score's initial impact. Today, at my younger brother's birthday party I was able to play the POTTER soundtrack to some people. Now, my 18-years-young sister happens to love the HOOK movie but hasn't listened to the HOOK score own its own - and yet, after hearing only a snippet of "Hedwig's Theme" she recognized it as HOOK, particularly the cue "Presenting the Hook". But this was just for starters, because my stepmother (who really doesn't appreciate film music and has NO knowledge in it) came to the scene and said "Oh, you are listening music from that Christmas film!" - YES, she referred HOME ALONE !! (And we were listening to "Harry's Wondrous World".)

- Of all the hype of how great and talented composer John Williams is, it's hard to understand why he, in his infinite wisdom, makes music for a particular movie to resemble ANOTHER movie... I just can't get it; he has always defended the importance of well-crafted score - and still he does this..! Now, (although I don't mean it literally) ISN'T IT A VERY GOOD REASON for him to retire when he starts breaking his own rules ?

Please, people, please understand that I'm not talking here about film music similarities in overall, but about ONE SPECIFIC COMPOSER, who has been praised for his understanding of film music, who is referred to as a God, the one who NEVER can make a single wrong note. I still DO NOT hate him and I do not hate the POTTER score; I only want to point out that he is NOT the God whose every score is most perfect just because they are done by him.

Just one thing more,
and it is directed to Nicolai P. Zwar
"- - how come one listens to a score one considers a major disappointment 'over and over...again and again' ?"
- WELL, Nicolai, I do hope that more people would do it before throwing wild accusations.

Everybody, please do not forget the mark "?" on the topic,
thank you very much

But I'm more on Kosh's side about the importance of EMOTIONAL originality.

And, Marian FEAR NOT - I haven't collected Goldsmith in ages with the exception of THE MUMMY and THE HAUNTING, and I've already done some critical reviews on those

And, what Bulldog said,
WELL, HA HA HAAA !!! I THINK I HIT THE JACKPOT this time - people actually DO post replies into a thread of mine !!!
Thanks everybody for participating, even if we don't agree on the subject

I feel helpless I can't defend HP or beat it up....hmmm.......so what am I doing here? Uh bye.

Circle gets a square.

Williams has gone through phases throughout his career.

In 1978, The Fury (track 9) and Jaws 2 (Track 1) share nearly the exact music; same with Jaws 2 (track 2) and Superman ("March Of The Villains").

The theme from Dracula is quoted damn near verbatim in The Empire Strikes Back (see the arrival at Cloud City), and the tone of Empire is quite similar to Empire.

Return Of The Jedi was pretty much a cannibalization of Williams' past work (the Emperor's theme plays like an alternate of his "Ark theme" from Raiders; the final duel is a re-arrangement of his opening music from E.T., adding a chorus; the victory music at the end of "The Return Of The Jedi" is another E.T. moment), and you can hear Vader's theme in Nixon.

These are only a couple of examples, but they all disprove your theory that Williams was more original "back then."

Shaun

I disagree with the very concept of your opinion. I hear just as much magic and emotion in Harry Potter as I do in E.T. I hear the "innocence," "young at heart," "individuality" in Potter that you don't seem to have grasped onto.

Long conversations about originality or similarities in music, the nuances of a composers style... this is all pretty much meaningless when the only real point at hand is personal taste. I love Harry; I find the score very magical. I think Williams has retained every microliter of the magic he had twenty years ago in his current scores. If you don't, that's okay. I'll call it your loss, and you can call it mine.

James

The score is a masterpieve, one of Williams greatest. Kosh, as Scott said that is the dumbest statement I've ever heard and don't try to defend yourself. 30sec sound clips, my ass. And espically not with Goldenthal. I shall be back later, I even wonder if it's worth my time to post in this thread.

As to Ken, I think Scott has covered everything (see below)

--Brian

NP: K-PAX

Scott, I DARE YOU to disagree with the fact that especially SLEEPERS, ROSEWOOD, SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET, AMISTAD, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and even THE PHANTOM MENACE are musically linked together; if the main themes from these are taken together they would indeed make a most perfect, seamless compilation. No surprises there - all of them perfectly in the same sound and style, although there are different solo instruments, vocals, whatever.

You dared me and I take the challenge. I disagree. Yes, you can hear his style in all of the scores but to say that Sleepers, Roswood and Phantom are musically linked together is to say that Star Wars, The Missioury Breaks and Schindler's List are musically linked. Sorry, my ears just don't hear what yours seem to hear or want to hear.

So, Scott, I'm NOT judging Williams on one score only - I have quietly realized the fact during the entire 90's that Williams has stepped into a new "era", a new style where he obviously is trying to avoid all the sugar he once poured into his most magical works.

I don't think he is trying to do that. I find so many emotions in his scores today. Again, his style has changed. He dosen't simply write a theme and plays it over and over again, but he hints to it, a second here a second there, something he started with Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. His scores are more complicated...but I am repeating myself here.

YES Scott, I totally admit it that I INDEED long for the style of the YOUNG Williams, as I also wish the entire world to take one giant leap back to the days when sincerity was true - nowadays the words "innocence", "young at heart" and "individuality" are regarded as something ugly and stupid,...

Nothing wrong with longing for the old Williams (or younger one, or whatever). But that doesn't mean the Williams now is less talented or skilled than way back then. On your point about innocence being regarded as ugly and stupid, I totally agree. Our times are terrible when it comes to innocent emotions and the like. Very sad indeed.

Today, at my younger brother's birthday party...

Happy Birthday, younger brother.

Now, my 18-years-young sister happens to love the HOOK movie ...and yet, after hearing only a snippet of "Hedwig's Theme" she recognized it as HOOK, particularly the cue "Presenting the Hook". But this was just for starters, because my stepmother (who really doesn't appreciate film music and has NO knowledge in it) came to the scene and said "Oh, you are listening music from that Christmas film!" - YES, she referred HOME ALONE !! (And we were listening to "Harry's Wondrous World".)

All I can say is that the problem lies with your respected sister and your mother not with Williams. My brother didn't mistake Potter with Hook and he loves Hook. He certainly didn't mistake it with Home Alone, trust me in that, for he loathes Home Alone. What can I say, I can go out to the nearest street corner and play Beethoven and Zimmer and someone will show up and swear the selections were written by the same person. Again, it's a problem of the listener, not the composer.

- Of all the hype of how great and talented composer John Williams is, it's hard to understand why he, in his infinite wisdom, makes music for a particular movie to resemble ANOTHER movie... I just can't get it; he has always defended the importance of well-crafted score - and still he does this..! Now, (although I don't mean it literally) ISN'T IT A VERY GOOD REASON for him to retire when he starts breaking his own rules ?

Dude, Home Alone is about Christmas, Hook plays around Christmans time and Potter has a Christmas scene, it all makes perfect sense. Next thing you will want is the next Star Wars film written in the style of The Missioury Breaks.

... who is referred to as a God, the one who NEVER can make a single wrong note. I still DO NOT hate him and I do not hate the POTTER score; I only want to point out that he is NOT the God whose every score is most perfect just because they are done by him.

I don't see anyone doing that. John Williams, last I looked, is a film composer. Now if he became God, please let me know, for currently I am still whorshipping Jesus Christ.

Everybody, please do not forget the mark "?" on the topic,
thank you very much

Haven't forgotten it.

Later,

Scott

--Brian

Personally the last couple of years has been a very interesting period for Williams scores. Saving Private Ryan and A.I is among the very finest film scores I've heard in perhaps 10 years.

Harry Potter will grow on you, and you will come back to this message board and regret every word you've spoken.
Trust me. This one is destined to be a classic.

- Thomas

Composer/Orchestrator/Arranger
http://home.online.no/~finjaco

I really don't understand why you listen to film music in the first place. The rest of the composer pack rips and borrows at a MUCH larger extent than Williams has ever done.

- Thomas

So much of what we consider magical has to do with who we were and what we were feeling at the time we heard things we might consider "magical". When I was 18 I heard ET for the first time and I thought it was magical (see; uplifting, optimistic, etc) in the cliche sense. Now when I listen to it it seems more manipulative than magical.

John Williams is practically 70 years old and has written hours and hours of music. He writes music for the film, and for himself. Maybe he's outgrown this obvious sense of wonder so many fans want from him and has moved on. Some of us might want to evolve with him.

Np: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace: The Ultimate Edition Disc 1 (John Williams)

quote:

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Originally posted by jazz2k:
I would say that of all the film music composers around, John Williams has the most developed personal sound and style.

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That's a good point. Back in the 70's/early 80's, there was a distinct Williams sound, but his style was mainly largely on that of Golden Age composers and others. Of course Williams had his own devices back then as he has now (one of the best is his Timpani writing), but the overall style and harmonies were nothing new.

Since then, Williams has expanded and developed his own style. Scores like Phantom Menace sound much more like "real" Williams.

quote:

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Originally posted by John Zimmer:
Whoa you Hobbits go now!

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great."

Originally I was going to write my topic post as another BRICK-NOVEL, explaining all about that my reaction to POTTER score is due to my own taste of what I consider as "magical". But naturally, I didn't want to exhaust you, or myself by writing yet another mile-long topic post. (Please check the earlier thread "OVER THE MOON" if you want to know what I regard as "magical").

A SHOCKING REVELATION: I did caricaturize things purposely and left things unsaid purposely - only wishing this would create conversation. And WOW, it did INDEED create a conversation, but one that shows how many people here also like to caricaturize things and twist other people's words (-but isn't it all what makes a good debate ?)

I've said it once, I've said it twice, that this is mainly about the initial impact of a soundtrack. I have always been defending the importance of original ACTUAL movie scores, and I did make it clear that even HARRY POTTER music may find its place within the movie. But any soundtrack SHOULD NOT BE celebrated just because it is released with a massive media circus. But naturally it is also about my personal opinion - an opinion which is based on
almost 1 5 Y E A R S of being an enthusiastic John Williams collector.

So I REALLY suggest, Thomas and company, that you READ A L L of the posts in a thread before saying things like
"You are obviously not capable of enjoying the incredible music that Williams writes, and thus you should remain silent."

Another thing written by jazz2k, Thomas:
"At least until you've - - listened through the score a couple of more times."
- It's a pity some people just can't read.

Sincerely,
KEN

But really, Ken(ny) seems to be more alive than ever before.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken S:
Here's a newsflash for all of you:
When music is GOOD the possible similarities DON'T matter. That's why I love John Williams' Golden Age.
10-29-2001]

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Wait a minute are you saying that you think that Williams is not producing anything good now a days? I thought in an earlier post that you loved TPM?

I read you loud & clear .
Doesn't look like too many others do, however.

*******************************************************************

I assume that TPM is short for THE PHANTOM MENACE. As you, JZ, recalled it right, I consider Williams' sound on PHANTOM MENACE a delightful mix of recognizable classic composers - and even if I'm wrong, I thought Williams did it purposely for "old times' sake" (- it has been said about STAR WARS that Williams got teenagers interested in classical music because of his original score)...

And despite I've had some troubles with Williams' more mature style, I do not hate his scores like ROSEWOOD, AMISTAD or SLEEPERS (nor HARRY POTTER)... They do contain some very beautiful and exciting music - but still the overall style is, in my opinion, UNsurprising and mostly UNemotional, and I'm speaking only about the music heard without the movie images.

I've heard the soundtrack - it's obviously a masterpiece. Exactly what we expected; exactly what was called for with this kind of film.

Ken has tried to make his point, with little success. He will not be persuaded otherwise.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken S:
it has been said about STAR WARS that Williams got teenagers interested in classical music because of his original score

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Me, for example.

Yeah there are a few and from what I have heard so far, very few references to prior Williams scores. But hey it is to be expected, show me a composer that hasn't. Herrmann did it quite a few times himself as well as Steiner.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Olivarez:
I'm listening to Harry Potter right now, if you go to JWFAN.net they have a link to AOL presenting the complete score on Real Player.

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I just listened to the entire HARRY POTTER score and loved it. Harry's "theme" is a beautiful melody and I don't think anyone could contradict that. Right??? (If you haven't heard it yet, get back to me tomorrow or Wednesday.)

By the way, GREAT discussion. Thanks for posting it. Very entertaining. I find myself agreeing a little bit with each of you. Even though, KEN S, it was saddening to read your first post, but I respect your opinion. Just hope Johnny didn't hear it. =O)

AND -- what do you all think? After this mail/anthrax scare fizzles away, I was thinking of writing to the studios, asking them to consider including scoring featurettes on their DVDs. For those of you who haven't seen the "web documentaries" on the PHANTOM MENACE DVD, check it out. Woudn't it be cool to see Williams -- and all other composers -- conduct the orchestra and score the films with us having a front-row seat? (I hope DreamWorks thinks of this for A.I.!)

Now -- to raise a different issue...since Williams is nominated every year for SOMETHING, what do you think will be his 40th nomination for 2001? A.I. or HARRY POTTER? Will he receive a 41st for "For Always" (from A.I.) as Best Original Song?

Hope to read responses soon. Thanks again, and have a great day/evening.

A devoted Williams fan,
CBmogul

P.S. KEN: How can you say that ROSEWOOD isn't emotional? Have you not heard "Look Down Lord" and felt emotion? Did the moaning solo at the beginning of AMISTAD not fill you in on the exhausted spirit of the African Americans onboard "La Amistad"? Didn't "Dry Your Tears, Afrika" not shout out a "We Will Surive" at you? And I'm not African American, but that sure-as-Hell screamed that at me.
THOMAS/JAZZZ(whatever): the comment on "people under 20 years of age" is right up there with "I did not have sexual relations with Miss Lewinsky." Completely assinine, arrogant, and full of $h!*. use your head when you're talking and not your foot. Ummm..
Marian: Hilarious!
Scott: You too!
To all James Horner-ites. If I hear that damn 4-note trumpet thing he puts in everything (THE PERFECT STORM, ENEMY AT THE GATES, LEGENDS OF THE FALL, THE MASK OF ZORRO [to name a FEW]), I'm going to scream. James should go toot his horn someplace else.
To all Goldsmith-ites: I admire your man. THE LAST CASTLE was very reverent and moving, in my opinion, particularly "The Flag" and "September 11, 2001 - Theme from THE LAST CASTLE". RUDY is great as is SOME of the STAR TREK scores. But, even though he helped out little ol' Johnny back in the day, it seems the apprentice has overcome the master and he is the ultimate ruler of the film music Empire. Just a thought....

I don't think Williams should retire, but I admit the last time I was REALLY impressed by one of his scores was back in 1993 with SCHINDLER'S LIST (and THE PHANTON MENACE, of course).

But considering the kind of movies he is scoring in the past years - SEVEN THOUSAND YEARS IN TIBET, JURASSIC CRAP, SLEEPING PRIVATE RYAN, THE IDIOT, ARTIFICIAL IMBECIALITY, etc - it isn't a surprise he can't compose his old magical scores anylonger...

quote:

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Originally posted by CBmogul:
Now -- to raise a different issue...since Williams is nominated every year for SOMETHING, what do you think will be his 40th nomination for 2001? A.I. or HARRY POTTER? Will he receive a 41st for "For Always" (from A.I.) as Best Original Song?

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I would not be the least bit surprised if he was nominated for both scores. That could greatly reduce his chances of winning either one, though.

While I fervently disagree with everything you have put forward in this discussion, I just want you to know that I still respect what you are saying and find it offensive that some people are taking it so offensively. In the end, it's your opinion, and it's nothing for people to get so angry over.