Author
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Topic: The Music of Episode 2
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jburrows
Oscar® Nominee
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Ok everyone, let's keep this post short and to the point. Upon viewing ATOC twice today, I cannot understand why so much of John William's score for the movie was hacked to pieces, particularly the second half of the film.
Any thoughts why? My only guess was that the film's final sequences were changed after the scoring session, therefore Lucas did not have time to use the score intended for the scenes. What bothers me most was that this has happened twice now, first with TPM and now ATOC. We will probably never ever hear the score that Williams really composed.
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posted 05-16-2002 07:27 PM PT (US) ip
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Christopher
Oscar® Winner
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I'd like to believe that your suggestion regarding "lack of time" is correct, but something inside won't let me.I don't see how ANY deadline would mean that Lucas would have to use music from TPM in AOTC. Surely, Williams had already composed a good bit of action music for the finale that Lucas et al could have hacked up but still used. The music of SW is an entity to itself, and to actually reuse music from another episode just comes off as "cheap" to me. Of course most won't notice but still..."cheap cheap" It's not like he had Evan Chen scoring this film. My God, are you saying, Georgie, that the Maestro couldn't come up with something good enough to use?....something better than his work for TPM??? "It boggles the mind."
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posted 05-16-2002 07:39 PM PT (US) ip
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Kosh
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
It's not like he had Evan Chen scoring this film.
LOL :) Good one. And by the way, people, not that I care, but it's "AOTC", not "ATOC". "Attack Of The Clones". Anyways....
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posted 05-16-2002 08:26 PM PT (US) ip
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Laurence Page
Oscar® Winner
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I saw the film last night and was expecting the worst, music-wise. I was disappointed with the album release (lack of strong themes, etc) but seeing the movie I felt there was a really good score trying to get out (When you could hear it!). Apart from the final arena battle (which was so loud it was hard to hear what music was used - but I did detect TPM in there in parts, and maybe a bit of ROJ). I'd love to hear the complete score - there was loads more to the score than the album. The music following the opening crawl was different (like TPM) - I don't think it's on the album. Please let this music get the release it deserves...
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posted 05-17-2002 01:55 AM PT (US) ip
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John Zimmer
Oscar® Winner
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I was expecting much worse edits then what was in the film. Don't get me wrong there were many places were the edits could have been handled much better.Also I want 2CD release if only for the end Yoda Battle. Wowser!!  Jz
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posted 05-17-2002 04:39 AM PT (US) ip
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TV's Frank
Oscar® Winner
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I thoroughly have enjoyed the AOTC score album for weeks now, but after seeing the film last night it is going to be difficult for me to enjoy the music again while images of that awful film play in my head. I wish I could erase some of those scenes from my memory and just enjoy the music as an album again. So much great music was either unused or misused and with Lucas butchering up the music for the end battle, it never draws you in emotionally, which is what a good film score is meant to do. Bascially, all you end up hearing at the end is snippets of brass chirping away and strings sliding around and it almost just sounds like part of the sounds effects, instead of music meant to provoke an emotional response from the viewer. If Lucas could let go (like his Jedi are supposed to!) and trust his team to do their jobs intelligently then Williams could have provided the climax with the emotional undercurrent it sorely needed. People keep talking about Lucas and how these are HIS films, so we can't criticize. I disagree completely. These are not his films, they simply contain his story ideas and dialogue and he directed them. But film is a collaborative art - always has, always will be. That film belongs to Doug Chiang, Ben Burtt, John Williams, Anthony Daniels, etc, etc, etc. And Lucas just screwed them all royally.
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posted 05-17-2002 10:27 AM PT (US) ip
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Quill
Oscar® Winner
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Hey Frank...why don't you go and ask someone like Doug Chiang if they feel they've been screwed...I don't think you'll get the answer you expect.This brings to mind Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back (which I saw for the first time last night!)...the internet is simply a medium for people to bitch about movies. A place where people are stupid enough (like me) to even respond. I guess all the rampant negativity is the result of decades of going unheard. Oh well, cry away all, in the end nobody really cares anyway. From the cheering responses from the sold out audience I saw AOTC with and the endless clapping at the end of the film I guess most people enjoyed it. But heh, what do we know?
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posted 05-17-2002 11:20 AM PT (US) ip
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jeffy
Oscar® Winner
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Quill, I was one of those that applauded and enjoyed the film (and did my usuall personal applause when John Williams' name appeared).That doesn't mean we totally forget the missteps.
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posted 05-17-2002 11:29 AM PT (US) ip
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TV's Frank
Oscar® Winner
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Quill, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I did not. I am not someone who gets on the internet to bitch. I usually don't care to share my feelings on the net about every topic like other posters might, because again, what does it matter? Their my opinions and I know what I like. This is all just some people chatting it up, like we would in a pub. Now, I know a good movie from a bad movie, Star Wars or not. This was bad movie, poorly executed. If it was not Star Wars, more people would be complaining. I think I feel like posting my thoughts because I never thought I could dislike a Star Wars film, ever. My god, my first memories were of watching ANH in the theater at 4 years of age. ESB shaped how I saw film and film scores for the rest of my life. And ROTJ was a great capper on the first 10 years of my life. I already liked AOTC before I saw it. Loved the score, loved the "Art of..." book, loved what I read about individual scenes. I was completely shocked when, while actually watching AOTC, I disliked how it was executed and assembled. And as much as others have the right to post about how much they loved AOTC, don't refer to me as someone who bitches just because I post saying how I disliked it. For the love of God, can we just be adults for one damn minute and just agree to disagree?
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posted 05-17-2002 11:55 AM PT (US) ip
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SPQR
Oscar® Winner
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Well Frank, it should seem abundantly clear by now that most people don't give a hoot about storytelling...they just wanna see things blow up.
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posted 05-17-2002 03:04 PM PT (US) ip
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sakman
Oscar® Winner
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OK, here's a question....Listen to the original releases of the music for Episodes 4-6 and explain how they differ from what has happened in this film? It seems to me that there is a bit more editing, but that it is no different than before. The difference is that we are overly familiar with the music.
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posted 05-18-2002 10:27 AM PT (US) ip
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UCFKevin
Oscar® Winner
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I'm glad you folks feel the same way I do about the score. I'm just so deeply disappointed by AOTC's horrible use of TPM's music. It IS indeed very cheap, and rather sloppy and kinda unprofessional. The "no time" theory cannot be true. This is Star Wars. There's ALWAYS time for Star Wars. It cannot be rushed. Why would Lucas let this happen? Whether or not he did the changes himself or oversaw them, he better feel horrible about not using what Williams spent his OWN damn time on creating and composing, wasting a few days of his life for nothing. Do you think if an expanded 2 CD release came out, would it have all the TPM music again? That would just be completely ridiculous and insulting to moviemusic fans. I just cannot understand how this happened. It made me so upset I didn't enjoy the movie as much as I could've. So, I'm seeing it again and I'll focus on the movie, not the bad music edits. At least what WAS new was mostly incredible, especially the Emperor's theme use.
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posted 05-18-2002 07:02 PM PT (US) ip
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Mark Olivarez
Oscar® Winner
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Having seen the film the music editing and use of TPM is downright disgusting and really subtracted from what was a greatly entertaining film.
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posted 05-19-2002 07:51 AM PT (US) ip
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UCFKevin
Oscar® Winner
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Completely agree.
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posted 05-19-2002 01:58 PM PT (US) ip
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UCFKevin
Oscar® Winner
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HOWEVER, upon second viewing, it's a lot less upsetting and distracting. Check it out again. I loved the HELL out of AOTC the 2nd time, much more than the first, since I already knew what would happen in the score.
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posted 05-19-2002 09:18 PM PT (US) ip
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JJH
Oscar® Winner
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I guess if Williams hadn't signed on to do Minority Report and Harry Pooter 2 in addition to whatever else he has going on in his life, he'd have had time to re-score the film.
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posted 05-20-2002 12:20 AM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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The music from Track 12 ('The Arena') is there. It starts when Anakin hops onto the reek (the one that looks like a Triceratops).What I'm not sure is whether it's all there, or whether it stops half way for the TPM music to come in. After all, the arena scene is much longer than the Arena music we got on the CD.
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posted 05-20-2002 03:28 AM PT (US) ip
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dgoldwas
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Camillu:
After all, the arena scene is much longer than the Arena music we got on the CD.
Yeah - but Williams reportedly wrote and recorded over two hours of music.... that leaves a lot of music NOT on the CD, and (obviously) a bunch of music not in the film..... Dan
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posted 05-20-2002 07:02 AM PT (US) ip
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Quill
Oscar® Winner
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Sorry if I came off a little harsh Frank...yes, we can agree to disagree here.I enjoyed the film even more on my second viewing (of course I wasn't sitting in the second row this time!). And as I paid even closer attention to the music on my second go-round it still didn't bother me. I have no doubt that Lucas was tweaking the final 30-minutes up until the end...and it is highly possible that he preferred the Phantom cue over what Williams' had originally written for the scene. Perhaps due to the edits it simply didn't fit, or perhaps Lucas just wasn't overly fond of it. It's possible for the Maestro to write a sub-par piece after all. In the end, I for the most part enjoyed the use of the music.
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posted 05-20-2002 07:11 AM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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In his CNN interview on May 15th, Williams said he hadn't yet seen the completed film, but only the working edit he used to record the score in London. He then said that some weekend soon he'd probably find a day off and go watch it at a theatre near his home.Do you think it's at all possible that Williams hasn't seen these Arena changes yet?
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posted 05-20-2002 08:18 AM PT (US) ip
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Luc
Oscar® Nominee
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Hey Frank, I'm with you. I'm a huge star wars fan and now I realize that the time has come and passed. I disliked AOTC even more than TPM because at least you have Darth Maul in TPM. George can do whatever he wants. My time has come. I just can't get excited about another star wars film now. I really did feel depress after the movie because I really wanted to like it.I'm glad some of you liked it. I wish I could be in your shoes but I can't. I did try and second viewing was even worst than the first.
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posted 05-20-2002 12:44 PM PT (US) ip
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Bladeisback
Oscar® Nominee
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critizing is so much easier than creating, though spending our money on theater tickets or dvds etc sort of gives us some "rights" to express our unsatisfaction...AOTC: it could have been better, even the CGI could have been better at times, especially from ILM... but I had much fun and even felt some SWars emotion ( Obiwan, Anakin's mother death etc ). but i agree, this is so much different than the first trilogy... yet, the worlds were maybe like that before the Empire ruled and the rebels had to hide ?.... Lucas is a bad director imho. the editing and the actors' direction was not great. but there are some reference scenes that will be played and replayed in home theaters, starting in November... true that this alone does not suffice and EMPIRE STRIKES BACK or A NEW HOPE can be watched and rewatched entirely...
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posted 05-20-2002 02:07 PM PT (US) ip
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TV's Frank
Oscar® Winner
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Quill, I apologize as well, sorry if responded harshly!
Well, I am headed to see the film again tomorrow, this time in a digital theater. It certainly will be cleaner and clearer, but I don't think it will help Hayden's performance any!Also, I know it is easy to criticize, I've said that for years, but there is something to be said for being a discerning shopper/viewer. This is completely different. If you like everything put out there, than you're pretty much a slave of marketing and hype, which will always tell you that what you just bought/witnessed was the greatest thing since sliced bread. And this is not possible. There are products/films that are crap and those that are worth my time. Being a discerning viewer does not mean being a cynic. I am quite the optimist. And though I was disappointed with AOTC does not mean that I am no longer a Star Wars fan. Same thing in that even though I hated the Voyager Trek series, I am still a huge fan of the original series and Next Generation. It just means I don't blindly love everything produced for these franchises. Sure I love to see familiar, well-liked characters in action again (like Obi-wan), but if the material isn't compelling enough, then there is no excuse. Again, maybe I was not in the right frame of mind on opening day, too much expectation or something. I am anxious to see it again tomorrow and just relax with the picture - no friends or girlfriends in tow, no gripes about the music edits, and I'm ready to be swept away this time!
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posted 05-20-2002 02:26 PM PT (US) ip
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Quill
Oscar® Winner
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Well said Frank. In general I will manage to find something to like in any movie I see...saves me from disappointment (most of the time!)I wouldn't say that I'm not a discerning movie fan, I do take note of a film's faults, but in general I don't allow them to supercede the positive. AND...I still stand by my statement that Christiansen did a fine job with the role, and provide more charisma that Mark Hamill.
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posted 05-21-2002 09:40 AM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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:OJust read the finalised cue list over at www.JWFan.net. If you thought 'some' TPM music was tracked in, have a look at this: _______________________ Love Pledge and The Arena (6:57) * Track 12 [0:00-6:57]
A rumbling swell leads to perhaps Williams' most impassioned statement of the love theme. It starts softly during the pledge then blossoms into a magnificent, sweeping statement as the lovers are wheeled into the arena. There are some xylophone effects for the Geonosians during a short passage that precedes a new march for the arena monsters. Developed over the next four minutes, the march is Rozsa-like, similar in style to the droid march and the flag parade from The Phantom Menace. Most of it has been cut from the film, in favor of silence. From this point on, through the duration of the army battle sequences, it all goes to the Sith. There are dozens of frequent edits and splices. Almost all of the music is tracked from TPM. Ironically enough, some of it was written for TPM, not actually used in TPM, and makes its first film apperance in AOTC. Confused? Understandable. Some of this music was heard in the various TPM computer games. THE BATTLE OF GEONOSIS I (6:21)
Mace Windu Arrives (0:06) * TPM computer game -- sqdanger1.imc
Mace Ignites His Lightsaber (0:06) * Unknown
"This party's over!" (0:06) * TPM:UE, Disc 1, Track 3 [1:55-2:01]
The Jedi Reveal Themselves (0:12) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 4 [0:50-0:56/0:58-1:01/1:04-1:13]
Back to the Balcony (0:02) * TPM computer game -- sqdanger1.imc [0:08-end] (last note)
Impossibly Outnumbered (0:10) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 3 [2:02-2:13]
Super Battle Droids Advance (0:04) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 9 [3:01-end]
The Battle Begins (0:28) * TPM:OST Track 9 [1:58-2:26]
Jedi vs. Droids (0:14) * TPM:OST Track14 [0:50-1:04]
Stolen Chariot (0:40) * SW:E1 RACER computer game -- Podloop1.wav [0:01-end]/TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 33 [1:44-end]
The Battle Continues (0:32) * TPM:OST Track 9 [2:27-2:59]
The Reek Charges (0:38) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 12 [0:09-0:41]
Mace vs. Jango (0:04) * Unknown (a few looped notes)
Mace Decapitates Jango (0:03) * TPM computer game -- sqplayerdeath.imc
Jango is Dead (0:02) * Unknown (a few timpani hits)
Count Dooku and Boba React (0:08) * TPM:OST Track 13 [4:34-4:42]
Threepio Down/Aggressive Negotiations/Obi-Wan vs. The Acklay (1:06) * TPM:OST Track 5 [0:26-0:45/0:19-0:24/0:46-0:49/0:55- 1:25/2:20-2:30]
"This is such a drag!" (0:20) * TPM:OST Track 9 [1:36-1:57]
Surrounded (0:39) * TPM:OST Track 5 [1:51-2:23/2:29-end] THE BATTLE OF GEONOSIS II (1:34)
The Droids Re-activate (0:02) * Unknown (timpani rumble)
Imminent Execution (0:11) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 14 [1:02-1:13]
Send in the Clones (1:04) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 15 [0:03-0:29/0:51-0:58/1:01-1:38]
A Most Peculiar Dream (0:08) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 14 [1:00-1:08]
Boba Mourns (0:08) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 3 [1:55-2:02] THE BATTLE OF GEONOSIS III (1:41)
Underground Chamber (0:04) * Unknown (timpani swell)
Dire Straits (0:13) * Conflict Theme (probably tracked from "The Councils Confer")
Republic Gunships (0:48) * TPM:OST Track 6 [0:03-0:48]
Spider Walker (0:08) * TPM:OST Track 10 [4:02-4:10]
"Attack those Federation Starships" (0:14) * TPM:OST Track 14 [2:27-2:41]
Reporting to Master Yoda (0:10) * TPM:OST Track 14 [3:15-3:25] THE BATTLE OF GEONOSIS IV (1:57)
The Ultimate Weapon (0:47) * Tracked from "Spying on the Separatists" * Track 10 [6:45-6:50/6:08-6:51] (ends with timpani-roll snippet)
Wheel Tanks (0:10) * TPM:UE Disc 1, Track 5 [0:02-0:12]
Droid Explosion (0:05) * TPM computer game -- sqplayerdeath.imc (a few extra timpani hits tacked on)
The Conspirators Escape (0:26) * Tracked from "Arrival at Kamino" * Track 1 [2:13-2:39]
Concentrating All Fire (0:44) * Jedi Power Battles computer game -- Track 5 [0:15-0:59] _______________ I'm very curious to see what they intend to release as an Ultimate Edition...
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posted 05-21-2002 03:52 PM PT (US) ip
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Christopher
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
I'm very curious to see what they intend to release as an Ultimate Edition...[/B]
Oh my freak! That is terrible! I can't believe he reused TPM THAT much. I guess since I didn't notice it in so many places, it was well done???...I suppose...maybe. As for the UE of AOTC, I'm guessing they slap in the TPM disc along with the AOTC disc we already have - slap a foil blue Dooku face with yellow eyes on the cover and...done. ...and just why is it that anything SW that gets expanded, ultimatized, or special-editionized, is made worse????
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posted 05-21-2002 09:54 PM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
...and just why is it that anything SW that gets expanded, ultimatized, or special-editionized, is made worse????
Erm the Special Edition soundtracks of the Original Trilogy are a superb listen, even with the reuse of music from ANH in ROTJ. One of the reasons is that even though the picture cuts quickly from scene to scene, the music doens't. Williams is great at this, given the time. But when the music is cut and pasted to fit newly edited scenes, then we end up with suites like the ones in TPM:UE, where each scene cut is painfully obvious.
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posted 05-22-2002 03:57 AM PT (US) ip
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Marian Schedenig
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher:
I guess since I didn't notice it in so many places, it was well done???...I suppose...maybe.
It wasn't well done at all. And since the battle was so boring, I heard the music all the time...
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posted 05-22-2002 08:45 AM PT (US) ip
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Christopher
Oscar® Winner
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Having just seen it (again), but this time in marvelous DLP, I have to say that the use of music from TPM is a downright abomination.The digitally projected version of this film is remarkable, but I paid attention to the music specifically this time...and the edits are worse than I thought...bits of TPM fading out...as JW's original music fades in over the top...its some of the worst editing I have heard in a film.
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posted 05-23-2002 09:41 PM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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At this point I think there is one good (and possibly feasible) solution.Williams and Lucas said they might re-score ANH for the DVD release. Well, now that Williams has a final copy of AOTC, maybe he can re-score the battle of Geonosis. Probably just wishful thinking, but you never know. Remember Lucas' "films are never finished' policy.
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posted 05-23-2002 10:58 PM PT (US) ip
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Marian Schedenig
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Camillu:
Probably just wishful thinking, but you never know. Remember Lucas' "films are never finished' policy.
And remember that this is the reason why the Hyperspace cue got butchered at the end of ESB:SE... 
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posted 05-24-2002 06:39 AM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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It did?Do you mean that the Hyperspace on the SE Score is different from the Original one?
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posted 05-24-2002 07:03 AM PT (US) ip
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Quill
Oscar® Winner
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In the end the film comes first...the extended scenes at the end TESB provide for a better flow. Hopefully he can get Williams to rescore the cue for the eventual "definitive" DVD release.And Marian...did you say the final battle in AOTC is boring...are you sure you weren't mistakingly watching Harry Potter? 
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posted 05-24-2002 07:19 AM PT (US) ip
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Marian Schedenig
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Quill:
In the end the film comes first...the extended scenes at the end TESB provide for a better flow.
It didn't. I don't think the Vader scenes added anything, but the edits in the score broke the tension. After all, the Hyperspace cues is a loong musical build-up. You can't just splice Vader's theme in there and not ruin it. (Camillu: In the film, the cue on the CD is perfectly alright, I'm just talking about the movie here). quote:
Hopefully he can get Williams to rescore the cue for the eventual "definitive" DVD release.
That of course would be nice. quote:
And Marian...did you say the final battle in AOTC is boring...are you sure you weren't mistakingly watching Harry Potter?
Potter has a plot. The big battle doesn't. (The finale of it - the Dooku fight - does, and it's excellent). Which was another reason why the tracked TPM cues were so annoying - with nothing but hollow action happening on the screen, I concentrated on the score. NP: Jean Sibelius: Kullervo (Bournemouth SO, Berglund)
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posted 05-24-2002 10:19 AM PT (US) ip
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jeffy
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
..this is the reason why the Hyperspace cue got butchered at the end of ESB:SE...
Just thinking about that makes me sad....and the main reason why I don't want just the Special Editions on DVD.
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posted 05-24-2002 01:39 PM PT (US) ip
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Swashbuckler
Oscar® Winner
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There was plenty of music edited from The Empire Strikes Back, but, for the most part, the score maintained its identity. The changes that were made actually, in some cases, helped the film and the presentation of the score therein.The climax of Return of the Jedi, on the other hand, was also quite horribly musically butchered, also bringing in elements of the score from previous chapters, and also loses a lot of power by being omnipresent.
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posted 05-27-2002 07:47 AM PT (US) ip
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Marian Schedenig
Oscar® Winner
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quote:
Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
There was plenty of music edited from The Empire Strikes Back, but, for the most part, the score maintained its identity. The changes that were made actually, in some cases, helped the film and the presentation of the score therein.
Well, the tracked hyperspace cue in the Hoth search sequence annoys me every time I watch it. quote:
The climax of Return of the Jedi, on the other hand, was also quite horribly musically butchered, also bringing in elements of the score from previous chapters, and also loses a lot of power by being omnipresent.
...and again the hyperspace cue, which is tracked in when the Death Star reactor blows up. NP: Sibelius: Symphony #5 (Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra, Berglund)
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posted 05-27-2002 02:26 PM PT (US) ip
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Camillu
Oscar® Winner
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I was speaking to a friend of mine today who hasn't seen the original trilogy, and it occured to me that for all the future people who see the saga in order, the first full performance of the Imperial March is at the end of AOTC.Wonder how that must feel... Weird.
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posted 05-28-2002 12:50 AM PT (US) ip
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Quill
Oscar® Winner
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If they are viewing the films sequentially then the first roar of the Imperial March is perfect! Dare I say more powerful than its birth in TESB.
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posted 05-28-2002 01:17 PM PT (US) ip
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Marian Schedenig
Oscar® Winner
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Quite probably. Though they'll never experience how good Vader's revelation in ESB is... 
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posted 05-28-2002 05:32 PM PT (US) ip
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