Because of personal allegiences or attachments to certain composers we, (film music lovers in general) seem to have a need to persuade others that what we like is the best, not only for us, but should be for them too. If it's Zimmer or Goldsmith or Horner or Williams or Elfman or whoever, disagreements invariably erupt and strong and almost lawyer-like analysis is put forth to "prove" to some else that what we think is great IS great.

I'm not criticizing or trying to reprove anyone in some hackhanded way because I do it to. We all do. But WHY?

Why is it so important to us that everyone else appreciate what we appreciate? We've all felt a bit of outrage when someone else dumps on what we love and it may even lead to some doubt about whether what we personally admire is as good as we thought.

It's not like food. You know. If I like sushi and someone else turns up their nose at it I don't lose any peace over that... go get your eat on over at the steakhouse, I say. But don't tread on my favorite composer or score. You'll be sorry.

I always wondered why some people love film music, but can't stand classical music of any sort.

I believe there is a simple solution to this problem. Don't hate the composers. Don't judge a future score from them just because you dislike their previous work. And, this is probably the kicker, don't buy every frickin score that is released! Buy what you like, and maybe you won't be such an ass when it comes to other film scores (not you, HAL, everyone in general). Like all the composers, as I try to do, but have your own opinion about each score. I doubt this will happen, but it's a suggestion and a response that hopefully answers HAL's question.

Mike

interesting question. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there aren't as many of us out there and that the usual reactions we encounter upon confessing that we love film music is one of distain and utter unbelieve and the usual " Film music. Who in the world would like that?". I mean, we get it from the pop-rock world and we get it often from the classical world.

Being a member of a group such as this then, may provide us with the false illusion that we have now entered a world full of critisim, a world where composers we honor are treasured with the same intensity, without any negative critisism whatsoever.

It is a difficult situation to then wake up and discover that some with the same love for film music dislike our or one of our favevorite composers. It is even more frustrating, perhaps, to see that many have a higher musical knowledge than we do. It may be even utterly discouraging to be ridiculed and belittled just because we love a certain score or like a certain composer without being really able to explain it. I have seen the latter happen over and over again here, and it really bothers me and I feel bad for the one on the shorter end of the stick.

I love John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith, and yes, perhaps I am not as objective about them as I should be. Yet, when I say I love a score, regardless from whom it is, you can bet your bottom dollar that's the truth. I don't mind if someone doesn't like what I like, hey, that's what makes the world go around (well okay, not really then). Anyway, if I am not too hot about a score or about a composer, I try to stay on the positive side and I hope I have proven here that I never, ever go the route of disrespect and bully, belittle or try to disgrace a person. That, in my view, is just plain wrong. Can't even say it's childish for a child wouldn't do that.

Sorry went on so long, but that is what I came up with.

On a second note I have experienced a tragedy lately that has shown me that as much as I love this board and film music, there are other situations and issues in life to get upset over than soemone acting like donkeys on a Saturday afternoon.

BTW, Hornerfan, I see you are into wrestling as well. Welcome to the even smaller crowd in a small crowd already. WWF, WCW, or ECW?
Scott

Zimmer was another that used to be inspired, but now every film he scores features 11 members of his cult writing "additional music". Zimmer has said enough, and now is just a machine. Same with Horner.

Anyway, back to wrestling.....

quote:

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Originally posted by Shaun Rutherford:
The majority of us who dislike the *****s at Media Ventures and James "Who's Jerry Goldsmith?" Horner are the ones who have "been around the bush" a little longer. I'm only 22, yes, but I've already gone through my "Horner phase". It is a phase, too. Listen to music written before 1985 and your phase will likely end. Mine did. Just need a little "culture", that's all.

Zimmer was another that used to be inspired, but now every film he scores features 11 members of his cult writing "additional music". Zimmer has said enough, and now is just a machine. Same with Horner.

Anyway, back to wrestling.....

Shaun

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Hey Shaun. In response to your comment right quick. Horner, for me, isn't a phase actually. I've liked him as long as I've liked film scores (7 years). I have listened to music prior to 1985, and I still like Horner. Guess that's just me.

As for Zimmer, I found THE THIN RED LINE to be very inspired, as was GLADIATOR (even with it's Holst riffs and PEACEMAKER orchestration). I eagerly await PEARL HARBOR...perhaps it might change your ideas about Zimmer?

Mike

PS: I thought wrestling didnt' start til 8 EDT...

You're already contradicting the point of this topic. Neither Horner nor Zimmer are merely phasic, and it is rude to presume that someone is going through a phase merely because they enjoy that particular music. I am older than you by a good 3 years, listening to film music most of my life, and I don't consider myself as having gone through any particular phase where film music is concerned.

Jerry Goldsmith once said something to the effect that it is possible to write music for film if you simply have the discipline to sit down and do it. Not to argue the point, but it is also rude and contradictory to claim that other film composers are merely "machines" wherin *every* composer is able and capable of sitting down and "imitating" themselves, just because they've been in the business for long enough to develop a self-discipline.

I've met some very angry folks around film music buffs message boards.

One cannot even write "ZIMMRE SUCKS" or "FUNFA-KING GO HOME!" without getting hundreds of hate messages and pathetic WARNING e-mails...

Example: The much loathed Titanic score. I know that nearly everyone dislikes this score and they all have their reasons, which for them I am sure are quite valid.

I however have been studying the Titanic for nearly 20 years, on and off. I have the congressional record of testimony, I have a three-foot model of the ship, I have deck plans laying around here somewhere and a book published in 1912 about the disaster. When I saw the movie, and saw that they got just about everything right. I was stunned. The music is part of that. No matter no amount of people telling me that it “Sucks” or “It’s Enya at Sea” will make me loathe this score.

I am not a composer or a music historian. I don’t have enough musical education to tell what exactly it is I like about a score. Sometimes doesn’t even have anything to do with the music. Sometimes it is what was going on when I heard it. Maybe I just had sex a few minutes before I heard a theme and put me in a good mood. Sometimes its because I have a three foot model of the Titanic on my fireplace. Who knows?

Why do we want to convince others to like what we like? It is because we want validation for our tastes. We want to know that we are not freaks because we like MV scores or Elfman scores. When people tell us how horrible a score or how mediocre a score is, it is like saying “If you like this, then you like mediocre or horrible music”. It is not what they are saying, but it is how we feel. We then proceed to explain that they are wrong often citing very erudite, arcane bits of film or musical lore to show how they were to say that. Hence the debate.

Bottom line, it is all a matter of personal taste. I am secure enough in my tastes that if Jerry Goldsmith drove up to my house and told me that he couldn’t believe that I had a hack like Zimmer in my collection I would simply say; “Oh, that’s nice. How about a nice cup of tea?”

PS. Actually, I would probably crap myself and then garb all my Goldsmith scores and go all fanboy on him.

And, what I meant to write regarding Zimmer's music is that it was MADE by machines.

Mike, have you noticed how much "Journey To The Line" sounds like Horner's Clear And Present Danger ("Operation Reciprocity", also heard in Apollo 13 and The Perfect Storm), just slower? Weird, eh? I like The Thin Red Line OK, but it's not what I'd call "inspired". It's just good if you're in the mood for drone. That wasn't an insult, really. Like JJ (sorry to drag you into this, chum), I'll take Zimmer's quiet stuff over his endless streams of button-pushing.

Shaun

NP---Mom And Dad Save The World (basis for Horner's Casper score)

well Hal2000,

I guess you got the answer, sort of.

Shaun believes that you are an uneducated, not long enough collecting butthead if you don't like who he likes or if you just don't hate Horner, etc.

Litmus Tester is just bored to death...

Andre Lux has met a lot of people like himself on the net...

MWRuger, liked the Titanic score (and so did I by the way)...

and it goes on and on. Perhaps it is all a bit about insecurity... I don't know.

Scott

I guess all the Horner-bashers (more eloquent that I) are tired of beating the dead horse.

Shaun

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:
Andre Lux has met a lot of people like himself on the net...
Scott

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LOL!!

And Scott are still looking for his lost tedy bear...

Andre Lux, the angry

Some quick stats about my collection:

Jerry Goldsmith scores:

>50

Williams:

15

James Horner:

1 (Apollo 13 Promo)

Media Ventures:

1 (Chicken Run)

and c)...though I am quite in favor of the freedom to express opinions, I have my reservations about those whose additions are limited to "Yawn" and "ZZZZ"--even if intended to some minor comic expression, the effectiveness of which is pathetically minimal.

quote:

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Originally posted by Shaun Rutherford:
Um, Scott, don't put words in mouth. I didn't say "butthead(edited 08 August 2000).]

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Shaun, you are absolutely right. I apologize.

quote:

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Originally posted by André Lux:
LOL!!

And Scott are still looking for his lost tedy bear...

Andre Lux, the angry

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Andre, you got some issues man.

Scott

I'm in your corner. Will you have me?

I am a commercial artist, and the quality of the work that I do is determined by numerous factors:

1.) How much time I am given to produce the work.
2.) How much I will be paid for the finished work.
3.) What the quality of my life happens to be during the production of the work:

A. Is my wife angry with me?
B. Is my child healthy?
C. Am I healthy?
D. Is my wife angry AND unhealthy?

I could go on, but I believe I've made the point that the quality of the work I do depends upon a healthy environment...
I've done some pretty pitiful work when circumstances were unfortunate, and believe me, I KNOW that I'm capable of far greater things!

We need to understand that film music composers are often subject to terrible circumstances in their work place. Too little time. Not enough money for the orchestra.
PLUS they may be dealing with any number of personal difficulties!

Is there some sense of validation that comes from knowing that , yea, this score is great because everyone else thinks so too?

Before there was such a thing as the home internet and filmscore periodicals and other appreciation networks I collected filmscores and just dug what I dug. That was enough for me. Those who have been collecting for some time may know what I'm talking about.

If Hollow Man or the Patriot came out at that period I would have just been happy with the fact that I was enjoying them for myself. Now I have to care what all you guys think of them, for better or for worse.

I know it's similar for most everyone here... we may say that it doesn't matter to us what value someone else puts on the music we individually enjoy but we really DO care.

quote:

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
[
Why do we want to convince others to like what we like? It is because we want validation for our tastes. We want to know that we are not freaks because we like MV scores or Elfman scores. When people tell us how horrible a score or how mediocre a score is, it is like saying “If you like this, then you like mediocre or horrible music”. It is not what they are saying, but it is how we feel. We then proceed to explain that they are wrong often citing very erudite, arcane bits of film or musical lore to show how they were to say that. Hence the debate.

Bottom line, it is all a matter of personal taste. I am secure enough in my tastes that if Jerry Goldsmith drove up to my house and told me that he couldn’t believe that I had a hack like Zimmer in my collection I would simply say; “Oh, that’s nice. How about a nice cup of tea?”

---

Actually MW, this is pretty darn good and approximates my feelings on the matter.

quote:

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Originally posted by litmus tester:
Go **** yourself...you self-important dweeb

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Hummmm... how can one ****** himself?

Plese, share your experiences with us master litmus, the punk with multiple names!

quote:

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Originally posted by André Lux:

One cannot even write "ZIMMRE SUCKS" or "FUNFA-KING GO HOME!" without getting hundreds of hate messages and pathetic WARNING e-mails...

---

As far as this topic goes...I listen to just about anything. Right now I've got Jazz music playing via Music Choice. I never bash different artists or genres of music.....unless its at circuit city where they play a certain station that plays the same damn songs over and over again. I tend to avoid the radio for just such a reason.

But anyways, over the years, I've learned not to take bashing personaly any more because no matter how much you argue or retaliate, it's almost impossible to change the mind of the basher. My theory is, bashing leads to bashing, which only leads to more bashing.

Besides, who cares what people think about a composer you like, or what kind of music you listen to. Music is music. You should be proud of what you enjoy without worrying about if people like it or not. And if they don't...screw `em. They aren't the ones shelling out $13 - $17 for a CD.

quote:

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Originally posted by HAL 2000:
Why can't we just enjoy what we like despite what someone else says?

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I've been silent on this topic until now, but I think I do have an answer to this question.
The answer is, because human beings are social creatures. We feel the desire to be accepted and praised by our peers, and we like to have our opinions and preferences validated and agreed with. Sometimes this results it attempting to get others to see your point of view, sometimes it results in arguments. In the end, it's part of the human search for acceptance.

Whoa... I got pretty philosophical there. Didn't know I had it in me.

NP: Secret Of NIMH, Jerry

quote:

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Originally posted by AaronR1074:
If you didn't say that then you won't get people all riled up. It's as if you go out of your way to bash somebody for writing something positive about a composer they like. I've been down this road with you before and have no desire to touch the topic again. We don't care if you like him or not...just stop being so harsh and talking down to people about it. People have different tastes in music, and nobody's taste is better than the others just because they like it more.

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Oh Aaron.... I was just being sarcastic, you know.
I may not like these composers but I will never justify it by saying "HE SUCKS".

I think that, quite simply, there is validation in numbers. What I mean is that this same dynamic occurs in politics, religion, and other areas....it certainly does in Art. All are passionate, largely-subjective stances/feelings/opinions. It is a measure of validation for that stance/feeling/opinion to be seconded: finding that you are not alone in liking the work of Poledouris, say (one of my Sacred Cows) not only reinforces your feelings about same, but the CORRECTNESS of that stance.

Hence, we spend a lot of time in rhetoric (some gentle, some vituperative). We are trying to gauge the correctness of our views by "swaying" others to our view. When that doesn't work, we can easily get demonstrative and aggressive - it is, after all, a passionate art form & hobby - often to the point of hating composers and/or those that support them.

I don't care for Horner at all; I have little use for Rabin; and the MV "factory" worries me, the economies of scale being what they are. But you are more than welcome to like them (and to be honest, I absolutely ADORE the MV "product" CHICKEN RUN - how can you not love kazoos in mytho-heroic scoring?). That alone does not consign you to Dweebie Hell, for me.

Using eleventy-two ridiculous false identities does.

BTW, I have tried valiantly to get my "loved" ones to share a little of my love of scores, but it, alas has failed.

"Oh NO! Not soundtrack Chat. Shut up! I would rather have history chat."