BUT

Goldsmith's "Arthur's Farewell" stands for so much more. The theme, the one that permeates ever pore of First Knight as a whole - it's incredibly liberating, spewing w/ emotion overflow. It's classic choral work, sure - but so is DOTF. Personally, Arthur's Farewell does more for me. It appeals to my character and my emotions.

I'm sure that is the same for other folks in regards to DOTF. I think it comes down to a issue of personal preference, not which one is better than the other. How in the heck can you pit Williams against Goldsmith, or vice versa? They both hold each other in a high regard and have an equally dedicated fan base.

Anyway... hope this offers something of interest to ya.

I hope noone thinks this is about who's better, Williams or Goldsmith or what the definitive choral cue for movies is. It's simply about what I said in the initial post. Duel or Arthur. I'm interested in what you all would choose if it came down to which of these two cues is more powerful. I stand by Arthur on those simple terms. Both are so obviously inspired of Orf that that is a non issue here.

Arthur expresses more righteous indignation and outrage to me and sustains that blazing anger throughout it's entire five minutes. Fates doesn't match it for sheer power.

But then again, we're getting into another preference issue.

Jeron

Both get kudos for working gloriously in the film with their scenes...Goldsmith here gets the edge though because his music is better developed from and interwoven with other musical material in the film.

"Duel of the Fates" certainly does overwhelm the listener, with its blistering rhythms and fine orchestration...but I too would conclude that "Arthur's Farewell" is a better cue of music. I think it has more compositional variation and a stronger (more powerful) thematic element--yet the thematic element is less obvious than "Duel's" "badaba-da-ba-dabadaba...."

Both are great, and I have actually been listening to "Duel" a lot more lately (I think it's closer to Williams' best stuff than "Arthur's Farewell" is to Goldsmith's)...and definitely Williams wins the cue name-game. Hands down, Williams in this context.

Lol.

Seriously, that was for Jeron, I know he hates comments like that. Anyway, I love both pieces, although I believe comparing the two is kinda out there, but for this post's sake, I'd prefer...you guessed it Fates. Now wether that is a preference thing towards John Williams or not, I'm not quite sure. If I had the choice to listen to one piece of the two for the rest of my life it would have to be Fates. Sure, I have listened to Arthur a lot more than Fates simply because the score is older, so in time this might change although I seriously doubt it.

Both pieces are religious in content, although, as everyone has admitted, Arthur seems to be more in the thematical contents of the film itself. Yet Fates brings an interesting twist to the whole story of the film. The overall tone of the piece is powerful and dangerous, yet also very mysterious. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be the leitmotiv of another character (in a different form of course) in the next pictures.

Anyway, to compare the two I'd have to go with Fates.

AF has much more complicated structure and emotional impact. Well, Dual of the Fates definitely has better performance and sound quality, which make it even more powerful, but the element and composition are just simple compared to AF. Besides, AF fits the fighting scene perfectly, I mean every frame, every move of actors is accompanied with just the right up-and-down music.

Lol

Don't know the other group, but I actually saw the BB on Saturday Night Live, and they weren't so bad. Decent bubblegum stuff -- to paraphrase Stephen King, "middle-of-the-road pop that no one's gonna remember in ten years." (Kudos to anyone who recognizes this quote. It was one of his characters, not King himself.)

I grew up on Aerosmith myself ...

NP: UNDER FIRE

Now to the topic! Once again, I am siding with Scott and Cole on this one. Williams is by far my favorite composer, but this has nothing to do with my opinion on the two cues. I think if we compared cues off of these two releases, we should compare Duel of Fates with No Surrender. They are more similar then Farewell and Duel.

Duel of Fates is an adrenaline pumping tune. It is a dark piece off to bat and the two themes in that are intertwined! First we have 3 basic things going on: The rhythmic figure(8th 8th, triplet); the main theme started in the bassoon and clarinet and then mostly followed by horns; then the sinister choral chords(I do consider this a motif/theme). So Williams does in fact intertwine themes throughout this cue!!

Farewell is a beautiful piece! When the music bursts in the climax(the arrival of the chorus), I always get the chills! It is a great piece of music, but it doesn't hit me as Duel of Fates does.

Like I said, if comparing these two scores(cues), we should compare No Surrender and Duel of Fates!

Later,
Aaron

I find it difficult to imagine that "Duel" would be much similar to its make-up without Jerry Goldsmith having paved the way with a very similarly conceived climactic cue.

Scott

On the official release, "No Surrender" is called "Arthur's Farewell." We are comparing those two cues. The track you seem to be thinking of is "Camelot Lives" on the official CD. (BTW, my sister would go absolutely crazy if I told her I knew someone who knew Justin...)

This is definitely a tough choice. I'll have to go with "Farwell." But I can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said already.

Duel of the Fates, (for me), never becomes tiring on the ear--it is dynamic, it is dramatic, and within the context of the film, enhances the action to a ultra-epic level.

As much as I love the Arthur legend (you've noticed, by now, apparently), as much as I love "First Knight", (and often find myself the only one in the room defending it), and as much love as I bear Jerry Goldsmith--I just have to get behind "Duel of the Fates" on this one. Jerry's chorus, while dramatic and powerful--becomes harsh after a while. It works, within the film, and that it ultimately its' purpose.

I never like to compare scores, really--each film, each score is a different experience, accompanying different images. Which is also why I have a hard time saying that one score is "better" than another...However, for my own personal listening enjoyment, I tend to find myself listening to "Duel of the Fates" repeatedly, rarely tiring of it.

I'm not near ditching my copy of "First Knight" any time soon, though.

(Just for the record, I know Duel isn't Latin, but it's in the same style.)

But other then that, even though I generally prefer Goldsmith scores, IMHO Williams' "Duel" is generally better than "Arthur's Farewell." As Rocco said, it's generally much more complex and stands better on its own.

But they're both great pieces.

It does seem to come down to personal preference. I'm still with Arthur on this one. I chose to compare these two pieces because they are one of the few examples of a similar scene being scored from a similar directive. What we have here is the Goldsmith take on a thing and a Williams take on a like thing. Sword skill vs sword skill, and a mythic context of good vs. evil, with a sense of angelic spectators looking on. But I should clarify that I'm talking simple musicality on this. Scene not withstanding.

And both N'Sync and Backstreet Boys suck.

Just listening to Arthur again, and to me it still is rather an example of general Jerry-action-scoring. Which makes it a really good piece of music, but I don't find it that outstanding. My favourite track from the album is the wonderful A New Life, by the way, which I included on a Goldsmith compilation I created for a friend a year ago (I also made a Williams compilation for him at the same time - both were for his birthday -, and I included Duel of the Fates from my then brand-new Phantom Menace CD on that one ).

Cole, On Silva Screen's Cinema Choral Classics 'Arthurs Farewell' is called 'Never Surrender'!.....does that maybe clear things up!!

From my memories of each cue, though, both are pretty cool! But no one is really trying to say otherwise.

By the way, I see that this is Big Dave's first post. Welcome aboard, sir. And I'd take CONAN THE BARBARIAN over either FIRST KNIGHT or THE PHANTOM MENACE any day. Sorry, you bunch of Johnny-Jerry partisans you (yeah, like I'm not one too), but CONAN is easily one of the VERY best scores of the 1980s. FIRST KNIGHT and TPM, as good as they both are, sound (to me) perfunctory by comparison.

NP: STAR TREK - TMP (expanded, but not the bootleg expanded) (yet)

there are NO Carmina Burana references that I can hear. just cus it's choral doesn't mean someone lifted it from Orff's bawdy piece.