There will be a Bruckner concert on March 27th. It should have the Te Deum, the Symphopny # 9 and the Christus Factus Est.

The Montreal Metropolitan Orchestra with chorus and soloists, Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting.

Pleasant tonality? Yes. Noisy dissonance? Some. Cute themes? Yes. Recurring motifs? Yes. Music for the sake of it? Please explain. Fast, epic and mighty? Fast: Depends on the conductor - the best interpretations are on the slow side. Epic and mighty: Definitely. Slow, reflexive and personal? Slow: Depends on the conductor. Reflexive and personal: Definitely. Lots of brass? Yes. Mainly strings? Yes. Orchestra and chorus do interact. The Te Deum is dominated by the chorus and soloists, but organ and orchestra still have a lot about them even though they're not the main attraction. Christus Factus Est is purely chorus (possibly with soloists) as far as I recall. The symphony is purely orchestral.

Consider this: Bruckner was EXTREMELY religious. Every of his works reflect that, but most of his works are also grand in their own right. He was an avid Wagner fan, and his sound and partly his orchestrations (though not his structures) show that.

The Te Deum is his praise for God. Therefore, it's of course very bombastic. But it also has very reflexive parts. For me, it's the most powerful choral work ever written.

The mottets (of which Christus Factus Est is one) are mostly reflexive. Very beautiful.

Symphony #9 was his last work. I think he worked ten years on it, and his greatest wish was to be able to finish it, but he didn't. The first three movements are complete, but the fourth exists only in fragments. There have been a couple of reconstructions, but many people believe the symphony (like Schubert's 8th) is "uncompletable" and should end after the Adagio. I see where they are coming from, but I still think that the reconstructions are worth to hear them. Bruckner's own wish was that the Te Deum (one of his favorites of his own works) should be played after the symphony if he couldn't finish the final movement - looks like your concert is one of the few where they're actually doing that.

Bruckner lived from 1824 to 1896, so you don't have to fear extreme atonalities. The 9th goes into very dissonant parts at some points though. Basically, it's (to me at least) the account of somebody who knows he's going to die soon. Bruckner always used to quote other works of his (or Wagner), but in the 9th it actually becomes biographical. A sorrowful melody from the first movement is called "Abschied vom Leben" (farewell to live). This first movement ranges from bombastic, desparate and shattering to touching and soft, with a spooky march sequence. The closing Adagio is considered to be one of the greatest and is about as long as the first movement (the Karajan recording that's lying in front of me right now has both of them lasting for about 25 minutes). Some parts of it sound quite like RVW's Tallis Fantasia. It's hard to describe, but at the ending (with a quote from the Te Deum), you really feel that Bruckner has died.

Some more general bits: Bruckner was one of the greatest organists of his time, long before he become famous as a composer (or even started composing - he wrote his first symphony at the age of 42). The Te Deum includes an organ, but it's orchestration and that of many of his symphonies (particularly those starting with the 6th) use the orchestra like one huge organ. Bruckner used to revise most of his works, many of them more than once, when audiences didn't understand them and dismissed him as a composer (and his affection for Wagner's music didn't help either). Sometimes these modifications included complete rewritings of whole movements. None of the works in your concert have ever been modified though, as far as I know. Obviously, Bruckner never heard a performance of the 9th - but he also never heard performances of several of his other symphonies. One of them (I forget if it was the 5th or 8th) premiered not too long before his death - but he was too ill to attend the concert.

Bruckner movements are always long, with slow (but "complete") developments and huge climaxes. Mahler was his scholar for some time (I think?), and I do hear Bruckner in several bits of his 2nd symphony. Goldsmith also seems to be a Bruckner fan - he once said that there are enough notes in Total Recall for a Bruckner symphony, and his "layering" techniques are reminiscent of Bruckner: Scores like Blue Max or Final Conflict have a strong structural resemblance to Bruckner works. Still, there are only a few occasions where Goldsmith actually SOUNDS likes Bruckner - The Monastery (from Final Conflict) and a very short bit from the ending of First Knight come to my mind.

Daniel Barenboim's cycle on Teldec with the Berliner Philharmoniker is also excellent.

Karajan is a little TOO weighty for me.
His 8th is just ponderous and draggy. (this is also the reason why -- for the life of me -- Otto Klemperer's verion of the 6th is seen as a classic interpretation....so DAMN slow).

I kinda like Solti, but his 4th mvmt of the 8th is so energetic it threatens to destroy the orchestral cohesion.

the best version of the 9th I've heard is an older recording with Bruno Walter and the Columbia Symphony Orchestra. the scherzo has a certain fury that no one else has quite achieved.

Karajan's 8th does drag a bit in the first two movements - the latter two are too fast. Celibidache does drag too much, he's simply boring in this case. The best I've heard is probably Wand's (the late 70s recording), but that one is just a BIT too fast for me.

Thank you!

Dinko, if you're asking ME about Bruckner, your only concern should be that I might not stop. Of course, I'll be horribly disappointed if you don't like the concert.

Thank you!

Dinko, if you're asking ME about Bruckner, your only concern should be that I might not stop.
Not stopping is good. As long as you say interesting stuff. It gets the audience interested.

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Originally posted by Dinko:
Not stopping is good. As long as you say interesting stuff. It gets the audience interested.

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Prepare for more soon, then.

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Then I won't tell I didn't like if I don't like it.

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I'd be even more disappointed if you didn't like it but told me you did.

When hearing the Te Deum, note how the music is neither major nor minor during the passages directly praising God.

Adding to JJH's comment that it's all about the Adagio: That's why Celibidache's recording of the 7th is so outstanding. I never cared much for that symphony until I heard his recording - which basically treats the whole symphony as one big adagio. Unfortunately, the Te Deum interpretation on the same CD is horribly (i.e. much too) slow. The best Te Deum recording I've heard is Eugen Jochum on Deutsche Grammophon (here). It's not perfect, but I have yet to hear a better one. Plus it also has all the Motetts. Best's (here) is also quite good, but has some strange passages.

Regarding the four recordings of the 9th I have:

• Berlin Philharmonic, Karajan (DG): Very good, perhaps a bit too "active" in a few places
  
• Royal Scottish National Orchestra, Tintner (Naxos): Really good, and very cheap
  
• Münchner Philharmoniker, Celibidache (EMI): Very good, but also very slow
  
• Bruckner Orchester Linz, Eichhorn (Camerata): Very good. The orchestral playing isn't quite as intense as the Berliner's or Münchner's, but this recording has a reconstruction of the final movement

A few general characteristics of Bruckner's works: Huge climaxes, long developments, "blocked" structures with pauses between them, bold unisono passages. The "Bruckner Rhythm" (sorry, can't describe it ). Extremely dense orchestrations - Bruckner either didn't realize that much of it can hardly be heard, or he simply didn't care. As a result, I've yet to hear a Bruckner performance or recording where you can really hear more then 50% of what he actually wrote (Celibidache was most concerned to get a transparent sound, but unfortunately he loathed recordings, so all we have are radio recordings of his live concerts, most of which don't have perfect sound). Many of his works were too demanding for orchestras at his time, which resulted in alterations by conductors and others. Bruckner also constantly changed and revised his own works because whenever somebody said something wasn't as it should be, he believed him.

The only movement in a Bruckner symphony to include harp and cymbals is the adagio of the 8th. Some other movements include cymbal crashes, but these weren't his original intentions but later revisions (e.g. the finale of the 4th).

Most important in Bruckner's works is the flow. Many "non-Bruckner conductors" try to spice his symphonies up by intensifying short bits, resulting in constant tempo changes which ruin the flow. Patience is very important when playing or listening to Bruckner.

I'll stop now.

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
I'll stop now.

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Or not. Forgot to mention something:

Despite his dense orchestrations, Bruckner seems to have quite a bit in common with minimalism. The arpeggios in many of his string accompaniments are very much like Philip Glass', just not as fast. That string figure at the beginning of Shore's Rivendell music is very remisicent of that, could have been written by Bruckner (with the difference that Bruckner would have used it only as an accompaniment bit).

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Originally posted by SCimmerian:
STANISLAW SKROWACZEWSKI

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Let's see...
Lots of "s" sounds.
A "cz" presence is detected.
"w"'s all over the place...

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Originally posted by SCimmerian:
Hey Marian, you want to hear the most spectacular recording of Bruckner 9th, then it just has to be STANISLAW SKROWACZEWSKI/MINNESOTA ORCHESTRA. Its on Reference Recordings RR-81.A HDCD recording of amazing power and a fantastic performance too!

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Bruckner HDCD? Wow, I must look for that one.

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Ever heard Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic on Teldec doing Bruckner? Any good?

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Never heard it, but I just stumbled across Gramophone's rave review yesterday. I don't entirely trust them when it comes to Bruckner (I find the Böhm recording of the 4th okay, but in no way special at all), but their comparison to Karajan and other comments make it sound like a really good recording. I'm very interested in another CD from the same series as well: The first symphony, because it also comes with Helgoland - I'd love to have a better-sounding version of that (Barenboim's earlier DG recording is fine, but not very clear sounding).

Performance was very good.
Conductor dude had nice rythms... yes the adagio was an adagio, not an allegro con fuoco...

But the music... well... too Mahlerian perhaps. Didn't like it too much. Didn't "dislike" it either. Just did not "like it".

There were cute themes and tunes to be followed throughout the symphony.
But it's not something I would like to listen to more than once. And I certainly wouldn't spend $$$ for a CD. On the other hand, taping it off the radio isn't a bad idea.
(speaking of radio, Bruckner's 3rd sym was broadcast on the radio a couple of weeks back and I liked that one much more than the 9th)

The Te Deum was nice. Soloists weren't too great, but it was mostly because they were buried under the orchestra (for some reason the soloists were at the back of the stage...)
Chorus took a minute or two to get into it. They were singing somewhat messily in the first few instances of the Te Deum, but they got their act together and sang the rest pretty well, albeit with some unclear pronunciations.

The concert opened with the Christus thing. Nice. But somewhat average.

Seriously: As I said above, #9 isn't the best introduction to Bruckner I guess. I always send people a copy of Karajan's #4 recording for that. The Mottets do seem average until you're really into Bruckner. Regarding the 3rd, the revised version is totally different from the original one, and in this case I vastly prefer the first version. The revision is much more edgy - and most "non-Bruckner conductors" make it even more edgy, resulting in a real mess.

My advise/wish : Don't give Bruckner up. When something by him is on the radio, listen to it - perhaps you'll like it more then.

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Originally posted by Dinko:
SC: Calm down, dude... it's just music.

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Originally posted by SCimmerian:
Hey Marian, you want to hear the most spectacular recording of Bruckner 9th, then it just has to be STANISLAW SKROWACZEWSKI/MINNESOTA ORCHESTRA.

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I didn't see this sooner or I certainly would have contributed. For me, there is no one like Bruckner, although Mahler comes the closest.

At this point, I'll just relate one comparison that I've heard: listening to a Bruckner symphony is (in many respects) like walking around a grand cathedral for 45 minutes.

Yesterday I attended a triumphant concert of Bruckner's 8th, performed by the stupendous Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester and conducted by Franz Welser-Möst - who, as I've said above, is the only one I've heard so far who can conduct Bruckner quick and fierce and still sound great. While I have yet to hear an 8th that completely satisfies my (like Celibidache's 7th does), this was right up there with the Wand and Karajan recordings. A triumph also because Welser-Möst had to come back to the stage at least 10 times, and the last time the audience's "Bravo"s were so loud, they rivalled the music itself in volume.

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
Yesterday I attended a triumphant concert of Bruckner's 8th

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Triumphant sounds more than "good".

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[...]and the last time the audience's "Bravo"s were so loud, they rivalled the music itself in volume.

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And the great thing about that for King Harry: Welser-Möst is about to become principal conductor of the Cleveland Orchestra!

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Originally posted by Dinko:
Didn't it already happen?

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At the website of the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester, they say:

Following in September 2002 Franz Welser-Möst takes over the position as music director of the Cleveland orchestra.

I should mention that the GMJO is a truly amazing orchestra. I think I've heard them for the first time yesterday, but what I heard could hardly be beat by orchestras like the VPO or the LSO. They clearly enjoyed themselves, and applauded W-M just as much as the audience.

Marian is right, Dohnanyi is leaving Cleveland at the end of this season (in May) and the new guy starts in the fall. My friend says that the musicians are generally very pleased with the selection and look forward to playing under him.

Finally, I must take issue with one thing that was said at the beginning of this thread: there are many words that one could use to describe Bruckner's music, but "cute" is not one of them.

Regarding the Cleveland Orchestra, I've never been overly fond of Szell, but I have wonderful recordings of Schumann's symphonies by them and Dohnanyi. I think they should do good Bruckner, too.

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Originally posted by Good King Harry:
listening to a Bruckner symphony is (in many respects) like walking around a grand cathedral for 45 minutes.

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45 minutes? That's a short Bruckner symphony.