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      Just Movies!
      Is the Western in limbo or dead?

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    Topic:   Is the Western in limbo or dead?

     logied
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    I can count on one hand how many westerns I,ve seen in many years. The one thing I can
    say, most were very good films. Dancing With
    Wolves, Unforgiven, even the Quick and the
    Dead was interesting. But who is going to
    make the next best Western and who is an
    up and coming star that could play a dust
    sucker.
    When Roy Rogers died last year a part of me went with him.
    I think Gladiator shows that period films can return even with an overhaul.

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    posted 06-12-2000 02:38 PM PT (US)     

     Captain Howdy
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    I don't know, I kind of consider Shanghai Noon a semi-western. But you're right, true westerns are basically dead. And they're not coming back.

    NP: On the Beach (Gordon) 4/5

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    posted 06-12-2000 02:40 PM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    We need more westerns than gross-out teen "comedies." QUIGLEY, DOWN UNDER was a great attempt, a perfect blend of all the elements that make a great western (I wish Tom Selleck would hurry up and make a sequel). Excellant score, too.

    I plan to make a western once I become a director, and I'm going to make it just as good and entertaining as the classic westerns of past (or try to, at least).

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    posted 06-12-2000 03:21 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    "The Death of the Western" has been announced every couple of years at least since the 1960s. But has it ever really died? Clint Eastwood kept up his end of the genre througout the 70s and 80s -- hits like OUTLAW JOSEY WALES, flops like PALE RIDER, and then that surprise Oscar winner UNFORGIVEN (Hey, why didn't they use the original script title for that one, THE CUT ***** KILLINGS. I kid you not, it was actually called that. Later they softened it to THE WILLIAM MUNNY KILLINGS; I don't know where UNFORGIVEN came from.)

    YOUNG GUNS and YOUNG GUNS II were hits, and inspired the TV series YOUNG RIDERS; there was a MAGNIFICENT SEVEN TV series, too, wasn't there? As well, there are any number of direct-to-video Westerns, and a couple of them are even good (THE SHOOTER, with Michael Dudikoff, is my recent favorite -- surprisingly well-written and, here's the real surprise, competently directed by Fred Olen Ray, of all people.) SHANGHAI NOON, mentioned above, is basically a Western (and seems to be a distinct paraphrase of the oddball 1972 picture RED SUN with Alain Delon and Toshiro Mifune, scored by Maurice Jarre.)

    The Western never went away. It's just that so few good ones get made, people sort of "blip" over the profusion of bad ones. In the same way, the surprise successes last year of BLAIR WITCH and SIXTH SENSE made people talk about the Horror Film as though it had died some recent death. It never went anywhere either.

    "Everything that's old is new again"? Not quite. It's all a question of how much PR the companies can afford. The truth is, everything that they call new is usually already pretty old.

    NP: BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES (FSM version) (talk about old! This is a damn great-sounding disc considering that the original tapes are thirty years old. I believe Rosenman's last Western score was THE LAST HARD MEN in 1976, which got thrown out and rescored with old Goldsmith cues from 100 RIFLES and STAGECOACH. Supposedly the cues in question were rerecorded -- not by Goldsmith -- but I've never seen the film nor heard its soundtrack, so who knows.)

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    posted 06-12-2000 08:21 PM PT (US)     

     Lou Goldberg
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    Logied--The Western used to pay for the whole film industry or so they said. Today people supposedly don't watch them yet TV runs 'em all week. As a genre dealing with the border of civilization, I think the Space film has taken over people's interests. Yet, every few years, a TV show like Brisco County Jr or Dr. Quinn, or a film like Posse or Run With The Devil will show up as directors who haven't made westerns want to give it a try. Kasdan tried twice with Silverado and Wyatt Earp and there have been others for whom the genre is not old hat. I'm sure someone will come along in the next few years to make another major Western--but just who and what is anyone's guess. Still, I highly doubt that the Western will return in the numbers and force of the past where every network had a Gunsmoke, Wagon Train, Rawhide or whatever and Westerns were common on movie screens. I just don't think the audience that goes to films now would go without a major star or special effects or controversy and most people think all Westerns are alike and can't tap new ground. That's my two cents. Individual Westerns may succeed but as a genre it's unlikely to become the staple it once was.

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    posted 06-12-2000 08:49 PM PT (US)     

     MWRuger
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    I don't think westerns are dead, I just think that seem dead. They only seem to get made now as an exception instead of a matter of course.

    It used to be you could count on 5 or 6 westerns a year. Now it is more like a western every couple of years.

    What resides in the Western's place? Teen Sex/Coming of Age pics. There are always about 5 or 6 a year (Probably more).

    One of the reason I think that this has happened is that the West has become so remote to most people that it might as well be Ancient Rome. If you ask the average film going when the "Cowboy" days were there is little chance that they will even get close.

    In addition there are no real stars that are closely identified with westerns left anymore. Except for Clint Eastwood, who's left who was a "Western" star?

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    posted 06-12-2000 08:50 PM PT (US)     

     JoeInSanDiego
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    Money. Westerns cost loads of money and rarely make back the initial investment (Tombstone notwithstanding). Teen sex/coming of age films are CHEAP. Any no-name teenager making union wages can become a STAR (Jason Biggs...need I say more). However, with a Western, it is a rule of thumb that only a bankable star can be counted on to open up this kind of film...and there goes the bottom line...right through the roof. Space films make their money back, just on the novelty of what new effects might come along. What new effects will work in a western? The WILD WILD WEST was just HOKEY...

    For a western to work, you need a GREAT story line...believable characters...and an actor who can pull it off.

    I hate to say it...but is there a story line that the westerns have NOT tackled yet? Are there characters that are sympathetic that aren't cliche? And, are there any actors out there who can pull it all off any more?

    No, I don't think the western is dead...I think it is just comatose...and needs something (or someone) interesting to spice it up, which happens every couple of years or so.

    BAD GIRLS had an interesting premise that got mucked up. Young Guns and its sequel were actually pretty decent films in my opinion for all the reasons I listed above. Didn't see Wyatt Earp...but LOVED Tombstone, Unforgiven and Silverado. Gimme a good western and I will show you filmmakers at the top of their game. They have to be.

    NP - Heaven Help Us (Horner) Appropriate, don't you think? hehehe

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    posted 06-13-2000 08:21 AM PT (US)     

     Marc Flake
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    How about "Briscoe County, The Movie"

    That whole Sphere thing needs to be wrapped up (bringing in the space-opera crowd).

    And then maybe we'd all get a chance to buy the score.

    Marc

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    posted 06-14-2000 02:33 PM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    The Orb (not sphere) thing was wrapped up. I know. I have every single episode on tape.

    I think if Wild Wild West had been a Brisco County movie, it might have done better. The would be something you'd expect to see in an episode of Brisco, not an episode of WWW.

    Anyway, if you like, I could tell you how the Orb/John Bly storyline was wrapped up.

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    posted 06-14-2000 02:50 PM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    Ah, heck! I'll tell it anyway.

    As it turned out, the Orb was from the future. There was originally three of them, and when combined, they could prove to be disasterous in the wrong hands. John Bly wanted them so that he could take over the world, but one Orb was launched into a time machine and sent back to the late 1880s. Bly followed, but had no idea where the Orb had ended up. It was eventually discovered that Bly could only be killed by a bullet made out of the same blue mineral the Orb rods were made out of, and only one bullet existed. It was hidden inside the handle of Brisco's father's gun (made for his dad by a character that James Hong played; can't recall the name). Brisco found out about it and used it on Bly. The bullet had a strange effect on Bly, and he was imprisoned inside the Orb, which was then sent back to the future. It was assumed that Bly would be dealt with, or trapped in the Orb forever.

    That storyline was actually never intended to play beyond the first season. It was decided early on it would only play through a certain number of episodes before being wrapped up, and the rest of the series continued with different stories. Too bad it didn't come back. Fox was actually predicting it would be the runaway hit, and that the show it was a lead-in for, The X-Files would tank in the first season. They were obviously wrong, and decided to axe Brisco in favor of concentrating on X-Files. Seven years later (God! Has it already been seven years since Brisco was on?), it's apparent they made the wrong decision. Oh, well. At least I have by videotapes!

    Hope this helps.

    [This message has been edited by dantoris (edited 14 June 2000).]

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    posted 06-14-2000 02:59 PM PT (US)     

     Marc Flake
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    Lacking the video tapes to keep my memory clear, seven years without Briscoe (don't have cable so I can't/couldn't watch it on TNT) has resulted in some fuzziness about the plot lines.

    The saddest thing for me is that I missed seeing the final episode (dantoris, I think you were the one who wrapped up that loose end for me -- thanks).

    This series had sooooo much potential, very fresh and witty in its writing. I didn't pay much attention to who its writers were. It would be interesting to see what they are up to these days.

    Probably sitting in producers' waiting rooms trying to get a new version of BRISCOE up and running.

    Marc
    np: Theme from Briscoe County (It's been seven years, but I can still play this theme in my head from start to finish).

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    posted 06-15-2000 07:19 AM PT (US)     

     dantoris
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    Well, I know quit a few episodes were written by the show's creators/executive producers, Carlton Cuse and Jeffrey Boam. Cuse is know an executive producer on Nash Bridges and the (thankfully) cancelled Martial Law. Boam wrote the screenplays for Innerspace, Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade, Lethal Weapon 2, 3, and the original unfilmed (and much better) script for Lethal Weapon. He passed away earlier this year from cancer I believe. A talented screenwriter. He has a cameo in the opening party scene of Innerspace. He's the guy whose every response to Meg Ryan's questions are, "That's classified," or "You know I can't tell you that."

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    posted 06-15-2000 05:05 PM PT (US)     
     

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