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      NBC's JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS: Is anybody else fed up with these Hallmark TV movies? (Page 1)

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    Topic:   NBC's JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS: Is anybody else fed up with these Hallmark TV movies?

     Chris Kinsinger
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    From Alice In Wonderland to Noah's Ark, there seems to be a new one nearly every week. The father & son team of the Halmis continue to parade these CGI-laden productions past the networks and into the video stores.
    I haven't really liked any of them so far.
    The CGI effects are so slick and void of any real character or imagination, the musical scores are so homogenized, the productions are so padded to fill multiple hours, that these TV movies have been mostly boring to me. Tonight's Jason And The Argonauts is no different.
    Any dissenting opinions?

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    posted 05-07-2000 07:28 PM PT (US)     

     Chase&August
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    I'll stick with the original ARGONAUTS. I, too, am sick of these "specials." ALICE AND WONDERLAND was more like ALICE IN LSD-LAND. Only Martin Short as The Mad Hatter was worth watching. I'm so glad NBC didn't make the JOAN OF ARC mini-series. CBS did a much better job with it.

    Chase

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    posted 05-07-2000 07:31 PM PT (US)     

     Mark Olivarez
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    Chris I totally agree with you. 40 mins into it I said to hell with this and put on Herrmann's JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS (Broughton's re-recording). I'm almost tempted to put my Criterion Laserdisc version of JASON in. Give me Harryhausen's films any day. God help us for what lies ahead with these ridiculous TV movies.

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    posted 05-07-2000 07:34 PM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    Next they'll probably do Sinbad...
    I was surprised that the credits to Jason And The Argonauts don't even mention anything at all about the original film. Wouldn't they have had to at least buy the title from Columbia Pictures?

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    posted 05-07-2000 07:42 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    CHRIS KINSINGER MET RAY HARRYHAUSEN
    (sorry ol'pal I'm still jealous )

    Chris, I haven't seen the 'NEW' Jason, But I just know You gotta be Right!!

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    posted 05-08-2000 01:36 AM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    Hey Timmer!
    Don't you & Ray both live in England?
    Heck! You can probably walk to his house anytime you want!
    The latest issue of Cinefex magazine has a lengthy interview with Ray, conducted by Phil Tippett. It includes a photo of the two of them which was taken during the interview, as well as a photo of the two of them from 30 years ago, when Phil was a mere child-fan.
    If I could, I would scan my photo of Ray & me shaking hands, and put it on this page, but I think that feature has been shut off.

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    posted 05-08-2000 12:53 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    I think I understand why Administrator K shut that one off, but I kind of wish he hadn't. Although I never figured out how to do it myself. (Pick up the manual, figure out the scanner, you've only had it for six months now ...)

    I haven't seen most of the Halmis' work. I saw a little of the one with Armand Assante, a Greek God epic, wasn't it, a few years back, and that was a horror. I couldn't believe that the great Russian director Andrei Konchalovsky was reduced to making this slop. NOAH'S ARK, too, was an absolute atrocity, although vaguely fascinating in its perveristy. On the other hand, though I never saw it, my father really liked their version of ALICE IN WONDERLAND. Did catch the TV spots for it, and thought Whoopi Goldberg as the Cheshire Cat was rather inspired casting.

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    posted 05-08-2000 01:02 PM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    Hah, I turned on "Gepetto" and turned it off maybe 2 minutes later. Yeeesh.

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    posted 05-08-2000 01:44 PM PT (US)     

     John C Winfrey
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    Hallmark Hall of Fame did some great stuff over the years. Some of these recent ones are crummy to say the least. Yes, I am one who thinks they deserve a solid F. I watched one min of Jason and said-Lousy. John.

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    posted 05-08-2000 03:22 PM PT (US)     

     SBD
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    Did anyone here see THE 10TH KINGDOM? It was okay, but disastrously (sp?) overlong (FIVE 2-hour parts?). In terms of casting, it was interesting: Rutger Hauer as the Huntsman, Ed O'Neill as the Troll King, and (if you didn't see it, you'll LOVE this) Dianne Wiest (!) as the Wicked Queen. Why Wiest? If you've ever seen her in any other films, you'd know that her characters are about as evil as tapioca pudding, though she did come across as fairly menacing here.

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    posted 05-08-2000 04:08 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    Chris,
    Walk to his house??,England ain't THAT small!

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    posted 05-08-2000 05:32 PM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    H Rocco: (Pick up the manual, figure out the scanner, you've only had it for six months now ...). I'd be willing to bet that you don't even need to read a manual. My wife taught me how to use my scanner just by exploring and experimenting with the features. In fact, my scanner didn't even come with a manual, it's so user-friendly. Why don't you experiment a bit?
    Your comment on Noah's Ark, "although vaguely fascinating in its perveristy" is right on-target. The "writers" of this mess must have had a real good time twisting Scripture. I loved the part where Noah & his wife are present at the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, and afterwards she says, "Years from now, when this is all written down, they'll probably say we weren't even here!" I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I laughed.
    Howard: You did the right thing. Gepetto was probably OK for little tykes, but pretty awful for adults.
    Mr. Winfrey: Hallmark Productions is the company headed by Robert Halmi Sr, & Robert Halmi Jr, and not to be confused with the "Hallmark Hall Of Fame", which actually produces some fine TV.

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    posted 05-08-2000 05:36 PM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    Timmer, if he lived in Ohio, I'd visit him tomorrow!
    Go on...get yourself over there and shake his hand! The man's in his 80's, and he ain't gonna be around forever! He's known to be very receptive to his many fans, and always seems to be delighted to meet them.

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    posted 05-08-2000 05:40 PM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    Tell him I sent ya'!



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    posted 05-08-2000 05:41 PM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    And say hello to my sister who lives in the Watford area. Just stay away from my niece.

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    posted 05-08-2000 05:48 PM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    ...if you know what's good for ya!

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    posted 05-08-2000 05:50 PM PT (US)     

     Timmer
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    ...Where DOES He live Chris?

    Sound advise HL, My girl Melanie don't put up with no messing either .....I would be on My best behavior.....Honest

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    posted 05-08-2000 06:41 PM PT (US)     

     J. Peter Wolk-Laniewski
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    I remember when the Halmis were just getting started, I thought it was cool that someone was doing full adaptations of literary classics. Maybe it could inspire kids to READ A BOOK for heaven's sake. Then these movies just started popping up every week! I saw a bit of Arabian Nights and I have to give them credit for doing the whole thing instead of just, say, Aladdin. The backstory of Scheherazade is interesting, and puts the other stories in context.

    It seems to me that their just losing control. There are too many films at once with pressure to make each more visually stunning than the last. The Halmis could probably do better work if they just relaxed a bit.

    BTW. If you want to know the morbidly ironic lost ending to the story of Jason, read Medea by Euripides.

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    posted 05-08-2000 06:50 PM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    ...Didn't Medea kill Jason and eat their children? Or something equally horrible?

    Timmer...I'll dig around and see if I can find out where Ray lives.
    Wouldn't it be so cool if he wound up being your NEIGHBOR?


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    posted 05-08-2000 07:55 PM PT (US)     

     MWRuger
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    Chris, To answer your earlier question about licensing Jason and the Argonauts, they don't have to because it is public domain, being based on greek myth.

    Now if they tried to a shot for shot remake or just shot the exact seem script they they would have to get the rights!

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    posted 05-08-2000 08:34 PM PT (US)     

     James
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    You're right about Medea, Chris. After the Argonaut story ends, Jason and Medea have their kids, then Jason leaves and finds some younger princess to gain more power, Medea gets severely PO'ed, kills the kids, and then rides of into the sky in a dark chariot pulled by demons.

    As to the Hallmark movies, there are the good ones and the bad ones. I did not see this new Jason, nor did I care to. I did enjoy MERLIN, and I liked parts of ALICE (plus I'll watch anything with Tina Majorino and love it, no matter how bad it actually is). The loved the version of ANIMAL FARM on TNT. But I'd have to agree that they are making way too many way too fast. Slow down a bit, people.

    James
    NP - Kama Sutra (Mychael Danna)

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    posted 05-08-2000 08:35 PM PT (US)     

     James
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    P.S. I think NOAH'S ARK was unbelievably bad.

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    posted 05-08-2000 08:36 PM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    James, I couldn't take the first part of Noah's Ark, so I skipped Part Two. Later, my father (in hysterics!) told me that Lot showed up on a raft to do battle with Noah on his ark...

    There were certain parts of Alice In Wonderland that I enjoyed. Martin Short as The Mad Hatter was inspired, and the sequence with Gene Wilder as the Mock Turtle was also quite good. That's what I find so disturbing about these Halmi productions...they feature a few wonderful moments, couched in FOUR HOURS of film!

    Mr. Ruger, I understand that the story of Jason, being a Greek myth, is in the public domain, BUT...when Columbia Pictures made the original Jason And The Argonauts, they copyrighted that title, didn't they?
    The working title was Jason And The Golden Fleece, which they changed just prior to release. They own that property...not the myth itself, but that title. Certainly the Halmis had to purchase that from Columbia. I expected to see at least a mention of it in the credits.

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    posted 05-08-2000 09:16 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Columbia might have let the copyrighted title slip. Either that, or the Halmis simply bought it. Since the story is public domain, Columbia could only own the title, and since the story is nominally based on the legend, rather than the Columbia picture, the studio couldn't really demand any kind of credit, other than perhaps a "Thanks to Columbia Pictures" that would have been buried in the back ... and what do they care, really, as long as they got their check.

    I saw a bit of ARABIAN NIGHTS and was rather favorably impressed, it seemed to be more serious in tone than some of the others.

    Re: NOAH'S ARK: I thought it was kind of cute that Jon Voight also played the voice of God. He seemed to be more amused by the absurdity of the whole thing than the other actors, who merely seemed to be in pain.

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    posted 05-09-2000 01:06 PM PT (US)     

     SBD
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    Chris and Howard - I don't think that GEPETTO was a Hallmark production.

    H - I heard John Lithgow was the voice of God in NOAH'S ARK.

    NP - The Phantom ("The Tomb")

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    posted 05-10-2000 06:08 AM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    SBD, I think Howard is aware that Gepetto is a Disney production...in fact it's actually called Disney's Gepetto.
    He just threw it in as another example of a TV movie that he didn't like.
    Right, Howard?

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    posted 05-10-2000 07:18 AM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    Yup.

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    posted 05-10-2000 09:23 AM PT (US)     

     JJH
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    anyone remember The Odyssey on NBC a couple years ago, with Armand Asante among others?

    had to turn it off because the MUSIC was horrendous! It's not often a score is so bad that I can't stand to watch a show, but GEEZ!



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    posted 05-10-2000 05:58 PM PT (US)     

     MWRuger
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    Weren't Merlin and Moby Dick also Hallmark productions? I thought those were pretty good.

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    posted 05-11-2000 11:11 AM PT (US)     

     Chris Kinsinger
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    Merlin was a Hallmark Production, but I believe Moby Dick was produced by Ted Turner. I'm not absolutely certain, though.
    I just saw a commercial on TV for a hair dryer, and it featured a CGI dragon that was more convincing than the one in Jason And The Argonauts!

    [This message has been edited by Chris Kinsinger (edited 11 May 2000).]

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    posted 05-11-2000 01:50 PM PT (US)     

     John C Winfrey
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    The Noah's Ark film was ridiculously stupid. Totally full of bull. Best, John.

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    posted 05-11-2000 07:10 PM PT (US)     

     Bel366
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    MOBY DICK was produced by Hallmark for the USA Network, of all people. Here's another vote for MERLIN, which was really good with a terrific score by Trevor Jones.

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    posted 05-12-2000 08:57 AM PT (US)     

     John Maher
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    I am NOT fed up with these productions, as I haven't seen a single one. I've yet to see a trailer for one of these things that looks interesting. Perhaps I'm missing the greatest television, ever; but somehow I doubt it.

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    posted 05-12-2000 10:33 AM PT (US)     

     Rang
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    Hallmark's JASON (the first Hallmark TV film I've seen) started out promising, but painfully spiraled minute by minute into an abominable abyss. I was primarily interested in this one because I've never cared for the languid '63 JASON, besides Herrmann's score, Harryhausen's visual showpieces, and that it achieved a fantasy level of believability, something sorely missing from Hallmark's version. While I wouldn't recommend either, at least there are some substantial qualities in the '63 JASON that you can enjoy.

    However, I did like Simon Boswell's Herrmannesque score, which I'm hoping receives a release. One theme in particular reminded me of Boswell's fine score to THE WAR ZONE.

    [This message has been edited by Rang (edited 12 May 2000).]

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    posted 05-12-2000 02:09 PM PT (US)     

     Boris
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    I understand that stop-motion animation is probably a thing of the past because it is an imperfect technique that requires tons of time and incredible talent, none of which anyone in the film industry is willing to pay for.
    But, WHY?
    It is a purely cinematic art form...why isn't it championed for that reason alone?
    Stop-motion animation should be treasured; cherished for its very uniqueness. It never existed prior to the 20th Century, and it may never exist again.
    That is very sad.
    Computer art and visuals are wonderful, but they are a totally different medium, and will prosper even more with time.
    Why should stop-motion animation die?
    It shouldn't.
    A man of incomparable talent like Ray Harryhausen should be passing the mantle on to the next generation, not burying it.

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    posted 05-16-2000 07:55 PM PT (US)     

     Andre Lux
    unregistered  


    "Moby Dick" is ok untill the whale shows up. The CGI efx were REALY embarrasing and ruined it all. The score's a gem on CD, but you can barely notice it on film.

    I saw "Merlin" too and found it incredible shallow and boring, even with the great cast and an average Trevor Jones' score.

    [This message has been edited by Andre Lux (edited 20 May 2000).]

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    posted 05-20-2000 03:58 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    Boris, there are a few people left preserving some of these crafts -- Rick Baker, Phil Tippett, Henry Selick, Jim Danforth, Shinji Higuchi. We lost David Allen recently, though, which is unfathomably depressing. He managed to do outstanding stop-motion on a low budget -- just look at DOCTOR MORDRID. (Or don't, the movie sucks except for Allen's showstopper, the battle between two dinosaur skeletons in the middle of a museum. It's amazing how great it looks and how simply he did it.) I'd hoped to work with him someday.

    NP: just started BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES (FSM release, just came in the mail today -- could've paid forty bucks for the Score LP fifteen years ago, but I decided "I think I'll wait." It was a longer wait than I anticipated, but worth it! The OST AND the score album all in one package. Ah, the miracle of the compact disc.)

    [This message has been edited by H Rocco (edited 20 May 2000).]

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    posted 05-20-2000 10:28 PM PT (US)     

     Boris
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    Rick Baker does stop-motion animation???

    NAAAAAH!

    Rocco, I love Selick's work, but it's simply an updated version of those old "Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" shows...I'm referring specifically to stop-motion utilized in a real-life setting. Tippett worked as a consultant on the "Jurassic Park" films, and his input helped tremendously...but what's he doing with stop-motion?
    What's Danforth done since aiding Harryhausen on "Clash Of The Titans"?

    Tell me about Shinji Higuchi...

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    posted 05-21-2000 09:44 PM PT (US)     

     H Rocco
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    I was purposely, if probably mistakenly, vague about WHAT these fellows did -- I was referring to crafts other than stop-motion. Baker and Higuchi specialize in what is called "SUITmation" -- guys in suits playing monsters -- the legendary "Maninasuitasaurus" kind of critter (I think it was Danforth who coined that term -- not sure.)

    Recently I was defending RODAN's special effects at another thread -- pointing out that however unrealistic Japanese SFX may appear at times, it is frequently a DELIBERATE look. Shinji Higuchi is the most prominent and accomplished of the younger SFX guys who apply suitmation -- I've met him a couple of times, and he's absolutely proud to be continuing the tradition, even though computer graphics are increasingly gaining a toehold even in the impoverished Japanese industry. Higuchi has made the most of those a couple of times, too -- there are wonderful CGI shots several times in his most recent GAMERA 3 (1999). But he prefers to use it as decoration rather than the Main Event.

    Baker is STILL using suitmation -- witness parts of MIGHTY JOE YOUNG, which comprise a seamless blend of suitmation and mechanics (they really DID build a massive Joe robot for some shots -- one which puts the forty-foot Glen Armstrong monstrosity from the KING KONG remake to shame). Baker actually cinched the MIGHTY JOE YOUNG assignment by hiring a dwarf to inhabit what he believes is his best gorilla suit to date (I won't argue). He built it, tucked the actor inside, and brought it to the producers, holding a remote-control device and pretending he was controlling what the "robot" did! Once they were sufficiently awed, he gave up the secret, the whole point of his show being: "This is how good suitmation can be."

    (sigh) Boris, I guess I can't really say that stop-motion isn't dying, but the field is more complicated than you might think. Yes, the Harryhausen "look" is pretty well gone -- it's part of the reality of the business, I guess. CGI is somewhat less time-consuming and, as a consequence, increasingly cheaper (if the Japanese can have good CGI effects by now, then you can bet it's getting cheaper). The nature of stop-motion has been evolving for decades anyway -- witness the primitive ancestor of CGI, "go-motion," which beautifully animated Vermithrax in DRAGONSLAYER. A similar process was used for the demon dogs in GHOSTBUSTERS.

    Henry Selick is probably the last of the traditionalists, and I wouldn't write off his doing something Harryhausenlike somewhere down the line. We should be grateful we at least have HIM. There sure won't be any more Rankin/Bass specials as we knew them. I question his instincts, however -- I loved NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS, but JAMES AND THE GIANT PEACH mostly left me cold, not least because I thought it a mistaken interpretation of one of my favorite books from childhood.

    Oh yes, besides Shinji Higuchi, there's a new Japanese fellow who seems promising, name forgotten for now, who directed the SFX for the upcoming GODZILLA 2000 (this will actually play in theaters this summer! Amazing.) I am so happy to see SFX director Koichi Kawakita off the Godzilla series, I can hardly tell you. I don't merely dislike him personally, I'm disappointed in him as an artist JUST as much as I am in him as a human being.

    (heh, personal politics creeping in ... )

    NP: BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES

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    posted 05-21-2000 10:11 PM PT (US)     

     Swashbuckler
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    You know, it's interesting. A few years ago, before the CGI revolution, I remember reading in a book that the so- called "imperfections" in a stop motion effects, the jerky movements and the presence of fingerprints and handprints on the figures themselves, was actually one of the most ENDEARING aspects of the system. It was tantamount to a painter "defacing" his work by signing it.

    CGI, while it has produced some impressive images, is a relatively soulless procedure. Because of the fact that you CAN show everything, people DO, and that's not neccesarily the best way to make a film. Let's not forget the completely pointless remake of "The Haunting" from last year, filled to the brim with unneccesary CGI graphics (the original film had NO effects and was much, much more terrifying than anything I have seen in recent years, with the possible exception of "The Sixth Sense").

    ...and let's face it. When somebody did an effective stop-motion sequence, it was an impressive achievement. Fighting skeletons was an amazing image when Ray Harryhausen was doing it. It loses some of it's fun when it's CGI in "The Mummy."

    It's all part of the "slick-ization" of Hollywood. It's the effect that throws the camera all around and into people's faces in "Armageddon," makes the fight sequences in "Gladiator" incomprehensible and makes the sound effects in all of these films so loud they drown out any rational thought much less any dialogue or music.

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    posted 05-26-2000 03:00 PM PT (US)     
     

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