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Originally posted by rkeaveney:
Sean you are over-hyping DARK KNIGHT. The score horde will be looking for someone to punish once they've heard it. That will be you!

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"BRING IT!" HAHA! Anyway, I like it, but that's just me.

Agree, Craig Armstrong's Hulk is by far the better superhero candidate this year.

Dark Knight is overhyped.....

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Originally posted by Foobsie:
Sound wobbles from right to left speaker... muffled...

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You and GK can always continue to try and disarm what I type.

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I knew you were going to say that as soon as I read the first post. Since I'm pretty sure you don't care what I have to say about Dark Knight, let me justify the mentioning of my name in this thread by sharing my thoughts about the score with those who *are* interested.

First of all, I find it continuously harder to type intelligent thoughts about recent Zimmer/ RC scores, and find it exceedingly hard to stay polite and not break out in harsh comments.
To say I didn't enjoy Batman Begins would be an understetement. Did I hate it? No, I just found it damn frustrating. To constantly see how brilliantly Batman was resurrected, and to witness how Zimmer and Howard didn't live up to it; mentioning every missed opportunity would take hours.

The point is not that Batman can't have different sounds and ideas than Elfman's or Goldenthal's had, the point is that Zimmer and Howard didn't even bother escaping their box - they just said Batman needs a different sound and sold their own old baggage as exactly that.
Why do I bring up Batman Begins? Because Dark Knight is pretty much the same, minus the ambient noise.
I take it from the ongoing gushing on several sites that "Like A Dog Chasing Cars" seems to showcase the Batman theme both Zimmer and Howard supposedly wrote. I'm listening to it right now, I hear what they mean, and yet, where's the excitement?
Zimmer's restricted musical language is put on display in a most brutal way in this theme. It's simply too symmetrical, too "kind", to develop any kind of identity. The "identity" solely comes from the typical RC sound, and that's completely different from establishing a sound for Batman.

Another point is that Zimmer apparently can't come up with poignant material, material that says everything in one short snipper of a theme. He just doesn't have control over any kind of higher musical language to achieve that. His suites ramble on forever without making any point, or any point beyond the obvious one.
Even though the themes of the two films are instantly recognisable, they are blank and non-descriptive. You could play Joker's music easily in another action thriller, it just doesn't connect.

Great themes of capable composers always have a build-up, and then a musical highlight, a moment of "YES", where you "get it". Batman Begins and Dark Knight (and I would say Zimmer in general) don't have that. No build- up, no zing, all loud and in-your-face bombast, no meaning at all, not even a moment where you could stop and *think* about a meaning.
The two note motif for Batman is recognisable, but doesn't say anything. The Joker "note" is identifiable but says nothing. Harvey Two-Face I'm not sure whether he has a firm thematic identity at all, and the first couple of minutes of his suite are so bland that it terrifies me to think it was written by same guy who wrote Lady In The Water and The Village. Howard's Bruce and Rachel theme from Batman Begins is a delight compared to this.
Rarely have I heard a score that has so much innovation in sound (I mean the Joker suite), that has identifiable motifs, and at the same time achieves and says so little about anything than Dark Knight.

Dark Knight just trips over the same thing almost every Zimmer score trips: dozens of ideas in Zimmer's mind, but too much of a fantastically limited musical vcabulary to express them.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
And unless I see JNH's signature on a contract, I believe he just came over to Zimmer's studio once to deliver his Two-Face suite.

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I'm sure that GSA wouldn't have put it on their website if there wasn't a signed contract.

But just in case that's not enough proof for you (and I'm sure that everyone involved with the film is worried enough to make sure that YOU are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt) then by all means, call up the Gorfaine-Schwartz Agency.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Are you helplessly humor-challenged?

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Always.

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It was a sarcastic comment on how little Howard there seems to be on album!

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Uh huh.

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Do you have something constructive to add?

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Sure. I feel that criticizing an album and score like THE DARK KNIGHT without hearing the music in the context of the film is an exercise in futility. You can certainly comment on how the music functions as stand-alone music, and all that, but you can't apply MEANING to it without the context for which it was composed. As for who-did-what, did you ever consider that maybe JNH was composing music on this film in a style that you tend to associate more with HZ than with JNH's other works?

Telling me to watch the movie first is an empty try at devaluing my points. You'd have a point with most other movies, but given that Dark Knight doesn't differ much from Batman Begins in tone as well as style, and given that the same guy who did Batman Begins also directed Dark Knight, and also given that Dark Knight looks like Batman Begins, it's foreseeable how it will play in the film.

And if Dark Knight was really that different from Batman Begins, you can say right now that Zimmer and Howard failed at producing something different, since TDK and BB are pretty much the same in tone and style.

And why would you hire Howard when he assimilates to Zimmer anyway? Why doesn't Zimmer assimilate to Howard for a change? Simple answer, he can't.
Or he did, and "Harvey Two-Face" is a failed attempt at emulating Howard, it sure feels like that.

By the way, when a score is great or good in any way, I can imagine a sharp image while listening to it, without having seen the film.
When I hear "Batman" and listen to ELfman's score, I can imagine Burton's vision of the character without having seen it.
While listening to Dark Knight or Batman Begins, I can't imagine anything without the film. And even after seeing the film it's hard to see how it fits.

It's like saying that Elfman's score for BATMAN RETURNS doesn't work because you didn't think BATMAN worked, and gosh, it's the same filmmaker. (As an example.)

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
You don't make an effort to get the point, do you.

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At least I am trying to make one, and don't instantly fall back to hollow phrases like "you don't like it and that's fine".

Honestly, how can you listen to Dark Knight and say it's different from Batman Begins with keeping a straight face?

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Honestly, how can you listen to Dark Knight and say it's different from Batman Begins with keeping a straight face?

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But I never said or claimed that.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Well, you said you disagreed with me - it's in the subtext.

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Where did I say that?? What I said was that "I feel that criticizing an album and score like THE DARK KNIGHT without hearing the music in the context of the film is an exercise in futility."

That's hardly saying that your opinion was wrong, or that it was different from BATMAN BEGINS....

I agree with Dan about all this.

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Talking with Michael, now, there's an intelligent person who knows how to criticize Zimmer and give him points, too, for when he composes something decent; that's balance.

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"Michael" as in me, or as in McLennan??

Regardless, I have to agree with Sean and Dan here G.K. Now it's you going over-the-top. I rarely say this, but the truth is that we're talking about film music... first and foremost meant to service the film it's written for. If it happens to be a great listen on its own, that's really a boon. There are plenty of scores that work wonders in their films that I have no interest in owning.

That said, I see clearly that you don't think their music works either on album or onscreen, and - as Dan said - that's your prerogative. That doesn't make it fact. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I am no fan of MV/Remote Control and its "sound", but I personally like the duo's approach to scoring these films. I really believe that big heroic thematic identities would seem out-of-place and lower the gravity of this trilogy.

I'm sorry you don't care for it. Enjoy everything else about this sure-to-be-magnificent sequel.

Edit: I forgot to add: I don't care for the first score as a standalone listen much either, and I don't plan on purchasing The Dark Knight (unless I find it mindblowingly awesome when I see the movie on the 19th... which I'm quite sure won't be the case ).

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
To use your own words: whatever.

You don't seem like a guy I want to talk to regularly anyway.

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Originally posted by NeoVoyager:
"Michael" as in me, or as in McLennan??

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As in Kanga... But you, I'm sure, are just as articulate.

Okay, so Mr. Goldwasser has a point, don't talk about a score before having seen the film - so what? Putting aside for a moment that people discuss scores apart from the film all the time, it's not like I didn't bring up any other points that have nothing to do with the film; and anyway, since Hans Zimmer is a composer that seems to think about the music as a standalone work as well, it should be allowed to judge the music on its own.

[QUOTE]However, Batman Begins did not offer some of the great themes that were composed. From the sound clips I have listened to it sounds as if We will have most of the themes from the first movie as well as new material.[QUOTE]

Please, anyone who has access to the full album, tell me where this new material - and by material I mean thematic material - can be found, the Joker "theme" not taken into account.

And I *have* heard the ENTIRE album.
I really don't know whether sean burned himself into people's heads so hard, but I wouldn't write any final comments without having heard the full disc.

PS: It's funny you should mention my being pre-disposed, but you don't mention that Mr. Goldwasser is a more obvious canditate for this, running a site that interviews Mr. Zimmer.

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
Perhaps so, but I've had numerous conversations with Dan outside of these message boards and I can attest that he's an honest and down-to-Earth guy.

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Oh, and read the interview on Dan's site will you, because your own comments read like you have no idea what you're writing about with regard to those two composers and their collaborative process.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
PS: It's funny you should mention my being pre-disposed, but you don't mention that Mr. Goldwasser is a more obvious canditate for this, running a site that interviews Mr. Zimmer.

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Wait, pre-disposed to what exactly? Pre-disposed to defending composers against uninformed comments about their process? Pre-disposed to lamenting that people bitch about scores that they got illegally and haven't heard in the context of the film? Pre-disposed to being annoyed when people can't realize that a score can work wonderfully in the film and be crap on an album? (Note that I'm NOT saying YOU said all of these things, GK, so don't get your panties in a bunch just yet.)

And just because I am involved with a website that posted an interview by Mike Brennan with Hans Zimmer & JNH, suddenly I have to put disclaimers before my comments because you think I'm pre-disposed to... something?

At least, be credible and say that it's because I run Hans' MySpace page, or something that makes more sense.

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Originally posted by sean:
Oh, and read the interview on Dan's site will you, because your own comments read like you have no idea what you're writing about with regard to those two composers and their collaborative process.

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Careful there, Sean, I'd hate for GK to think you were doing any bit of promotion! (At least, that's what he accused me of when I pointed out the interview to him for fact-checking)

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Originally posted by sean:
GK: Going back to what you wrote about Hans Zimmer's ability to adapt to James Newton Howard's musical leanings and/or vice-versa, I think there's a point that Andrew brought up a while back about why these two were hired in the first place. I'm sure this will have no bearing on your opinions for the scores to Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, but it needs to be reiterated nonetheless just to clarify. Remember, it's Hans Zimmer who was pursued by Christopher Nolan to score Batman Begins; Nolan specifically wanted Zimmer for his style (like it or not, he's got a musical identity). Zimmer ended up writing music for Nolan for almost an entire year without being hired on the project whatsoever, sending Nolan pieces that he'd use for editing, etc. It was Zimmer's idea to bring James Newton Howard on board, since they'd discussed doing a joint score for quite some time at that point and this seemed like a great opportunity--I can't disagree with that. So, GK, no matter how you spin or how much you want to sit here and blame and blame and blame Zimmer for what he's done on these scores, direct it at Christopher Nolan, too, who undoubtedly had a big hand in shaping what these scores would become: He did hire Zimmer to be Zimmer, not to be James Newton Howard, or something else that he can't be but that you think he should be; he was a hired for a specific reason and that comes across pretty clearly. Blame the whole lot of them for doing what they wanted, but don't blame them for doing what you don't want; Batman Begins was a big success and in no small part to the score, it received a generously loud mix, so I think they achieved what they wanted and will do so again on The Dark Knight.

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