Sean's and Dan's two posts alone include so many leaps in logic that in all honesty, I would miss out on a few if I tried addressing all of them at once, so I'll try tomorrow.
By all means, I've got better things to do.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Aaargh ...!

Sean's and Dan's two posts alone include so many leaps in logic that in all honesty, I would miss out on a few if I tried addressing all of them at once, so I'll try tomorrow.
By all means, I've got better things to do.

For starters, I don't think I should blame the director for a composer's lazy ass.

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Originally posted by scoreguy16:
Lazy? In what way were they lazy? Did you even read what Sean wrote? Zimmer was writing temp cues for Nolan for a year before he was hired just for editing purposes. How is that lazy?

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A few years ago, I used to be a phone sex operator for lonely men (I do a wonderful and sexy female voice, just ask Sean and Jeron). One night I was phoned by a posh British man looking for "a girl with a big set of knockers and a knack for talking dirty." I conversed with the man for quite some time and eventually he asked me what music I was playing in the background (I've been known to play some epic music to get my clients really randy). I was a bit embarrassed so I just changed the subject. But this nice British man wouldn't let me, he just kept insisting. I told the man that is was the soundtrack to Ridley Scott's film Black Rain and that it was composed by Hans Zimmer. He immediately wanted to hear more Zimmer music, and played him The Lion King. He loved it. While I can't be too sure it was Christopher Nolan himself, I kind of feel like I inspired him to hire Hans Zimmer to score his Batman films.

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Apparently GK holds certain people to a higher standard than even he can live up to.

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Utter rubbish. This "argument" is in the same category as the dumb "Try writing something better".

Of course I understand what sean wrote; but that doesn't change a thing.
I never argued that Zimmer has an own identity; if you think he doesn't, you'd have to be completely deaf.
Zimmer wrote temp cues for Nolan. And then? When he finally does get hired, is it his priority to make the score sound as if the temp track hasn't changed? So, has he become a Remote Control whore like Jablonsky or Djawadi? It's his good right and duty to stand up against a director if he demands that - it's not like Zimmer and Howard are newbies who need the money.

And I see it slightly different anyway. I don't imagine that Zimmer and Howard are sitting in their dark rooms, feeling the whip of the director without having any control over their music. I'm very sure that sometimes, Zimmer does get his will because of his name and popularity, even if the director doesn't it say out loud.
And judging from the interviews I've read so far, the impression does not come across as if the director had some terribly important input. Quite on the contrary, for instance when JNH says about not writing a theme:

"It would give you too much information about this character, which is not true."

And this despite the fact that the films try hard to give an inside look on Bruce Wayne, to portray him as a human?

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But I think it's just a taste issue here,

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It is not a taste issue when Zimmer repeats his ideas and the same music ad nauseam.

Even if the original sound was fresh ten years ago, by now you get sick of always the same simplistic musac.

The worst thing is just that Zimmer sells it as brand new and "I think very hard about these things" every time.

It seems to me that *you* are very bitchy and whiny when someone is very vehemently defending his views; because you apparently have very little ability to process that.
I'm not being whiny in the least, I'm just being honest and adamant.
I guarantee you that I won't lose a second of sleep over this.

And by the way, many of your posts aren't short of a considerable amount of childish stubborness and insecure overcompensating.

To be fair, I have nothing against James Horner, and the niveau of copying that Horner executes from time to time is still a couple of levels above Zimmer, in composition as well as in orchestration and execution.
Zimmer's music is so rudimentary, so immovable, with such broad strokes that progress so lethargically ...
I have no problem when people like to listen to this, but great music it is as much as the latest No. 1 hit in the charts.

And don't act as if I ramble on with no point; contrary to you, who expresses his point of view with "Oh my god, this is fantastic, I love it!!!!" at least I have the courtesy to formulate a couple of connected sentences.
If you want to hear nothing but people liking and accepting this score, you should start talking with yourself.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:

It is not a taste issue when Zimmer repeats his ideas and the same music ad nauseam.

Even if the original sound was fresh ten years ago, by now you get sick of always the same simplistic musac.

The worst thing is just that Zimmer sells it as brand new and "I think very hard about these things" every time.

Bottom line is: the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Dark Knight may not be as atrocious as I percieve it, but it sure as hell isn't as great as some see it!

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Wait, what is Batman Begins a copy of? I've never really heard Zimmer repeat a theme (aside from Journey To The Line, but that's just a decending notes thing and it never actually sounds identical like a Horner thing). I sent Sean this nice little mix of Horners music I did, I think it was like 40 minutes at the time or something and everything fit together. Not sure that's actually supposed to be possible, but try doing that with Zimmer's music. I guarantee you can't make his music flow together. What do I get from that? That his music is different wether you notice it or not.

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That his music is different wether you notice it or not.

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If you really don't hear how identical and interchangable these RC things are, then there's really no talking to you.
No, really ... does the 16 in your name stand for your age? Because that at least would redeem you a bit ....

Do you think it's a great mystery that I consider the RC breed as the worst thing happening to quality film scoring since the 70s?
It made the production of scores than can be cobbled together with a paint-by-the-number method within three weeks the industry's standard, and that harmed the refined art film scoring used to be more than anything else.
And it's not popular because it's good, but because it's cheaper, it's predictable, and there are numerous cheaper clones that can reproduce the sound; and frankly, BB as well ad DK also don't sound as if they were produced in more than three weeks.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
BB as well ad DK also don't sound as if they were produced in more than three weeks

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Based on what? I'd like to see you do better....

Every bit of the DK score was planned, thought through, and developed over time. Even the "electronic sounds" used for the Joker are comprised of organic elements (Heitor Pereira on guitar, Michael Levine on violin, etc.) and then are crafted into such a way that you might not instantly recognize it as "oh that's a violin" or "oh that's a guitar", but evoke a certain sense of discomfort that appropriately matches the character of the Joker.

It's not something lightly slapped together in three weeks, nor is it something that your average listener will pick up on. There's more going on in these scores than just someone bashing out on synths for three weeks, which is what you seem to think is all that's there.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
No, really ... does the 16 in your name stand for your age? Because that at least would redeem you a bit ....

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Ahh, yes. A true sign that you can debate your ideas is when you attack someone's age. Nice one.

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
I could've swore that Clayton (scoreguy16) is probably the same age as you, GK. Early- to mid-twenties?

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Based on what? I'd like to see you do better....

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Empty argument, based on the philosophy of "when you can't attack a thought, attack the thinking person".

I've yet to read a comment that doesn't deal with my person, but rather with my points about the music. So far, I've made more points and stated my views on the score clearer than the whole bunch of you.
As a nice change of pace, why don't you try to focus on explaining why I'm wrong, instead of trying to convince people I'm insane?

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Unless you make *any* point on why my point of view is wrong (that means not only claiming I have some kind of ominous, in-born and unfounded "grudge" against anything RC), I have won.

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Umm... you seem not to understand how this works. See, you have an opinion. It might not be the same opinion as others of us on here, and that's fine.

We are under no obligation to prove to you that your opinion is wrong; it's just your opinion. So to claim that you've "won", whatever that means, is about as childish and silly a comment as I can imagine given the circumstances.

And when someone does, he gets weeded out by people like you or sean, who have been "opinionated" flat to stay politically correct, who use their "freedom of opinion" not only as a shield against "intolerant" attackers, but mainly as a shield against themselves, so that they don't even have to deal with their twisted views, that they don't have to think whether they are justified or not.
And that is truly intolerant; I suggest you read "The Wave".

Staying in the way "how this works", you accept different views as long as they aren't voiced too loudly, as long as they don't persist, and as long as it's accompanied by the general attitude of "but what does my voice count anyway?"
By that, you are crushing the virtues that belong to having an opinion.
And even further, people like sean aren't shy of admitting this openly, that he doesn't have a problem with my view, but with my defending of that very view, which he looks down upon as "bitching".

You're simply a "good mind" who thinks he's fighting for something, but in reality has no idea what that is, where he's picked it up, and in the process doesn't even realise that he's killing the individual in a person.
Don't you notice a certain increase of anarchy in the world?
That comes from those people who are politically hyper-correct.
When people come along and spill out such outright stupidity like "Zimmer is the best composer ever" or that "it's the best score of the year", that it's a "masterpiece", or even that "it deserves an Oscar", should I say "Gee, I don't *quite* agree, but I respect you for being so deluded"?

No, that would be self- betrayal, which today's society is apparently built on. It permeates everything, from politics to eating. And this small community is as infected as anything.

Having "an opinion" is no justification for anything, it has no substance, no content, no nothing; every monkey can have an opinion, he just can't voice it (I sure envy that ability sometimes).
"Everyone has his own opinion" is a thin veil when you're at a loss of a good point. "I don't even have to think about this", right?

I don't think you have a firm grasp of what discussing really means; it's not an exchange of "this is just me, you're right, too".

I'm not going to jump much into this pissing contest. I have not heard the music of or seen the film of The Dark Knight so I can't even judge it. However, I have seen and heard Batman Begins and would like to offer my half a penny's worth.

First, I understand the naysayers' points about BB's music sounding a little rehashed, and maybe to some, hastily put together. Howard's themes clearly resemble some of his previous works such as Unbreakable and Zimmer provides his well-known injections of action. I get this point.

I also don't care. In what rule book is it written that a composer must invent an entirely new and different sound in order to achieve a desired effect? Jerry Goldsmith -- whom I and many others highly respect -- has his signature written over dozens of scores. I'm not trying to compare Goldsmith to either Zimmer or Howard; I'm merely providing an example. Composers develop trademarks and they mold these trademarks to fit within the context of the movie.

I believe both Zimmer and Howard did a tremendous job of melding their respective "sounds" in with the Batman franchise. The "two-note" motif is perfect, the themes (regardless of their "simplicity") are superb, and the action is controlled and spot on.

Why do I think this? BB is about the initial developments of Batman and how the character came to be. It also delves a little into the psychology of Bruce Wayne and why he decided to pursue "Batman." In my mind, the perfect musical accompaniment to this would therefore be simple (two-note motif) and largely unthematic (to represent the development of Batman). There are no complex themes required for this movie and a heroic sounding theme such as Danny Elfman's fine work ("Batman" was developed for those movies) would only spoil BB by overcooking it.

SO, maybe the score sucks on its own. Maybe it contains some of that "been there, done that" material. I don't agree with or even really care about this stance, but I can understand why others might. The point is, the music for BB worked almost perfectly in the context of the film and proved to be a vital piece to the revival of the Batman franchise.

Now understand this. Everything I just wrote is MY opinion. Attacking opinions is a lot like playing whack-a-mole. No matter how hard you hit or how violently you throw down your punches, those damn things keep popping up.

GK: You read me wrong. And Dan, too. Oscars are of no concern to me and they will never be a concern of mine; also, Hans Zimmer isn't the best composer around... sorry, mate, that title belongs to Jerry Goldsmith and I'll be surprised if my opinion on that ever changes, which it will not. Goldsmith is the best composer to have ever lived and will always be, IMO. Oscars are meaningless, and I hope you agree with that, GK... actually, I'm sure you do because if you think Zimmer's and Howard's Batman music sucks than I don't think you'll be on board with Gustavo BLAH-BLAH's scores, right? Which, actually won Oscars!

All I can say is, I saw THE DARK KNIGHT. The music worked well in the film. No matter what I say about it, it's not going to convince you of anything, so there's really no point, is there? It's just a neverending cycle with you, which is why I pointed out that all your bitching and moaning has been about your OPINION, and nothing about the facts of the process.

Yes, we get it - you dislike Zimmer's music, and don't think it's good stuff.

But that's your opinion. You haven't shown us anything other than that, which is fine. To blindly lash out at us for pointing it out shows a major insecurity on your part. We don't have to prove anything to you; all you have to do is realize that there are people who DO like this type of film music, that this type of film music - regardless of your OPINION - works successfully in the film, and obviously the people who tend to think that are the ones MAKING the films. If you don't like the way it is, then by all means, make a movie and hire a composer you think is best suited for your project.

Until I see you actually contribute anything to further the state of film music, you're just some random guy in Germany stating his opinion on a messageboard.

And please. "Killing the individual in a person"? Aren't you being just a tad hyperbolic? This is a film music message board, for goodness sakes. I find it funny that you accuse me of stifling opinions, and yet you seem to take every opportunity to attack us personally just for differing with you, and pointing it out. It might seem "obvious" to you, but clearly it wasn't, because you were incredibly dismissive of countering opinions.

Instead of lashing out in a rather passive-aggressive pseudo-intellectual manner, maybe you could (as Sean just mentioned) tell us what we could possibly say (hypothetically) that would make you happy?

BTW, I've been called intolerant before, but your reasons for calling me that are truly laughable. I've done nothing to stifle differing opinions on this board or elsewhere. I don't have that kind of power!

And bringing up "The Wave"? Are you kidding me?? Don't you know Godwin's Law? That would suggest that this discussion is now officially over.

For those who don't know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(book) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
You don't seem to understand that I know very well how your way of thinking works: you have a point of view, I have a point of view, and since both are right, discussion is futile. And if discussion, then only in a marshmallowy comfort zone.
It's utterly transparent how "this works", and it kills progression dead in its tracks because you can't bring up very obvious shortcomings in an earnest way.

And when someone does, he gets weeded out by people like you or sean, who have been "opinionated" flat to stay politically correct, who use their "freedom of opinion" not only as a shield against "intolerant" attackers, but mainly as a shield against themselves, so that they don't even have to deal with their twisted views, that they don't have to think whether they are justified or not.
And that is truly intolerant; I suggest you read "The Wave".

Staying in the way "how this works", you accept different views as long as they aren't voiced too loudly, as long as they don't persist, and as long as it's accompanied by the general attitude of "but what does my voice count anyway?"
By that, you are crushing the virtues that belong to having an opinion.
And even further, people like sean aren't shy of admitting this openly, that he doesn't have a problem with my view, but with my defending of that very view, which he looks down upon as "bitching".

You're simply a "good mind" who thinks he's fighting for something, but in reality has no idea what that is, where he's picked it up, and in the process doesn't even realise that he's killing the individual in a person.
Don't you notice a certain increase of anarchy in the world?
That comes from those people who are politically hyper-correct.
When people come along and spill out such outright stupidity like "Zimmer is the best composer ever" or that "it's the best score of the year", that it's a "masterpiece", or even that "it deserves an Oscar", should I say "Gee, I don't *quite* agree, but I respect you for being so deluded"?

No, that would be self- betrayal, which today's society is apparently built on. It permeates everything, from politics to eating. And this small community is as infected as anything.

Having "an opinion" is no justification for anything, it has no substance, no content, no nothing; every monkey can have an opinion, he just can't voice it (I sure envy that ability sometimes).
"Everyone has his own opinion" is a thin veil when you're at a loss of a good point. "I don't even have to think about this", right?

I don't think you have a firm grasp of what discussing really means; it's not an exchange of "this is just me, you're right, too".

You still haven't brought up some good points, you're really just busy telling me why I'm supposedly utterly inadequate, when in reality, you're the one who isn't up to it.

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I am also glad someone brought up Goldsmith. I love his music, I was listening to Executive Decission the other day and thought about this whole thing. Now Sean, don't take this the wrong way as it's not meant to be an insult at all. But Goldsmith had a sound/style. Just like everyone else. Williams has a sound, Zimmer has a sound, Gregson-Williams has a sound, Mancina has a sound... EVERY COMPOSER HAS THEIR TRADEMARK. That is why they're hired in the first place. A director feels their style would be perfect for their film. Why is it bad that Zimmer has a style and sound, but not Goldsmith or anyone else? Horner copies his own themes all the time which people point out and accept.

But I don't understand how someone could hate Zimmer so much, and ignore people like Tyler Bates who actually should be sued for plagiarism for Slither and 300. And there's also Brian Tyler who copied Shrek and A Beautiful Mind. But lets ignore them and focus on the fact that Zimmer's music sounds sort of like other scores he's done.

This whole thread has just one insane, from being asked if I was 16 like it's why I have some poor taste in music according to someone's opinion and I shouldn't like the music because of their opinion, to talk of the world going down the crapper because of people who are politically hyper-correct.

It's a movie music board. People from everywhere can come here and talk about music and they should be able to without being crapped upon. If you don't agree with something, why not just shrug your shoulders and move on? I don't agree with Sean saying that Goldsmith is the greatest composer ever, but I wont argue with him as that's his right. And if he finds joy out of that music than so be it. I am not going to try to crush him and tell him why I don't think he's the greatest composer ever (I don't think that's even a title I'd give to anyone as it's not really possible in my eyes). I will just let him enjoy his Goldsmith without picking a fight with him. Just like I'll let him call The Dark Knight a masterpiece when I haven't heard it yet. Just like the fact I like the score to Wall E even though others don't as much but I don't see any of us fighting over it. The examples are limitless if you notice.

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Nicely put, Dan. Reading through this post almost made me want to drive a stake through my head.

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Nice and intelligent, and provides another example of what I wrote in my last post.
Instead of writing anything coherent to counter it, you crap over it with some mildly amusing humour; and you do exactly what a few accuse me of, saying you are right and I'm an idiot, without providing any justification for it.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:

Nice and intelligent, and provides another example of what I wrote in my last post.
Instead of writing anything coherent to counter it, you crap over it with some mildly amusing humour; and you do exactly what a few accuse me of, saying you are right and I'm an idiot, without providing any justification for it.

Oh well, I have nothing to add to my last post, since the triangle of doom continues to miss the point.

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I like how you just completely ignore everything else that was posted. It was explained why some people enjoy the score to Batman Begins and why you can't just say "this music is trash!" and have everyone think the same thing. But then again, I am starting to think that you don't want that to be the point of this thread anymore. All I see is you coming here trying to fight with Dan and Sean. And by the way, you tried to put someone down for being 16, what makes that better than what Chris said?

So I have a pretty good suggestion (at least in my eyes), instead of sitting here acting like your some high and mighty person that everyone should agree with and like you're some gift to people to help them open their eyes and look past some magic veil that's been pulled over their heads to make them believe they're enjoying something when they're really not, move on to a differen thread. This thread is supposed to be about The Dark Knight, and since you obviously hate Zimmer and his music, it's probably not the thread for you.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Oh well, I have nothing to add to my last post, since the triangle of doom continues to miss the point.

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I provided justification for MY opinion of the score. I don't give a rat's ass what you think. How could I or anyone else come up with any "good points" when there'd be no circumstance under which you'd accept them! Every discussion is based on opinion, so trying to dismiss "opinions" as a valid entry into this matter is cheap. It's like you want hard, empirical data as proof that you're "wrong." It's simply impossible and thus not even worth the effort. Music and movies are subjective whether you like it or not.

Of course discussion is based on opinion! On what else? I just hate it when people leave their opinion with two lines, and when someone writes more elaborately why they *could* look at it from a doubtful angle, all that comes as a response is not a good thought, but "it's my view, so leave me alone". Or in an even more ridiculous case, he ignores three whole paragraphs, and instead seriously picks at the one comment that was obviously meant to be ironic.
It reveals a lot when someone focuses on the ironic statement instead of the point it was trying to make.

Do you think this way, any kind of conversation is possible? I don't.

That nobody gives a rat's ass about what other people think is the *real* problem.

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I like how you just completely ignore everything else that was posted.

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Ah, you mean like numerous other people completely ignored what *I* wrote?
I'm sorry, like described above, when you put quite a bit of thought into numerous posts (not being English, it sometimes takes a bit to articulate a thought adequately), and people don't even try to understand it, you just lose interest.

That I still keep posting in this obvious drivel is only due to the fact that I resent the apparent consensus of the traingle of doom that I rambled on, and still do, with no point whatsoever, being helplessly confused.

Who knows, maybe I am? After all, I seem to be the only one who appreciated Lou Goldberg's views in the short time I've experienced him.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
That nobody gives a rat's ass about what other people think is the *real* problem.

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GK, I tried to provide an "elaborate" (I don't know if mine qualifies) basis for my opinion, but you threw it under the bus as me crapping all over something.

If that's how you prefer to converse, well, that's fine.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Well, that nobody cares about another person's opinion *is* part of what's wrong with the world, and that has also something to do with this "discussion", but nothing with you personally, you just gave me a good opportunity to mention it.

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Originally posted by sean:
Sorry to put this to a halt, but seriously Clayton where did I type that Goldsmith's style "stopped?" His is is the best, hands down, dunno why you typed that.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
'Why so serious', if it appears in the opening bank heist as seen in the trailer, recalls parts of Elliot Goldenthal's HEAT at times.

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Michael, you're right, that is the point. The scene, too, is shot and played out in a very Heat-like fashion, but just a lot more cool, IMO. I have no idea why gkgyver thought this was a "Joker suite" as it's all screen-specific action music, meaning that it follows the on-screen action to the letter, and with a gorgeously LOUD mix, might I add.