quote:

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Originally posted by BackToTheFutureFan:
I wish they would stop making comic book films all together. Lazy filmmakers with their computers and terrible scripts.

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Did you even bother to see Batman Begins, Iron Man, or The Incredible Hulk? These are fantastic films based on comic books, and it's insulting that you might be so arrogant to think that comic books don't have the ability to tell a good story. In fact, Hollywood is turning to comics b/c the story reserves are so rich and vast. Yes, it's easy to make a crappy comic book movie. John Favreau and Chris Nolan have demonstrated that it is entirely possible to make a great comic book movie, though. Go see Iron Man; you're broken if you think it's a bad movie; that or you've entirely lost touch with your ability to have fun at the movies.[/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I love being called names by people on the internet. Arrogant huh? I think the sad thing is that the American public (including you) have forgotten about creative filmmaking and what it is and have just come to expect one film after another trying to top eachothers computer generated effects. I've said this once and I'll say it again, the CG era has let filmmakers do what would normally be impossible with more traditional effects..and that more often than not allows the filmmaker to kill his/her work. Yes..kill it...just like an artist can kill his painting by going too far...always wanting more and not knowing when to stop. I am still waiting for another T2, or a JP where they use CG tastefully and effectively. I miss sets, I miss real explosions and car chases, thats why its too bad stan winston has died...anyway. Please, state your opinion but be classy about it. I'm pretty sure we've grown out of the calling name stage.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Did you even bother to see Batman Begins, Iron Man, or The Incredible Hulk? These are fantastic films based on comic books, and it's insulting that you might be so arrogant to think that comic books don't have the ability to tell a good story. In fact, Hollywood is turning to comics b/c the story reserves are so rich and vast. Yes, it's easy to make a crappy comic book movie. John Favreau and Chris Nolan have demonstrated that it is entirely possible to make a great comic book movie, though. Go see Iron Man; you're broken if you think it's a bad movie; that or you've entirely lost touch with your ability to have fun at the movies.[/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I love being called names by people on the internet. Arrogant huh? I think the sad thing is that the American public (including you) have forgotten about creative filmmaking and what it is and have just come to expect one film after another trying to top eachothers computer generated effects. I've said this once and I'll say it again, the CG era has let filmmakers do what would normally be impossible with more traditional effects..and that more often than not allows the filmmaker to kill his/her work. Yes..kill it...just like an artist can kill his painting by going too far...always wanting more and not knowing when to stop. I am still waiting for another T2, or a JP where they use CG tastefully and effectively. I miss sets, I miss real explosions and car chases, thats why its too bad stan winston has died...anyway. Please, state your opinion but be classy about it. I'm pretty sure we've grown out of the calling name stage.

BTW..I am looking forward to The Dark Knight..mainly because I am interested in seeing another creative attempt at recreating the Joker...a very complex character. Seems like computers is more valuable than decent scripts and good character relationships in the film industry these days.

[Message edited by BackToTheFutureFan on 06-18-2008][/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Message edited by BackToTheFutureFan on 06-18-2008]

[Message edited by BackToTheFutureFan on 06-18-2008]

Sorry for the double post

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Originally posted by scoreaholic:
So is the next installment of both of these movies going to be one movie with both characters in it? Were they together in any comic books?

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
I thought that both Hulk and The Incredible Hulk both managed to convey what StarlessWinter said above; as well as Nolan's Batman film(s) and Singer's X2. I'd go as far as saying that The Incredible Hulk is the Aliens to Ang Lee's Hulk being Alien.

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I rarely feel compelled to reply on the board, but I simply had to after reading the quote above!
Is that comparison based purely on the fact that the second movie in both franchises is more action orientated than the first? Cause otherwise I think its a huge disservice to mention the first two Alien films in the same breath as the Hulk ones!
The first Hulk was terrible and the second was merely average, whereas the first two Alien movies are modern classics.

Personally, I think its great that so many previously untouched comic franchises are now being explored in movies (in an age when special effects can now bring to life just about anything you can imagine). But while the CGI might look amazing and the action scenes are breathtaking, a lot of these movies struggle with elements that have kept these comic books alive all these years (notabley; dialogue, plot and most importantly CHARACTERS). These things often take a back seat to action and spectacle and its one of the reasons why most comic book movies feel so cold and shallow.

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Personally, I think its great that so many previously untouched comic franchises are now being explored in movies (in an age when special effects can now bring to life just about anything you can imagine). But while the CGI might look amazing and the action scenes are breathtaking, a lot of these movies struggle with elements that have kept these comic books alive all these years (notabley; dialogue, plot and most importantly CHARACTERS). These things often take a back seat to action and spectacle and its one of the reasons why most comic book movies feel so cold and shallow.
[/B]

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Exactly.

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Originally posted by scoreaholic:
So is the next installment of both of these movies going to be one movie with both characters in it? Were they together in any comic books?

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Yes! Hulk and Iron Man have come to blows many times in the comics and also, innevitably, had to team up at times to defeat a common menace.

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Wow, I love being called names by people on the internet. Arrogant huh? I think the sad thing is that the American public (including you) have forgotten about creative filmmaking and what it is and have just come to expect one film after another trying to top eachothers computer generated effects. I've said this once and I'll say it again, the CG era has let filmmakers do what would normally be impossible with more traditional effects..and that more often than not allows the filmmaker to kill his/her work. Yes..kill it...just like an artist can kill his painting by going too far...always wanting more and not knowing when to stop. I am still waiting for another T2, or a JP where they use CG tastefully and effectively. I miss sets, I miss real explosions and car chases, thats why its too bad stan winston has died...anyway. Please, state your opinion but be classy about it. I'm pretty sure we've grown out of the calling name stage.[/B]

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I apologize if I offended you, BTTFFan... I actually agree with your arguments re: too much CG. It's one of the many things that ruined Indy4 for me. What I was responding to was this:

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I wish they would stop making comic book films all together. Lazy filmmakers with their computers and terrible scripts.

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I just think it's awfully high and mighty of you to spit at a genre of films that clearly have a large following. Comic book fans are just as critical, if not moreso, about how their favorite characters and stories are brought to life and executed on the silver screen.

How about this? Rather than wishing "they" would stop making comic book films altogether, how about wishing "they" would start making comic book films better?

Also, if you possess such a disdain for comic book-based films, why even bother to drudge around in this thread? All you are doing is complaining and bemoaning a subject we're all quite familiar with; you're not actually contributing constructive conversation. Might as well talk about James Horner.

Jeron

If it's score you want to talk about: Iron Man and Incredible Hulk have absolutely forgettable scores.

I also agree with sean....in that, BTTFF sounds like a ranter. YEEEEEEEE-IKES!! They're all the same, aren't they? They don't see something they like so they blame the whole genre.
Hey, BTTFF, have you made a movie? Any thing worth payin for? And why do people get so upset about something that others like? No. They gotta get upset and pee on everyone's parade. And he's speaking for "the American Public". LOL! Thanks, BTTFF. :P

jeez, they're just movies. Love em or hate em.
You can shut em off or keep watchin.
At least the directors of all the movies you rant negative about did their jobs successfully. They illicited a reaction from you. Too bad ya gotta be angry about it.
Jeron, ya shouldn't waste your time. I agree with your comments and admire your patient efforts, but, it's a brick wall.

Ang Lee's film is the leisurely-paced, intelligent, brooding and atmospheric sci-fi film; while Louis Leterrier's film is the big, dumb (in a good way, it's still very thrilling), epic, spectacular, action/adventure sci-fi film. I'll admit to be on the edge of my seat. Leterrier proved that he has a great eye for shooting action scenes with this film; I thought that the daytime campus brawl was one of the best action set pieces of recent history. And his treatment of the first "Hulk-out" (treating it like a horror film) was perfect. I'd love to see Leterrier handle a Bond film with Alexander Witt as Second Unit/Stunt Co-ordinator and a John Powell score. That'd be a perfect Bond film.

And also, did someone just cite comic books as having "good dialogue"?

[Message edited by nuts_score on 06-19-2008]

[Message edited by Al on 06-19-2008]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I don’t see why intelligence and action in a super-hero movie need to be two mutually exclusive things??

When it comes to the movies (or summer blockbusters at least) of course you are perfectly right when you say its action and spectacle that gets people into a cinema. But if that’s all the movie is, one big CGI-action fest with paper-thin characters and a poor script, then it really doesn’t bare repeat viewings.

And I would argue that both movies and comics are not just “primarily visual mediums”. A comic with poor art and great writing is better than a comic with great art and terrible writing. The art enhances the words. The same could be said of movies; how a film looks (direction/production/SFX) has to come second to a good script with great characters and dialogue. If you don’t care for the characters and their story, then an incredible special-effects heavy fight scene at the end of the film isn’t going to suddenly make the whole thing worthwhile.

It’s sad really. I love reading comics, and having a movie made of my favourite characters would be an amazing way to expose them to a whole new audience (and in turn, get more people reading the comics). But all that shoddy super-hero movies do is make people think that the source material is equally poor and write off comics as something childish and less than worthwhile.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by nuts_score:

And also, did someone just cite comic books as having "good dialogue"?<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! I think something I said did imply that, yes! But believe it or not, there are many comics out there with excellent dialogue (though it must be said there are also a good number out there with cheesy cringe-worthy dialogue too!).

On another note: Boy do you need thick skin to be posting on internet forums! I don’t think theres really any need for everyone to gang up on BTTFF. This thread began with talk of superheros and comics, so why wouldn’t his comments revolve around that? Hes not attacking anyone personally, just expressing an opinion, surely thats allowed?

Thanks Full Circle for respecting an opinion.

[Message edited by BackToTheFutureFan on 06-20-2008]

You replied with this: "But I don't see why intelligence and action in a super-hero movie need to be two mutually exclusive things?"

Not only did I not say nearly anything to that effect, and as a writer, I don't think I ever will, but I implied that a solid, intelligent story centering on an interesting character is what will actually get people to come back to a movie again and again.

We're seeing this with Iron Man right now. Do you consider this another shoddy super-hero movie? I think it's surprisingly good, with a pretty solid story about an interesting character who undergoes a dramatic change inside and out--hell, he literally gets a new heart.

What got people into the theater were the previews showing Robert Downey Jr. pressing a button and exploding a desert landscape and a shot of Iron Man shooting a tank and walking away as it blew up. What got them coming back was word of mouth that it was actually a fun, witty movie and not just brainless spectacle.

So yes, story and character have to come first before the visuals (Indy 4), but that's not necessarily the first priority of moviegoers when deciding what to see during the summer movie season.

Imagine if the previews for Iron Man looked more like an episode of the Power Rangers. The movie could have had the best writing and dialogue in the world, but who the hell would go see that? I mean aside from Jeron, because that's his favorite show.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
indignant rationalisation, while others respond with obnoxious sarcasm.

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Indignant rationalization must be me!

Obnoxious sarcasm must be Sean!

Wooh, I completely took you up the wrong way that first time, my bad!! I pretty much agree with everything you said there, to be honest.

As for Iron Man, I wasn't expecting much from it (mainly cause I didn't think Favreau could handle the job), so was pretty impressed with how it turned out. Even before I saw it I thought Downey Jr. was spot on casting (he practically IS Stark in real life :P). The writing was snappy, the pace brisk, the characters (at least the main one) were explored to some extent. And of course the effects were impressive (but were thankfully used sparingly!).

Now, back to the topic at hand...

And I do understand that since you are a comic book enthusiast, you expect a lot from the films. But compromises are always going to be made with a studio film, right? Especially if it's coming from source material with a lot of history to it.

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Originally posted by sean:
Jeron! HAHA! I just read Michael's post and was thinking the exact same thing.

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I have a tendency to do those things myself from time to time.

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I agree. Let's be nice. I want to get along with everyone, but I do want to be able to have an opinion without being insulted. But I'm over it.

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I love your opinion, BTTFF. Really. I'm glad we have this forum available to us to spout out our differences and sort them out. It's fun and informative. Also, I just arrived home from enjoying a plentiful amount of beer and alcohol with friends. I had a wonderful night. I'm being as honest as I can be. :-)

I also think this is the first commemorative inebriated post I've ever posted, at age 27 -- and I've been posting here since age 15 or 16. So a celebration is due. It should speak MOUNTAINS that I'd visit my friends here at moviemusic.com before passing out, carelessly. Drinks on me. Everyone, enjoy!

Jeron

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Originally posted by craig:
"...and everything was good again in the world....
...UNTIL...."

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. . . I declared my love for Sean's mom, as well as Jeron's and everyone else's; even FishChip's lovely wife.

We'll see what kind of heat that brings to the fire.

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
We'll see what kind of heat that brings to the fire.

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Originally posted by Jeron:

I guess that all depends on what kind of love you're talking about...

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Only one kind: puppy love.