BTW, if you read my post you would have seen that I did bring up Eidelman AND Horner as two young composers who knocked the ball out of the park with their Trek scores, something that I'm confident Giacchino will do as well. And while at the same time I think he will also surpass anything and everything Goldsmith wrote in Insurrection and Nemesis. I'm not BASHING Goldsmith here... I'm a big supporter and fan of Goldsmith's music... and yes, I understand that he was ill while writing Nemesis... but just because he was sick doesn't mean that his bad music is all of a sudden good. It was just a bad score. Insurrection was the same... except for the Ba'Ku theme, which I also mentioned in my previous post.

Now, if you two... AI and sean... both enjoyed the last two Goldsmith score, then fine, you are allowed to... but IMHO they were some of the weakest entries in the Star Trek universe. And having heard over 50 Giacchino film and TV scores as well as numerous concert works I have no doubt in my mind that Michael is one of the most talent "new comers" in the film music community and will compose one of the best Trek scores we have ever heard.

Why do you people have a problem with this?

-Erik-

I have a problem with this quote, too, because it's retarded: Giacchino "will compose one of the best Trek scores we have ever heard."

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Originally posted by sean:
LMAO! You're crazy, and an ass-hole: ..."but just because he was sick doesn't mean that his bad music is all of a sudden good."

I have a problem with this quote, too, because it's retarded: Giacchino "will compose one of the best Trek scores we have ever heard."

Go watch Braveheart.

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I was hoping it wouldn't get to this, Sean, but you are so full of yourself. I'm not going to go as far as to calling you an ******* (that was uncalled for) but if there ever was a definition of one, it would be you. You have some SERIOUS problems my friend. It might have something to do with the fact that you are from Ottawa but I'll let that slide... for now. Time to grow up, Sean.

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Originally posted by BigT1981:
Now now boys, let's not have a pissing contest here. I'm sure the two of you can act like civilized [b]grown men.
[/B]

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Oh, I have been. I'm not the one calling other people ass-holes.

-Erik-

-Erik-

PS - As for the Ottawa comment. The city is both cold and harsh... just like you. And if you ever see me face-to-face try calling me an ass-hole then.

EDIT NOTE --> Now you have gone and ERASED your comments?! Oh man... OH MAN! I'd give you more credit if you kept what you erased but now you have REALLY shown your true self. Be a man, grow some balls and put the original post back up.

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Originally posted by sean:
Really?

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What made you chicken out?

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Originally posted by sean:
LOL! "out" of what? I actually hadn't even read your post when I edited mine, ebbing to the inevitable that it was a thorough waste of time.

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Uh-huh!

I stand firmly by my words. I did read your post, and you made one miniscule mention of Eidelman before going into paragraphs about Goldsmith. I'm sure you've heard about the "straw man" argument before, and that's exactly what you were doing here. You trashed two Goldsmith scores to argue for a Giacchino score that you believe will be one of the best in the series, although you have yet to hear any of it. I take issue not with your belief in Giacchino's talents but with your blithe and reckless trashing of Goldsmith's later works to argue for that belief. With a comment such as "just because he was sick doesn't mean that his bad music is all of a sudden good" you show a clear lack of respect for the composer who set the benchmark for the series. Nemesis and Insurrection are weak only by basis of comparison to the fact that his other contributions to the series are so groundbreaking. Even you have made that point by bringing up his score for Star Trek V. If you want to be taken seriously and considered with respect then you might do well to do the same in your remarks, because frankly some of them have been rather shameless.

Pointless "bickering" aside, I've been here so long that I just post, it was fascinating to discover (by clicking your name) that you've got your own radio show (which, from the few minutes I sampled, appears competent and constructive) and that you're 31. Not that age is the be-all/end-all marker of behaviour and "maturity" ...some of my posts sure don't qualify and I'm 24... But it seems as though poster-writing you're far less up the ladder than I, specifically with your blanket and negative arguments to defend what you apparently firmly believe: "apparently," because you provide dubious evidence and switch to the offensive with your blinders on; and then we get posts that just reiterate your previous opinions, without adding anything substantial to ground what you type, and appear to be more offended in continuation.

For Star Trek: Nemesis and Star Trek: Insurrection you've done nothing but write that they are bad (hilariously, you pursued complete recordings of scores you don't like), shown complete disregard and respect towards a universally revered and now dead composer while attacking a score he composed at his end (and what a score that is! one that is first-rate, superbly screen-specific, and expertly progressive; you seem to have an FSM connection, so ask Jeff Bond about it, and read his excellent book, The Music Of Star Trek). And then you have the stupidity to compare Goldsmith to the yet untested Michael Giacchino, and where is the evidence that he was "born" to score Star Trek? Did he tell you that? LOL! "Erik, I was born to score Star Trek!" Other than his purported destiny to be writing Star Trek music, what other evidence do you have? Oh yeah, that's right, Nemesis and Insurrection "stunk," so Giacchino can now right those wrongs. For one sentence, let's entertain your opinion to be right and true (even though it isn't), so how do you defend your opinion of James Horner's score to Braveheart, which is one of his most derivative and unoriginal scores to date, when you hold such a similar and firm belief about a superior composer, Jerry Goldsmith, and about two of his good scores? I don't see that you can have it both ways: let lack of originality and competence slide at one end, Braveheart, and then usher in that exact opinion so you can piss on Goldsmith. (Your lack of respect for Jerry Goldsmith garners you ZERO respect from me, you clearly can't be taken seriously, and it also didn't help that you 31-year-old tried to threaten me 24-year-old "then" if you ever see me in person [I won't ever threaten someone in such a way, especially online, when it can be all the more threatening these days]; last night's posts were a testament to that stupidity of yours: it was an amusing distraction after a long day at work, in-between making dinner and watching the explosive finale to Intelligence [I trust you're keeping up with great Canadian television?].)

Erik, I agree with you that STAR TREK(S) INSURRECTION and NEMESIS aren't that great.

As much as I love Jerry Goldsmith, I found his later TREK scores rather tired, and given his health situation it's totally understandable.

In my opinion, I found Goldsmith's film work rather inconsistent in his later years (say after 1990). Don't get me wrong...he did some fantastic work in those years, but nothing really was as great as his peak period in the late 1960s to 1982 or so. In those years, I feel everything he touched was gold.

Now...about this BRAVEHEART business. I absolutely can't stand that film and the score is okay Horner but not anything near his best work. I prefer THE MAN WITHOUT A FACE as a film and score above BRAVEHEART. But to be honest, I can't abide by anything Mel Gibson does anymore and it is hard for me to watch even his earlier works.

I think Giacchino is a great new talent and I know he'll bring some new life to the STAR TREK franchise. It might be nice to have a score that only touches on Alexander Courage's original theme and not any other previous one.

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
BOTH ERIK AND SEAN NEED TO STOP THE BICKERING AND GET ON TRACK!!!

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http://movies.ign.com/articles/035/035940p1.html

The part about Speed Racer is down near the bottom of the page, well past the part about Jerry Goldsmith begging to score Dragonheart before the studio and Rob Cohen torpedoed the film.

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Originally posted by Stargate:
Nuts, was a pun intended there?

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Originally posted by Squiddybop:
Normally I'm not one for straying too far from the source material, but I really would have loved to see Patrick Read Johnson's revisionist take on the story. He discussed it in an old interview at IGN:

http://movies.ign.com/articles/035/035940p1.html

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It's very interesting that they bring up The Matrix near the end of the discussion. And I'm all for deviating from source material; it's either a straight-up adaptation or a deviation to suit the ideas and style of the filmmaker (like, Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove or Copolla's Dracula). His ideas actually sound very fun; it's a shame that he's a terrible director.

And a Goldsmith Dragonheart score would've won my heart (there's your pun).

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
(there's your pun).

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However, I will respond to a few comments before I go.

The Goldsmith comment. I have all the respect in the world for that man. He is one of my favorite composers. But, I mention that Goldsmith music was bad in Nemesis and you two (Sean and AI) come back saying well it's not bad for a composer who was ill. While I understand that Goldsmith was ill... I wasn't attacking Goldsmith for being ill. All I said was that it's still bad music given the circumstances. I'm not going to give Goldsmith a freepass just because he was sick which is something you guys did to when defending the score.

As for the Star Trek comment... I said "This guy was born to score a big sci-fi adventure film like this." He is a huge fan of the Star Wars and Star Trek scores so that's why I can say what I did. He has written some huge epic adventure music in the past... especially in his video game work... which I think will translate nicely into the Star Trek universe.

As for respect... I have none for you whatsoever, Sean. Your first post to me was nothing but disrespectful. And then there was the ass-hole comment which I also didn't deserve and would be something that you wouldn't have the balls to say to my face. And then you showed your true, immature self in a post that you wrote on 12-14-2007 09:32 PM but then 20 minutes later removed and have yet to re-post. You are a coward, Sean, and that is yet another reason why I have absolutely no respect for you.

And the Braveheart thing, Sean.. I've definitely hit a nerve. You say that you don't care whether I like the score/film or not... well, it's obvious that you do and is something that you really NEED to get over.

-Erik-

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Originally posted by Erik Woods:
... there's no amount of writing that I can do to convince you that Giacahino's previous music is good and that we WILL do a magnificent job on the next Star Trek film.

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Well I guess we know why he's talking it up now.

J/k - all this arguing seems pretty pointless to me.

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Originally posted by BigT1981:
Erik,

You're a moron. That's all I have to say.

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Hilarious!

-Erik-

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Erik Woods:
[b]... there's no amount of writing that I can do to convince you that Giacahino's previous music is good and that [b]we WILL do a magnificent job on the next Star Trek film.
[/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I guess we know why he's talking it up now.
[/B]

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-Erik-

You earlier said: "Boy oh boy oh boy... do we ever get sensitive around here." As if this is any surprise. If none of us were sensitive about film music, we wouldn't be on this board talking about it, and we certainly wouldn't take the time to listen to the scores on anyone's radio show. You needlessly went on a tangent about Goldsmith's scores for Nemesis and Insurrection instead of further arguing for Giacchino, and as a result I, with deep respect and admiration for Goldsmith's talent, took off my glove and slapped you in the face. And then "boy oh boy", you seem surprised?

And now you just said this: "All I said was that it's still bad music given the circumstances. I'm not going to give Goldsmith a freepass just because he was sick which is something you guys did to when defending the score."

I'm calling B.S. on this too. It's not bad music given the circumstances, but even if you do think this, you could certainly state it with a little more discretion than that. Your statement that you're not going to give Goldsmith "a free pass because he's sick" lacks both discretion and compassion. You already know that there are those of us sensitive on this subject and still you state it as blunt as that.

I'm not giving Goldsmith a free pass on Nemesis--it doesn't evoke the emotion that his other Trek scores do (although that end credit piece does give me chills)--but it's a testament to the man's skill that despite his condition and the shoddiness of the film's story that Nemesis is as good as it is: a solid, cohesive, well-crafted score. Giacchino has youth and good health on his side, but he doesn't have the skill and discipline that decades of experience in film composing provides.

I'll say it again because I think it bears repeating: if Giacchino hits this Trek score out of the park, it will likely be because: 1. the film's story inspires it and allows for grand musical material 2. Giacchino, still a somewhat new composer, will still have the ambition and desire to get an impassioned score out of the orchestra 3. Giacchino, despite his knowledge of writing for orchestra, won't get carried away as some younger composers do and will, like Goldsmith did for all his Trek scores, have the discipline to provide an appropriate, focused, and skillfully crafted score.

The "Oh Boy Oh Boy" comment.

While I respect your admiration for Jerry Gomdsith and his work it seems that some people get overly sensitive when there is any negativity thrown Goldsmith's way. This is also true with fans of other composers. But it seems like even when the composer is at his absolutely worst the Goldsmith fan or Williams fans or Horner fan will always think that every single score the composer has worked on is GOLD or at least above average. I'm a huge Williams fan but I will be one of the first to point out the many faults in many of his scores. So, I understand that we are ALL passionate film music fans but sometimes being over-protective of some scores I find to be rather ridiculous. However, if you like Nemesis fine. I don't and I have explained why in previous posts. And the reason I kept bringing up Insurrection and Nemesis is because Sean was the one guiding the conversation that way. He never once responded to my post from 12-11-2007 01:53 PM where I talked about Michael's career briefly with examples of his fine work to "inspire confidence" that Michael will do a great job with Star Trek.

Goldsmith Illness Statements

If I offended you or any other Goldsmith fan with my comments then I'm truly sorry. I was trying to make a point but I guess I failed. I didn't mean any harm or disrespect to Goldsmith because as I stated before he is one of my favorite composers.

Let's see if I can clear this up...

You stated that Nemesis is "a solid, cohesive, well-crafted score." Unfortunately, that's just not enough for me to call it good music or a good film score. And I hope I'm not being insensitive again, but Goldsmith was suffering even more when he wrote Looney Tunes and that one turned out to be far more creative and well-crafted than Nemesis ever was. It was one of my favorite scores from 2003. So with all due respect, that's why I don't think using Goldsmith's illness as reason why his score to Nemesis wasn't at par with the first three Trek score Goldsmith wrote flies with me.

I really hope I managed to get my point across without upsetting you further.

-Erik-

Michael Giacchino is easily the most inventive composer of the younger generation working out there today.

His musicianship, utter professionalism and talents are truly spectacular while he holds the highest possible technical level for all his compositions but simultaneously filtering it all through his vastly admirable capabilities for effective melodic creation and manipulation in ways rarely met today.

He is a man that doesn’t just underscore a scene; he’s a man that proceeds way beyond the surface, into the depth of the scene and its meaning, truly elevating it and really capturing the inner musical voice of each on-screen bit of visual he composes for.

As far as his musical approach is concerned, I’d say he’s one of the very few today who are really able to “turn back time a bit” and approach a movie truly thematically-centered, as opposed to the usual standard approach of 2-3 note motifs we get around these days, and the same time making his gorgeous themes sounding totally up to date, modern and genuinely melodic.

If there’s ONE composer today actually able to capture the real essence of the new STAR TREK movie – and virtually anything else as well (he’s proven that numerously throughout the variety and quality of his works all these years), then that one is Michael Giacchino, the only one who has proven able of fully understanding but most importantly continuing the tradition of the greats upon which some people seem to be so stuck nowadays.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
I think Demetris is the high priest of the 'Michael Giacchino is Coming Back' church.

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