So I've been having a TON of fun listening to stuff that I would never think of playing in 5 or 10 years. It's been really great listening to my old favs like Glory, Empire Strikes Back, Raiders, Superman, and recently I went through my entire James Bond collection and I can't believe I still havent' gotten Die Another Day and Casino Royale lol! I started backwards working from "W" - "P" in one CD rack and I'll be working on the other rack during the week. Not to mention the other rack I have of Rock, Classic Rock, Punk & Metal I think I got about 800 CDs to go through.

I've been ripping my CDs from day one, so I've never had to do more than 15 rips at a time. I have everything loaded onto a 500gb external drive and encoded at 320kbps.

quote:

---

Just don't sell your CDs once you have everything ripped. I started to do that a couple of years ago, felt really bad, and bought them all back.

---

Just thought knowing that might be helpful here in this particular situation.

Good day to you!

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeterK:
Man, Jeron.... that Dallas Cowboy win last night was something else, but daaang, what an effect its had on you!

---

1.) Thats an opinion of whether it is stealing, not a fact. There's no "technically" about it..it's either stealing or it isn't, and in my opinion it isn't. Why is your opinion more valid than mine? When you establish a definition of what stealing is, is recording shows off television "stealing"?...do you feel bad if you do not purge that data after you view it as well? Even if we can say that it is "stealing", I do not see how that proves that it is unethical. Just because something is illegal, that makes it immoral?

2.) Jeron....the moral high ground? Get off your soapbox already.

Technically, it would be stealing. You are making a purchase, copying it, and then selling and or returning the product and getting a profit for yourself, yes that would be considered stealing.

Your stealing TV shows comment makes no sense. Since people PAY for cable, or DirecTV, or Dish, you ARE paying for the service. My TiVo records shows and I delete them after, shows I really enjoy like "the West Wing" I buy on DVD.

Stargate might feel bad because he feels like he's stealing. Having a moral center is not a bad thing.

And some people might feel stealing is immoral. Didn't your mother ever tell you not to steal from the candy shelf when you were in the grocery story when you were 4?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crono/Kyp:
[B]Your stealing TV shows comment makes no sense. Since people PAY for cable, or DirecTV, or Dish, you ARE paying for the service. My TiVo records shows and I delete them after, shows I really enjoy like "the West Wing" I buy on DVD.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Cid:
You wouldn't happen to be using that copying device to skip the ads that pay for the programming, would you? What to guess what the copyright holders think about that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeron:
When I fast forward through commercials on Tivo, I still see what the commercial is and what's being advertised.

---

Wow, you're some kind of FF commercial watching genius. I only notice whether there are babes involved. And usually I don't stop to ogle.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeron:

Also, the Tivo already "watched" it for me. Since when did the cable company give you a checklist you've got to have co-signed everytime you watch an advertisement?

---

Your stealing TV shows comment makes no sense. Since people PAY for cable, or DirecTV, or Dish, you ARE paying for the service. My TiVo records shows and I delete them after, shows I really enjoy like "the West Wing" I buy on DVD. <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't even talking about skipping commercials, some cable channels don't even have commercials...I was trying to show that if you record a show to tape or disc, you didn't purchase the rights to own that VHS or DVD, just because you pay for cable or satellite, does not mean you paid for a copy to watch at your leisure. If you're going to argue fair use...I fail to see how thats any more fair than copying music you legally obtained. You have a tool to preserve that data without spending additional money...seriously though,you're telling me that it's not wrong to keep a TV show, but it is wrong to keep music? How, why, and what is the distinction that you are making between the two? How come, in your mind, paying for cable = gives right to own, but paying for compact disc =/= right to own?

As far as having a moral center being bad, I certainly never said anything of that sort, what I have a problem is his seemingly holier-than-thou attitude towards Aaron who may or may not want to sell his CDs. The fact is, this hobby, and ESPECIALLY this genre, is very expensive and if I'm not going to make back some of the money that goes in to this stuff(How would you ever make a profit off second hand film cds, especially non limited ones?), then I'm never going to be able to afford to buy anything new. The companies already got paid for that CD, if they had their way, used cd sales would not be permissable.

People trade classic sporting events all the time....thats just as illegal too, doesn't mean its unethical.

I'm pretty sure the main reason why used CD services have been so successful these past few years is because of the ipod. If I'm wrong here, I'm sure that Peter will correct me.

As far as "stealing candy from a grocery store", you are using a very faulty analogy as candy is a one time consumed item, my analogy with TV was much more relevant, so I'd rather we stick with that (unless you can think of something better).

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Cid:
You don't have an obligation to watch anything. The question is whether you're "stealing" by making an unauthorized copy for the purpose of skipping the ads that pay for the programming.

---

These devices are sold legally for this purpose, approved by the FCC. Technically, the copy that's being made is authorized for my own personal use, therefore nothing is being stolen. I am free to fast forward straight through from beginning to end, if I so desire. Owners of said devices pay a premium to partake in this service. So your point is what?

quote:

---

Originally posted by tjguitar:
2.) Jeron....the moral high ground? Get off your soapbox already.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeron:
Technically, the copy that's being made is authorized for my own personal use, therefore nothing is being stolen.

---

That is shaky reasoning. A major factor that courts use to decide whether an unauthorized copy is "fair use" is whether it deprives the copyright holder of revenue. In this case, it's pretty clear that the copies are reducing advertising revenue (and probably DVD sales as well).

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Cid:
That is shaky reasoning. A major factor that courts use to decide whether an unauthorized copy is "fair use" is whether it deprives the copyright holder of revenue. In this case, it's pretty clear that the copies are reducing advertising revenue (and probably DVD sales as well).

But forget the legalities and just consider that you are deliberately circumventing a system which pays for the programming you enjoy. You're getting a free ride. It's fundamentally the same type of "stealing" as copying a CD.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crono/Kyp:
Aaron! How ya been?

--Brian

---

I been great! I just got a kick-butt new job in Marketing @ Adesa Car Auctions. I might be able to start getting one or two soundtracks a week again lol. I'm sitting here in a giant-sized cubicle listening to World is not Enough and relaxing after an awesome Acura Sale. *Katching!*

Anyways, I been dying to talk film music again so I popped back in the forums. Glad to see some of my old buds are still here!

Even doubly so because I'm not even making the attempt to record the commercials using a Tivo. Holy damn. I should just start uploading CDs for free download off the MM site now... I am already screwed because I'm thinking it would take 20 years of commercial watching to make sure I am paying for what I like to view on TV.

quote:

---

I am already screwed because I'm thinking it would take 20 years of commercial watching to make sure I am paying for what I like to view on TV.

I hope I really misunderstand what I'm reading here...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tjguitar:
I'm not really sure who thats towards, but that wasn't my point. My point is that recording Star Trek Generations off FOX and keeping the VHS (your not given the right to keep it just because it has the FOX logo on the bottom corner of the screen!) is just as much "stealing" as backing up your CDs and keeping your backups is "stealing". Nothing more.<HR size=1>

---

Only blue haired old women who sit around in their night gowns and hair rollers all day possess the right to do this. It's in the legal disclaimer, I swear!

Just sayin'...

Oh, so basically - if you record Generations, keep your VHS, then buy the Sony Blackray 4289343p version in 2020 (Paramount will have died by this point and Sony will have acquired all Paramount properties), you then redeem yourself right? Thus voiding your golden ticket to hell? So basically you *can* steal a television show, just as long as you post an I.O.U. to buy a legit copy in the not-so-distant (or distant) future?

You're doing this with SeaQuest, right Brian?

--Brian

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crono/Kyp:
Well, duh!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeterK:
If I understand what's being said here, I must accept that I am going to hell for going to the bathroom during the commercials of a football game on TV.

---

Media player is a nightmare cos for some reason is moves my mp3-containing folders around after ripping, and iTunes can be a bit if a pain and I'm not sure about the quality.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use CDEX. It's not super user-friendly but you can re-name tracks and files and it'll automaticaly rip tracks and call every file name what you want. So:

Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace [complete] (CD1) - 01 - Twentieth Century Fox Fanfare - John Williams/Alfred Newman

These long file names look cumbersome but it makes for easy scrolling through of a single directory sorted by file name instead of going through the album name row which isn't always reliable if the ID3 tag isn't recorded correctly.

If you make a copy of a CD that you own and then sell the CD, then it is completely illegal.

This is not a matter of opinion (Lawyers and the courts seem pretty clear on it also). Even advocates of the Fair Use doctrine, established after the Sony/Beta case, don’t disagree. You have to own a legal copy of whatever you are backing up for as long as you own the backup.

Frankly, whether or not you can afford to buy new CD’s isn’t the concern of the record labels. They offer a product for sale, that’s it. If you can’t afford it, well that’s a shame. Come back when you have some cash. You wouldn’t rob a bank to buy soundtracks would you? (Yes, it is the same. It is merely a matter of scale.)

Of course if you don’t care about the legality of it, that’s fine. Just don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. You can chop logic as much as want and rationalize however you like that it isn’t really stealing because of, whatever silly argument you chose to use, but it is stealing.

BTW, the TV argument is misleading as the supreme court decision in the betamax case SPECIFICALLY permits time shifting of recorded programming. If you tape it, watch it and erase it, that’s fine. If you tape and keep a permanent copy, it’s not.

(Yes. I have actually consulted lawyers about this very point. It is stealing.)

(PS. Please note that I am not taking about ethics here about legality.)

THAT WAS MY POINT. IF YOU DON'T ERASE YOUR TAPES AFTER YOU RECORD SOMETHING AND WATCH IT ONCE, YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING. Am I typing to a wall here? Seriously.

Again, jsut because sometihng is illegal, doesn't mean that it is unethical.

Anyway, I disagree with you and this is why:

You said:

"
If you make a copy of a CD that you own for personal use that is completely legal.

If you make a copy of a CD that you own and then sell the CD, then it is completely illegal."

You are basically saying that one CAN make a copy for personal use....but then when they sell the orginal, the backup wasn't made for personal use, when it in fact was. The fact is, the copy was made legally.

quote:

---

Originally posted by tjguitar:
You are basically saying that one CAN make a copy for personal use....but then when they sell the orginal, the backup wasn't made for personal use, when it in fact was. The fact is, the copy was made legally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeron:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by tjguitar:
[b]You are basically saying that one CAN make a copy for personal use....but then when they sell the orginal, the backup wasn't made for personal use, when it in fact was. The fact is, the copy was made legally.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the backup is rendered illegal once you no longer possess license of ownership of the original from which the backup was made. At that point, your backup no longer serves as a backup, but as a copy. A copy is illegal when you don't own the original. A backup is legal when it indeed a backup of something currently in your possession.[/B]

---

Ah crap, you beat me to saying this... But that's also where the ethicality (is that even a word) comes in also. How can you not see how buying something and then using that for profit after you copied it is unethical? It's very simple, it doesn't take much thought. IF you back something up, super! You have the original. But if you buy something only to copy it and resale it, that's basically stealing and how is stealing ethical? Come on now...

You haven't proven any of those things, you've simply asserting them.

I guess you people also would throw any photo copies you made out of an encyclopedia if you got rid of the encyclopedia. And you'd feel bad about copying pages out of a book at the library.

Once again, selling a used CD very rarely will get you any sort of profit, most of the time I end up selling for much less than I bought it for...so I don't know how you are using the word "profit"...and what if you give it away for free? Then it becomes okay in your opinion? Weird stuff. Show me how buying something for $20 and making a copy (which is worth a big fat $0) and selling the original for $10 is a Profit. That looks like -$10 to me, not a profit.

As for when stealing is ethical? Hello, I already gave example of stealing car keys from a drunk person.

Do we need to go back to Philosophy 101 and establish a definition of ethics here? I mean, come on.

I knew a dude who photocopied an entire text book for however much it costs to use a photocopy machine. Is that illegal?? Sure is. Do I think thats unethical? Hell no. Dude saved crapload of money for a book he'd only need for 3 months. To me, I prefer having bound books, cause flipping through a binder just isn't as convenient, but **** , if you want to save money that way, go for it.

In the words of Jesse Ventura and Bobby Heenan "It ain't cheating, if you don't get caught"

I think most of you don't really get what I do, I don't buy CDs for the purpose of making a copy and selling it...but there comes a time when you no longer want something, and you get rid of it, and you may or may not remember to delete your files. Point is, I don't feel compelled to delete files just because I got rid of a CD. Some of you apparently do, thats cool.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>At that point, your backup no longer serves as a backup, but as a copy. A copy is illegal when you don't own the original. <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't change the fact that it was made legally. What if the original is simply misplaced?

quote:

---

Originally posted by MWRuger:
Frankly, whether or not you can afford to buy new CD’s isn’t the concern of the record labels. They offer a product for sale, that’s it. If you can’t afford it, well that’s a shame. Come back when you have some cash. You wouldn’t rob a bank to buy soundtracks would you? (Yes, it is the same. It is merely a matter of scale.)

---

Actually it is different, both legally and morally. In the hypothetical scenario you describe (literally can't afford it), piracy is an unambiguous good - it helps you and hurts no-one. That's not the case with bank robbery.

quote:

---

Originally posted by tjguitar:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>

Once again, selling a used CD very rarely will get you any sort of profit, most of the time I end up selling for much less than I bought it for...so I don't know how you are using the word "profit"...and what if you give it away for free? Then it becomes okay in your opinion? Weird stuff. Show me how buying something for $20 and making a copy (which is worth a big fat $0) and selling the original for $10 is a Profit. That looks like -$10 to me, not a profit.

I think most of you don't really get what I do, I don't buy CDs for the purpose of making a copy and selling it...but there comes a time when you no longer want something, and you get rid of it, and you may or may not remember to delete your files. Point is, I don't feel compelled to delete files just because I got rid of a CD. Some of you apparently do, thats cool.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>At that point, your backup no longer serves as a backup, but as a copy. A copy is illegal when you don't own the original. <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't change the fact that it was made legally. What if the original is simply misplaced?

[Message edited by tjguitar on 10-09-2007]

---

Agreed. There have been many times where I've copied my CDs (CDs I bought years ago) and decided that I didn't need some of them any longer or decided that I don't like the entire album any more, only a few songs. So I made a copy of it or just copied the songs I really liked and resold the album back to the record store - for one fifth of what I originally paid. That's not a profit under any definition I know of and why should I give something I paid for away for free or throw it out just to keep the copy? That's irrational. And as far illegalities are concerned, like someone said further up, if I paid through the nose for my CD collection - and I have - I'm not losing any sleep over making a copy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Cid:
In the hypothetical scenario you describe (literally can't afford it), piracy is an unambiguous good - it helps you and hurts no-one.

---

Now see that's interesting. One of the basic tenets of economics goes something like this:
if you can increase one person's utility, without reducing any one else's, society's overall utility has increased; therefore society is better off.

So...
- downloading a CD you would have otherwise bought: evil: you are deacreasing the artist's utility
- downloading a CD you wouldn't have bought anyway: good: increases social utility

So if we take that second part to the extreme, for someone who doesn't have the internet, a person could buy a CD, copy it, return it for a full refund. They're not huring anyone. Just helping themself.