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So if we take that second part to the extreme, for someone who doesn't have the internet, a person could buy a CD, copy it, return it for a full refund. They're not huring anyone. Just helping themself.

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You usually can't do that though, once its open, they won't take it back unless its defective (for obvious reasons).

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Now it's probably unethical to keep those copies once you consciously aknowledge that you no longer own the originals, but on the other hand, once the copies have been made...

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I don't know that its unethical. What criteria are we using to judge whether its ethical or not?

Anyway, I have 67.3 Gigs, 14,773 files of "Soundtracks" that doesn't even include classical, jazz, or rock/pop.

No way would I have the shelf space to store that stuff. Of course I could probably go through and delete a whole bunch of stuff I never listen to anymore, but I'm lazy.

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Originally posted by vdemona:
Agreed. There have been many times where I've copied my CDs (CDs I bought years ago) and decided that I didn't need some of them any longer or decided that I don't like the entire album any more, only a few songs. So I made a copy of it or just copied the songs I really liked and resold the album back to the record store - for one fifth of what I originally paid. That's not a profit under any definition I know of and why should I give something I paid for away for free or throw it out just to keep the copy? That's irrational. And as far illegalities are concerned, like someone said further up, if I paid through the nose for my CD collection - and I have - I'm not losing any sleep over making a copy.

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Sure, intent is important. But it's hard to prove either way. You can't prove that you made those copies legally and they can't prove you didn't.

But lucky for them they don't have to prove intent. All they have to do is ask you to produce the originals. One or two might be overlooked, but a couple of hundred?

I doubt very seriously that a federal marshal is going to show up at someone's house and do an audit of your CD's but I suspect many of us would have some explaining to do if the letter of the law was enforced.

Cuz' all those boots we own? Illegal.
CD-R's of OOP limited editions? Illegal.
Vinyl Transfers of LPs we disposed of? Illegal.

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Originally posted by El Cid:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by MWRuger:
[b]Frankly, whether or not you can afford to buy new CD’s isn’t the concern of the record labels. They offer a product for sale, that’s it. If you can’t afford it, well that’s a shame. Come back when you have some cash. You wouldn’t rob a bank to buy soundtracks would you? (Yes, it is the same. It is merely a matter of scale.)<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it is different, both legally and morally. In the hypothetical scenario you describe (literally can't afford it), piracy is an unambiguous good - it helps you and hurts no-one. That's not the case with bank robbery.

In real life, the situation is not so black and white. What we can "afford" is not an objective fact but a question of spending priorities.[/B]

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
Cuz' all those boots we own? Illegal.

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Hey, hey, hey! I'm in Canada. Winter is rough up here. Ya gotta wear boots when there's 2 feet of snow out there. And I bought mine at Sears, not some vendor on a sidewalk. You sayin' Sears sells illegal merchandise?

Like nobody here has free porn and movies on here. And technically, You-Tube movie clips are illegal also. I'm amazed the studios haven't shut that site down yet.

So who are you kidding? EVERYBODY who owns a computer is basically a hipocrite. Otherwise why would we need CD & DVD writers.

Personal use.. PUULLLEASE!!!

*Coughs* Hypocrites! *Cough*

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Originally posted by AaronR1074:
OK PeterK's gonna have me banned from the site now lol

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Originally posted by AaronR1074:
Come on guys...
Since when did ANYBODY on this site become anti-piracy FFS

Like nobody here has free porn and movies on here. And technically, You-Tube movie clips are illegal also. I'm amazed the studios haven't shut that site down yet.

So who are you kidding? EVERYBODY who owns a computer is basically a hipocrite. Otherwise why would we need CD & DVD writers.

Personal use.. PUULLLEASE!!!

*Coughs* Hypocrites! *Cough*

OK PeterK's gonna have me banned from the site now lol

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I don't have a problem with it except when people try to argue that it really is okay and not illegal. That is hypocritical.

I have tons of illegal stuff. I just dont try and rationalize my actions. I have been a pirate since the old Apple II days.

Is there a reason you are using "okay" and "legal" as synonyms?

I'm not really trying to show that its not illegal, I was just pointing out that many things we take for granted (like taping TV shows) are just as illegal, and that the profit argument (to argue that its unethical) is not a very good one because you rarely, if ever, are going to make a profit on selling used CDs (We're talking as an individual, not a business, obviously places like wherehouse and secondspin live off buying second hand stuff for cheap and selling it for higher prices). The fact is you would be lucky to recoup 50% of the costs, and that would be on a good day. In most cases, its 20%-25% and that goes for DVDs too. Now if you originally bought the CD used, youm ight be able to make a higher percentage of what you spent on it, but it still wouldn't be very likely, considering if you could find something for very cheap, the value is probably lower to begin with.)

Oh yeah...What I object to is that a legally-created backup automatically becomses 'illegal' because you are no longer in posession of the original.

Because there are any number of scenarios (lost in a move, burned in a fire, damaged by drunk folk playing frisbee)...and you cannot show that any of these things happened. Unless you keep the damaged copy, which seems kind of silly. People will say that your back up becomes the original in these scenarios...but I don't buy that, and you certainly can't prove that, and if that *was* a good argument, it would be easily fabricateable.

When you buy a CD you are acquiring the right to listen to the music whenever and wherever you like. That’s it. It’s not an investment, it’s entertainment.

Using your argument, you sell the CD and retain all the rights you would have had with a legally purchased CD. So even if you sold it for 1 cent you are making a profit (not over what you paid in money initially) because you retain all the benefits of a legally bought copy. Legally you no longer have a right to access those recordings. At all.

What I don’t like about your argument is that you are saying that it isn’t stealing and by every definition of law it is. That is what I am not “okay” about. I’m sorry that you don’t like it when your legal copies become illegal.

As I said above, a few errant copies one could overlook but not hundreds. But let’s take your example of a fire destroying a collection for which you kept backups. First, would you file an insurance claim on the lost CD’s? If so, then the expectation is that you would replace them once again with legal, bought copies. If you didn’t file a claim and just kept your backups, then while technically illegal as long as you could prove that the fire destroyed the originals I doubt anyone would bother with prosecution.

Of course, if you really have sold all the CD’s you have backed up and you have a fire you can’t file any claim at all on the lost CDs because that would be fraud.

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
Most people take responsibility for their actions, even if they are drunk.

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Responsibility for their actions, eh?

Peter, I'm suing your store because I stumbled and fell while walking down the stairs, shoelaces undone, with a coffee in the left hand, and my laptop in the right hand trying to read this thread.

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So even if you sold it for 1 cent you are making a profit (not over what you paid in money initially) because you retain all the benefits of a legally bought copy. Legally you no longer have a right to access those recordings. At all.

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
Right. Becasue the reason we buy CD's is because of the case and the liner notes that we MAY read once.

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Using yourself as an example the only reason you would make a copy is so you can enjoy the music after you have sold your original CD.

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Rock CD's include Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 1st Album and Deja-Vu, Cream's Digitaly Remastered 2CD release of Wheels of Fire, the Clapton featured 2CD Remastered release of Blind Faith (Features hits like Can't Find my way Home & Presence of the Lord), Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and the 2CD greatest Hits entitled Echoes, Buckcherry's cd called 15 which includes the amazing head bobbin' tunes Crazy B*tch and Everything, and Clannad's award-winning Lore

Wow! That's a ton of work!