Seems that early rumors are coming for the 7th film in this insanely popular series.

But I'm sure if he wanted to, he could.

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Originally posted by Crono/Kyp:
Aww, thanks for the thought Kev

--Brian

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When it comes to the music, "tell Brian first."

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Originally posted by SpoilerOrange:
It's WAY to early to know for sure. He still has to send in his demo tape and see if the eventual director would even like to hire him.

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Williams? A demo tape?

Not to speak impieties here, but hasn't it ever occured to anyone that there's a possibility that the Harry Potter producers don't want to pay what Williams might be asking? I mean, the guy has got to be the highest paid composer in the business. To think money is never involved in who scores what film is kind of naive. Look, does anyone really believe that Mike Newell or David Yates got paid as much to direct as Chris Columbus? Likewise does anyone believe that Pat Doyle or Nick Hooper got paid as much as Williams? It's all about the bottom line.

And indeed why should the producers shell out big bucks for Williams when other composers who probably aren't so far up the A-list, have proven they can write competent scores and the films do just as well, if not make even more money than the earlier films?

The producers took a chance on a non Williams composer, the 4th film did fabulous at the box office anyway - and mostly without Williams' themes too, if I recall rightly. Perhaps this reassured the producers that they could afford not to hire Williams. (Was Williams' schedule full for Harry Potter 5? I don't recall hearing so.)

I watched "Tombstone" this past weekend and Bruce's music is just powerhouse. He'd do a fantastic job with Potter.

Arnold would be sick too. And of course, Jeremy would be fantastic and a well deserved entry given what he did with the EA series.

Personally, I'd also not mind hearing Doyle come back.

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He said with confidence that he thinks he will be back for the last and then added that he hopes he is!

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became this (at AICN):

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John Williams told fans that he will be returning for DEATHLY HALLOWS at a lecture in the Berkshire Museum.

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That's quite a leap from "thinks" and "hopes" to "will be." But people will hear what they want to hear, I guess.

(Where did it say he needed to submit a demo tape?!)

I have to say I honestly don't care very much for any of the Potter films, it's not my thing. I'm glad other composers got the chance, and wouldn't mind if Williams came back, if only because it would make so many fans very happy. I just have been bemused by the way some people assume that Williams would always be a director's first choice.

I also think the reason why Williams wasn't on HP 4 is slightly more complex than simply "He couldn't fit it in his schedule." My impression was that Williams was available, but couldn't be available precisely WHEN Newell wanted him to start (which was during filming - unusually early), and that perhaps had something to do with why Williams didn't wind up doing the film in the end.

I mean, this doesn't sound like a director who was forced to go with his second choice (http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=55888):

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Q: Why did you replace John Williams with another composer - Patrick Doyle?

A: I wanted a different composer because in the film there was a tremendous amount of music that the actors had to work with, dancing music, walking music, there's lots and lots of music. So it's very difficult for me to work with a composer who is 6,000 miles away. And John Williams lives in Los Angeles, so I needed somebody who was right there. And I've worked with Pat, Patrick Doyle, who is a great composer, twice before, also on Donnie Brasco and he is a great man, to work with, he gives you a lot.

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I mean, the guy has got to be the highest paid composer in the business.

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That would be Hans Zimmer. At least that's what I heard.

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But anyway, I don't want Arnold or Broughton to impose their sound onto Harry Potter, which I'm sure they would do, and add hedwig's Theme as an excuse, I want Williams, or whoever, to write Harry Potter music that sounds like Harry Potter.

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Impose? Bruce Broughton would probably be the best thing to happen to Potter since, well, prior to Williams writing his first score. David Arnold would write nothing short of a fantastic score himself. Those two composers are very strong in their melodic writing. Don't get me wrong, I love what John Williams did in the first three films... some great stuff there. But I'd be willing to give it all up to see what Bruce might have done.

I wouldn't have picked Pat Doyle or Nick Hooper -- I think they did serviceable jobs, but I wouldn't use those scores as a level of entry for Bruce Broughton or David Arnold. They are just as capable as Maestro Williams. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, John Williams has been caught saying once or twice that Bruce Broughton is the most talented composer in the industry.

The great thing about this hypothetical, is that had we the ability to turn back the clock and set things straight w/ Bruce in the captain's chair, everyone would be none the wiser. Bruce would undoubtedly do an amazing job, and the world would be that much richer w/ work from a composer that tragically has not been awarded a big film in far too long. My Williams collection however could stand a choice diet.

Go suck on that for awhile.

--Brian

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from a composer that tragically has not been awarded a big film in far too long

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The thing is, composers don't get "awarded" projects. They primarily get projects either because they're (A) "hot" (have scored big blockbusters, have won Oscars, etc) and/or (B) they have a connection (with the producer, director, or the director's best friend's aunt). It helps, of course, if they're talented. I keep seeing Broughton's name brought up by fans -- and why not, since he's a fantastic composer -- but what has he done lately that fits into category (A)? And how's his networking lately?

In hindsight there was little chance that Doyle wasn't eventually going to score a Potter film if they felt free to not use Williams: look at who was directing the movies (Cuaron, Newell, both of whom had successfully worked with Doyle before); and not only that, the production duties for the Potter films shifted away from Hollywood to Britain and to... David Barron, none other than the producer of most of Kenneth Branagh's films. Doyle was well known to these people as a quality composer and someone they could work with.

It is frustrating that Broughton's talent is going unused, but the reality is that (as Elmer Bernstein used to say) it's all about being on people's minds. Being talented is very important, but networking and being "out there" is key.

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Impose? Bruce Broughton would probably be the best thing to happen to Potter since, well, prior to Williams writing his first score. David Arnold would write nothing short of a fantastic score himself. Those two composers are very strong in their melodic writing.

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Yes, no doubt they both have great melodic skills. So does Doyle. But a strong theme doesn't automatically make a strong Harry Potter score. You need to completely absorb the flair of the film and not just write a score in your normal, well-known fashion.

That's what Doyle did, and I doubt Arnold or Broughton would do something else.

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Williams nailed the Potter sound.

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That's an odd statement. So what was the Potter sound before Williams "nailed" it?

To me, Williams sounded like HE was doing his "Williams thing" on these films. (Yes, believe it or not - Williams has a sound which he keeps repeating over and over, too, regardless of film.) But your mileage may vary.

I think the whole Potter series phenomenon is interesting, because usually when Williams is not available, they go with someone who just emulates him. They didn't do that with the 4th film, they went with someone who actually has a very strong style of his own, and a very non-Williams approach at that. But that adventurousness, I think, really began when they brought Cuaron on for the third picture instead of just some Chris Columbus protege.

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That's an odd statement. So what was the Potter sound before Williams "nailed" it?

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Exactly. What was the Harry Potter sound before Williams? He created it. He created an entire world of sounds and textures.
In my book, someone still has to come up with a specific Potter sound that isn't Williams'.

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To me, Williams sounded like HE was doing his "Williams thing" on these films. (Yes, believe it or not - Williams has a sound which he keeps repeating over and over, too, regardless of film.) But your mileage may vary.

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That's not quite right. What would you call that "Williams thing"? Writing strong and harmonically complex themes?
Yes, Williams has a style and sound. Any given composer has. The difference is that Williams isn't nearly as derivative as other current or past composers are/were.
And there's a tremendous difference between maintaining a writing style and adapting it to any given film, and maintaining a writing style and sound, regardless of the film.

Which, in one form or another, we had already in scores like The Last Crusade, Home Alone, Hook or the Star Wars prequels. Therefore, he didn't create "an entire world" that's specific to the Potter series. Unlike Howard Shore did for LotR.

In my book, someone still has to come up with a specific Potter sound that isn't Williams'.

Doyle did.

That's not quite right. What would you call that "Williams thing"? Writing strong and harmonically complex themes?

In recent years and apart from exceptions such as A.I. or Memoirs of a Geisha, you can immediately tell it's a Williams score by its orchestration. Eight-note runs up and down the scale, twittering woodwinds, a certain spacing of brass etc. Again, it's all part of his repertoire that he's used again and again. It's not specific enough for the Potter scores. And even some of his secondary themes (such as Fawkes' Theme, which is great) can be pinpointed as exactly that...a Williams secondary theme.

Yes, Williams has a style and sound. Any given composer has. The difference is that Williams isn't nearly as derivative as other current or past composers are/were.

He's been quite on autopilot from 2000 to about 2004. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone and, by extension, The Chamber of Secrets are, apart from their beautiful themes, run-of-the-mill Williams scores. I can't remember when I last listened to them in their entirety.

And there's a tremendous difference between maintaining a writing style and adapting it to any given film, and maintaining a writing style and sound, regardless of the film.

Indeed. The latter would describe what Zimmer's been doing the last few years.

In the liner notes to Munich (or War of The Worlds), Steven Spielberg writes that John Williams is a master of disguise. And while a trained ear can of course identify whether any given score is by Williams, that statement stands correct.

But it doesn't change that the Potter sound is primarily a John Williams sound. He doesn't inhabit the Potter world, per se, but rather makes it a part of his own. Not the approach I tend to give a big plus for, not when I've heard it so often before.

Pieces like A Window To The Past, Hagrid The Professor or Secrets Of The Castle could never play in another movie but Prisoner Of Azkaban, whereas cues like Golden Egg, The Maze or Death Of Cedric are generic enough that they could play in any number of films.

And that, Georg, is nonsense. Biased nonsense at that. You cite PoA a lot, but that score has not a lot in common with the first two, which you say cemented the Potter sound. Doesn't make much sense.

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Exactly. What was the Harry Potter sound before Williams? He created it. He created an entire world of sounds and textures.
In my book, someone still has to come up with a specific Potter sound that isn't Williams'.

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But that's impossible, by your definition, because "Williams created the Potter sound" and nobody else but Williams can do it, unless they... copy Williams.

Which Doyle would never do. So I think there isn't any further one can go in rational discussion here.

Here's something to chew on: Has John Williams ever taken over a popular film series and succeeded in making the series "his own"? I can't think of any examples.

Has Williams ever even had to confront the legacy of other great composers directly? You know, doing a score for a remake of a classic film that had a classic score? Doyle has taken this challenge on numerous times -- sometimes with spectacular results, sometimes with less successful results, but always in a dramatically different style than the original version. He's no one's cookie cutter.

Williams, on the other hand, seems much harder to assess, mainly because the only point of reference is usually himself. It's one thing to use your point of reference as the successful franchises that Williams helped *start* (Superman, Raiders, Star Wars, Harry Potter etc) and then dismiss composers who come after, but that seems a kind of easy sophistry.

BTW, I happen to disagree with Christian's assessment of Williams "being on autopilot" - I happen to think his best work has been his most recent, for the most part.

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And while a trained ear can of course identify whether any given score is by Williams, that statement stands correct.

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No, actually you don't need "a trained ear," you just need to have listened to Williams' scores for 25 years or more. Williams really isn't much of a chameleon; I always know when something is by him.

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BTW, I happen to disagree with Christian's assessment of Williams "being on autopilot" - I happen to think his best work has been his most recent, for the most part.

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Well, I'm not really surprised. I mentioned some exceptions and speak only of about five years. Let's see:

The Patriot...brassy, very run-of-the-mill

A.I. One exception, and absolutely top-drawer Williams.

The Sorcerer's Stone...run-of-the-mill Williams fantasy score, with one outstanding track (Hedwig's Theme).

Attack of the Clones...very good, exceptional theme, but not much new ground (although understandable).

Minority Report...I still don't get why so many people find this score to be so great.

Catch Me If You Can...kind of an extension of Williams 60s jazz sound. The non-jazzy score is quite mundane, at least in my ears.

The Chamber of Secrets...see Sorcerer's Stone.

The Prisoner of Azkaban...another exception, because it quite deviates from the usual Williams fantasy sound.

The Terminal...blech.

Revenge of the Sith...more or less like Attack of the Clones, but far more colourful. Too many missed opportunities, however, to be considered a stand-out in Williams career.

Memoirs of a Geisha...the third exception, and very possibly his best score since Schindler's List.

Munich...one absolute stand-out (A Prayer for Peace), but both the ethnic and suspense music left me cold.

War of the World...loud and brassy Williams without the benfit of his great themes.

Thirteen scores, only three of which I consider classics. Mind, in no way do I think they are bad music or anything, but where I'm concerned, too much of it has been done by Williams before (sometimes better) than to be considered among his best works.

I'd say that Williams rarely does venture out too far of his "comfort zone". When he does, the results are groundbreaking.

Do I wish that he return for HP7? Hmmm...I have at least three composer I'd rather see attached to the movie, but I will not have a problem with Williams closing the series. No problem at all.

I'm just getting riled when people blame Doyle for not being Williams...I can embrace both styles. However, what I prefer in the end is my call, and mine alone.

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War of the World...loud and brassy Williams without the benfit of his great themes.

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WOTW wasn't a very good movie. I suppose Williams' score did the job... but the movie just was a horribly flimsy parable ostensibly about 9/11. I don't know what's happened to Spielberg. He hasn't made a decent movie since SCHINDLER'S LIST.

I actually, um, liked THE PATRIOT, sorta. I can see where some people found it not very challenging, but I enjoy it when it comes up on my random playlist.

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But that's impossible, by your definition, because "Williams created the Potter sound" and nobody else but Williams can do it, unless they... copy Williams.

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That is unfortunate, but correct.

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Which Doyle would never do. So I think there isn't any further one can go in rational discussion here.

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Of course Doyle wouldn't do copy Williams. No composer of reasonable success would.
And that's the unfortunate position Williams' followers are in.
Which prompts the question: what is more important, the film or the success of your music?
I think the musical continuity should be held higher than monetary reasons or whether any given director had worked with some composer before. What use is a nice working relationship when the music itself turns out to be crap? I have OotP in mind, although I wouldn't call its music crap.

And of course, when a new composer enters the series, he won't copy Williams, but for continuity's sake, he certainly should. The composer of course is not to blame, but the executives and the director are.
But the very least you should do is create yor own Harry Potter sound and incorporate Williams' sound to an appropriate extent. Shouldn't a composer have that personal greatness? John Ottman had it for Superman Returns, regardless of the horrific film.

I'm not blaming Patrick Doyle for not copying John Williams, I'm blaming him for completely, utterly ignoring everything that made the previous scores special, and at the same time he managed to create a score that oozes orchestral and thematic dullness.

Here's

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something to chew on: Has John Williams ever taken over a popular film series and succeeded in making the series "his own"? I can't think of any examples.

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Of course not. Over the course of his carreer, Williams always scored at least the first movie of a series. And he continues to do so. And always composers who follow him struggle with improving his initial concept.

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Originally posted by Ellen B Edgerton:
It is frustrating that Broughton's talent is going unused, but the reality is that (as Elmer Bernstein used to say) it's all about being on people's minds. Being talented is very important, but networking and being "out there" is key.

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There's some validity there, though it's not really the crux of what I was getting at. More like a drastic deviation, not really having much to do with the hypothetical of why I believe Bruce would have been a tremendous choice to author the HP scores from the beginning.

But I'll address this subject: it's unfortunate, yes, b/c these days I think people just don't know who Bruce Broughton is, or that he exists. Those that do simply aren't making films often enough to keep him regularly employed. I actually am fortunate in that I can consider Bruce a friend of mine, so I'm a bit biased in that I do hurt to hear him write more new music that gets out in front of the masses. He's a real magician, not only in his melodic sensibilities, but also as an amazing technician along with his ability to connect with the picture and elevate it.

It's important to realize that yes, a lot of energy does go into networking and staying "current" in people's minds. For a lot of people it's a game that simply is not worth playing, which I can empathize with. At some point you've got to realize what makes you happy in life -- and in the end, even the composers, directors, producers that we admire are simply people with very similar day to day problems and emotions as the rest of us. Sometimes they are on a larger scale, sometimes not. Despite your talent, playing "the game" to stay in it, might not be worth it. After all, your work should speak for itself w/o all of the dog and pony showcasing.

That said, it would have taken one bright decision over at Warner Bros. to completely turn that around for Broughton, or David Arnold, Jeremy Soule, whoever. Hell, Michael Kamen, if he was still around, would have done a terrific job. John Williams was the obvious choice. A monkey would have made the same decision. It's not always about networking. Sometimes the worst personalities in the industry get the big jobs, and it's simply a potluck. Happens all the time. That's not to say Williams is a bad personality, but I stand by what I say.

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I think the musical continuity should be held higher than monetary reasons or whether any given director had worked with some composer before.

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Then you must think that the director-composer relationship is unimportant, which is odd, considering all those Spielberg-Williams films that helped make Williams into a household name...

By the way, what do you think of Arnold taking over the Bond series? (Or of non-Barry composers used, such as Hamlisch?) By your standards, it would seem that the Bond series must be hopelessly trashed because "musical continuity" was not preserved.

Jeron: I fear my post about networking may have seemed dismissive of Broughton - that was definitely not my intention - certainly not when many composers I like are not exactly at Hollywood's center. But that's what fans and champions of composers are for - to carry the torch!

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I've enjoyed the discussion on Williams however -- and I have enjoyed Williams scores, particularly CoS and PoA, though it's been interesting seeing Ellen and Christian go back and forth, with the intermittent grate from Georg. Good times!!

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I haven't even started yet...

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Originally posted by Ellen B Edgerton:
By the way, what do you think of Arnold taking over the Bond series? (Or of non-Barry composers used, such as Hamlisch?) By your standards, it would seem that the Bond series must be hopelessly trashed because "musical continuity" was not preserved.

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I think David Arnold has re-imbued the 007 films with more than enough John Barry to swing the James Bond franchise (musically) back around from the far side of the moon. We can easily forget the films that Hamlisch, Conti, and Martin scored. Mind you all of their scores worked, but much like Serra's, didn't add much to the collective strength of what Barry established early on.

Serra's score can't be bashed too much as he was reintroducing a new version of 007 and just as Pierce was still relatively tight in the role first time out, so was the score and choice of direction. If anything dates GoldenEye, it's certainly Serra's score, as the story goes with Hamlisch, Conti, and Martin.

If anything makes the films after GoldenEye timeless, it's Arnold's sensibilities -- more so in TND and CR than TWINE and DAD, but hey - it was a fun ride seeing all the directions Arnold could go in a playground many composers would love to explore. And Kamen's contribution goes without saying; just as timeless, genuine, and engaging as anything Barry or Arnold could ever do.

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And Kamen's contribution goes without saying; just as timeless, genuine, and engaging as anything Barry or Arnold could ever do.

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Originally posted by Christian Kühn:
I haven't even started yet...

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