Intrada's 1500 unit Delerue score is still available after two weeks. A Varese 1000 unit Delerue CD sold out in 14 hours a year and a half ago.

East of Eden, 1000 copies. Still around after a month.

Max Dugan, 1200 copies. Still around after six weeks.

Where are all the buyers?

Have the limited editions finally killed off that promising group of collectors who don't mind buying regular priced non-limited editions, but have been discouraged by what the limited edition forces them to accept if they want to remain true collectors?

Or is the market now simply just flooded with limited editions and everything else?

I find the new trend enlightening. I'm getting the feeling that the limited edition craze is near over.... which means that these CDs won't sell out immediately, but one day their listings will quietly "disappear" after a while (for example, Broughton's "Eloise" has only 75 copies left, which has been this way for 2-3 months...). Hopefully the insanity is gone now and we can resume collecting with calmness. Hopefully this will do away with all those novice sellers who want to make $50 per CD as well.

Speaking of, I haven't looked at eBay in a long time... I can imagine there are a lot of limited editions selling for regular prices.

Surely some of it comes from some labels' obviously-cynical attempts to test the "you'll sell out of anything if you limit it to 1,000" theory, which has now certainly been disproved.

There have been several other 1000 issue cd's throughout the years which took a long time to sell. Witness Perseverances' 4 year old Prince Valiant score which only recently sold out. Intrada's brilliant releases of Major Dundee and Sparticus are limited to 1000 and still have not sold out.

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I love that we get all this music presented to us, but I hate that I am forced by way of indirect blackmail into buying it the moment it's announced, even if my interest is somewhat passing.

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I guess that depends on if you want to support the companies or not...If anything, the limited crap just promotes more piracy out of people, because once they're gone, people will only be able to get them by getting copies from their friends.

Unless your a completist, who must have the pretty artwork, and at times informative notes, that is.

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Originally posted by Southall:
I agree. It is so disheartening that the only way to get this music out is to do it in a way which will prevent future generations (and much of this generation, in many cases) from ever hearing it.

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To a certain extent I agree... but consider this. By releasing 1000 copies of the music, the chance of it being digitally preserved intact for future generations just increased significantly.

What I like about the limited stuff, is if I don't like it, I can pretty much make the $$ I spent (or most of it) back selling it second-hand, so its easier to take a risk than say those expensive LOTR box sets, which you couldn't make your $$ back second-hand cause they are still in print.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem there is that it doesn't work for anal-retentives like me who can't stand getting rid of CDs that they hate (for no logical reason). Hence such dreck as Judgement Night sitting on my CD shelf, even though I'm sure I could make my money back if I tried to sell it.

As for "supporting the labels", this is a concept I don't really buy into. I've seen many people say that they buy CDs from people like FSM and Intrada that they have no interest in, just to give them funds to pursue other projects down the line - that's noble of them, but it's a pretty wild concept for me. When the labels start supporting their customers, by cutting out the bulk buying by speculators, then I might give it a bit more credence. (FSM doesn't count here - they produce everything in quantities of 3,000 - even stuff which is likely to sell in low quantities - they're not playing the same game as the rest.)

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Southall:
[b]I agree. It is so disheartening that the only way to get this music out is to do it in a way which will prevent future generations (and much of this generation, in many cases) from ever hearing it.
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

To a certain extent I agree... but consider this. By releasing 1000 copies of the music, the chance of it being digitally preserved intact for future generations just increased significantly.

[/B]

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Originally posted by tjguitar:
FSM has released stuff in smaller runs than 3,000. Some of them don't even get as many printed as advertised cause they tanked in sales.

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I thought they'd only done that once (the Gerald Fried set).

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Originally posted by Lancelot:
When it comes to film music CDs, aren't they all, really, limited editions...?

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Originally posted by tjguitar:
I guess that depends on if you want to support the companies or not...

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Well, the cost of individual CDs doesn't seem to phase too many people in the film score world. Like for instance, today when I bitched about the cost of the Mysterious Island "reissue," everybody basically told me I was either an idiot or a hobo over at FSM for expressing my concern over five dollars. Ninety percent of the community seems to be gleeful to see anything released, and at just about any cost. I've never had the "consumerism" bug, so I don't quite get it.

Soundtrack CDs aren't food, water or heat. You don't need them to survive. If an album is priced out of your budget, then so what, complaining about it is simply a waste of energy.

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Originally posted by Hawkeye Ron:
Well, the Varese Club discs are kind of in a league of their own. The popularity and rarity of the first issues from the club (The Burbs, Cherry 2000, etc...) make almost any past, current, or future club release prime ebay bait... regardless of the score or composer. Intrada's releases tend to be from more obscure pictures (Spartacus-Miller, Echo of Thunder, Blizzard, The Conversation, Max Dugan Returns, House of Bamboo, etc...), so it's a bit harder to create a buzz. I'm not saying these aren't good films and scores, but unless they have a well-known composer, a set of 1000 will take longer to sell.

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Originally posted by Dinko:
What if we've run out of interseting releases?

Maybe at this point, most of the interesting scores that could be released have been released. Hence unsellable items listed above or weird leftovers (4CD Karate Kid scores...)

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Most of the stuff I want won't get released, like Back To The Future, or some unreleased Brian Tyler scores. The mostly focus on old stuff (60s-70s)(and even older stuff 30s-50s) that i'm not really interested in.

An in-depth analysis of Intrada limited editions vs. Varese club CDs would be very interesting. Account for things like straight re-issues, expanded releases, year of movie, composer and see if there is a pattern. So far, the only clear pattern is that if Varese limits it to 1000 copies, it will sell out within a week. However, methinks even this won't last forever. Varese started it; I logically think Varese will be the last one to win at it. But I doubt there's enough interest to keep the craze up.

It used to happen that when a Varese CD sold out within 24 hours, MM/Intrada/SAE used to limit sales to one CD per customer, but this isn't exactly the case yet for 84 Charing. This concludes one of two things: 1) MM/Intrada/SAE are now buying a lot more of them, or 2) people simply aren't buying as they once did. My feeling leans more toward the latter, although it's a mix of both.

Dinko's makes a great point about the lack of interesting releases. I often think many releases are somewhere in this "huh?" sort of realm. If not, then it is often the case that the release is somehow redundant, even though it is most welcome (like the East of Eden disc... lots of people who've wanted this music have searched out the Gerhardt suite, and it's great... only hard-core music crazies would find satisfaction in owning the original recording, especially related to East of Eden, as it reached much more of a broad group of television watchers than a niche/genre TV show, the kind that usually have more hardcore fans associated with them).

The labels are banking on the idea there are collectors out there who would buy anything regardless of their true interest in the music or composer. It's a collectible, period. That's all that matters. The 1000 unit to 1500 unit pressings, until now, have shown that was somewhat of a success. But now there are so many releases in this 1000 to 1500 unit range, the true collectors are being weeded out from the wannabe collectors.

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Originally posted by Southall:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by tjguitar:
[b]FSM has released stuff in smaller runs than 3,000. Some of them don't even get as many printed as advertised cause they tanked in sales.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought they'd only done that once (the Gerald Fried set).

I imagine lots of their titles have sold very poorly, so the businessman part of me thinks that printing 3,000 copies of a Bronislau Kaper score for a movie nobody's heard of is not a sane move, but the film music fan part of me is delighted that they didn't play the game, limit it to a thousand and force people into buying it just to avoid missing out in future, at the point when they were actually ready to buy it.[/B]

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Originally posted by sdtom:
My thoughts on this. I think that at least in my opinion there seems to be more limited releases than ever before making it harder to get each and everyone. Add to this the fact that there are so many current soundtrack releases a person has to make 6 figures just to keep up with them! I think the way to make soundtracks limited is really pretty easy. Take the first 500 and number them individually. Then just sell the rest. The person that just wants the recording could care less about the number. The collector who is interested can buy it right away and get a numbered one. The only way I would be interested in a numbered one is if someone can convince me that it truly sounds better!

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Sounds good in theory, but you've once again introduced a limited edition nature to it. There will still be people scrambling to get a numbered edition due to the "collectibility" of it, which is dubious to say the least.

I was in contact with a guy who worked for Universal in the UK who told me that Goldsmith's THE LAST CASTLE, sold less than 700 copies throughout all of Europe. Imagine how fast and how many more copies it would have sold if it was issued as a "limited edition."

The limited edition seems to serve at least two purposes. One is to release more obscure/less popular titles that wouldn't see a successful commercial release. The other is to make it feasible to release a score in a much more complete form that would require exorbitant re-use and/or licensing fees, making the selling price per unit outrageous. A third would be so that the companies releasing these titles can make a decent return on their investment. Let's face it, before the limited edition craze, Intrada's regular releases were practically non-existent. My guess is that they probably sell more units of each title now, and at a much faster pace, in limited editions than they did on most everything they released in non-limited editions. Since it introduces the dreaded sense of urgency - buy it now or miss out forever mentality - it let's them get a return on their money a whole lot faster.

And for something somewhat related... The sudden turnaround by at least one major studio to include isolated scores on DVDs for titles that wouldn't make a commercially viable CD release is certainly a welcome change, and is something I had suggested a long time ago. Do you realize you can purchase a good number of DVDs with isolated scores from years back for less than half the price of the score CD release? DVDs like Hollow Man, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, You've Got Mail, Betlejuice, Hanging Up, and many others. Does it make sense to release, or buy for that matter, an incomplete CD release of a score for $15, or the DVD for less than $7 which gives you the music AND the movie?!?

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Originally posted by majestyx:
Since it introduces the dreaded sense of urgency - buy it now or miss out forever mentality - it let's them get a return on their money a whole lot faster.

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...which will backfire big time if they collectively start doing what Percepto's just done with The Changeling.

While I am glad Changeling will be available again (tired of saying "no" to customers, three years running until now), the move to re-release a limited edition CD seriously dents the urgency card... I am not surprised it has happened, just surprised by the swiftness. So soon! In reality, all of these limited editions CDs will be re-released again... it's only a matter of time before the labels run out of cash flow with the current limited edition game and look for new ways to play it.

For example, a few years of whining for a Capricorn One or Inchon re-release will finally be heard in 2010 and these things will either be re-issued on CD (or SACD, DualDisc, ZingCDm etc and whatever) or turned into a download option. Only a matter of time.

But Peter has indeed hit the nail on the head. Just how limited are these editions and, more importantly, does anyone really even care anymore? Based on the slowdown in sales and much lower prices being fetched on ebay, apparently many collectors are wising up about it.

As for the cost of pressing a CD, sure, the raw materials and pressing cost is actually not very expensive. You can get a 1000 CD run for as low as $1300 delivered, although that's pretty bare bones, and would not be that low for the huge booklets that FSM and Percepto provide. The big cost comes in the actual production (acquiring, transferring, and restoring when needed) of the music - this is usually AT LEAST $5000 just to be allowed access to the master tapes, which translates to a cost of $5 per disc on a 1000 CD run - and in some cases, the biggest expense is negotiating and acquiring licensing for each title. So the bottom line is, how many copies will it take to, at the very least, cover expenses, and how many copies do you believe you can reasonably expect to sell at a certain price and hopefully turn a profit?

It's not as simple as figuring out the per unit cost from a manufacturing standpoint when there are many more factors that most people are unaware of that contribute to the cost of the end product.

Non of us are getting any younger and life is too short as it is. There will come a day when Mr. Fake, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Stromberg, Mr. Townson, Lukas Kendall and everyone else involved will either be too old or tired of all the negative attitudes and finally call it quits.

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Originally posted by sdtom:
How much do you think the cost would drop on 3000 as opposed to 1000. Could you get 3000 for under 3000.00?
tom

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Just last week I was able to get "matilda" from Peter for the standard varese club + 5 bucks price, even tho it's been sold out at @ Varese (and I think the other usual suspects?) for a while now.

i hope this thread ocntinues! some godo stuff mentioned above.

i also think its funny that i thought the complete LOTR stuff would be hard to sell second-hand, too bad for my wallet that I have no intentions of selling mine.....I guess things do change.

The Varese Club 1000 unit release of "In A Shallow Grave":

"The 1000 people lucky enough to add this rare gem to their collection will find themselves returning often to its special beauty. [...] If you're at all intrigued, act fast!"

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Max Dugan, 1200 copies. Still around after six weeks.

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