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The Black Hole is coming... On iTunes @ 128kbps

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Author	Topic: The Black Hole is coming... On iTunes @ 128kbps

jonathan_little Standard Userer	I just saw this over at FSM... The most anticlimatic release ever: The Black Hole's LP program is being released on iTunes from an analog tape source, compressed down to glorious AAC 128kbps sound with digital rights management. (The 8-track of today.) I am a huge fan of this score. It is my "Star Wars." But releasing it exclusively on iTunes, especially 128kbps files?! Oh it's so close but so so far away. Disney, you don't get my money for pulling crap like this. I have spent plenty of money on film score CDs over the years and exactly $0 on online music download purchases. A lossless release might get me to install iTunes, but this is nothing but a tease! [Message edited by jonathan_little on 01-12-2007]
posted 01-12-2007 09:55 PM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	I agree JL. It should be available on CD so that anyone, not just those in the US can enjoy it and so those who care about audio quality can enjoy it as well. I would love to buy this score. But I won't because I don't like the way it is presented. I spend a lot on money on CDs, nearly $4000. I will vote with my dollars and pass. The only way that those who don't support downloading can protest is by not buying the item and letting people (Disney) know why they aren't buying it. BTW, people who can't tell the difference between 128 ACC and a CD really need to listen closer. I can tell the difference on pop CDs. The David Bowie 24-bit remasters sound very different on CD than they do encoded, even at 160 ACC and that’s rock from 35 years ago! (I do have very nice 5.1 speakers for my PC so that may make the difference but a spectrum analyzer clearly reveals the difference anyway). If this is indeed the future of score releases, than I will save a fair amount of money. I can’t in good conscience support the adulteration of standards of audio quality. CD’s may not be perfect but they are fair better than compressed audio. We are cheating ourselves by accepting less. No sale.
posted 01-12-2007 10:38 PM PT (US)

Crono/Kyp Standard Userer	There's not even extra music. One of my favorite Sci-Fi films growing up. Barry's score is haunting and a fantastic film that uses the widescreen frame to its limits. --Brian
posted 01-12-2007 11:18 PM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	You do make some interesting points, Mr. Ruger... The pop music titles that I've gotten from iTunes from certain labels like Elektra sound incredibly mediocre...
posted 01-12-2007 11:20 PM PT (US)

Crono/Kyp Standard Userer	No, he's right. 128, on any format, is BS. I think iTunes does good things for music, but c'mon....at least a 192 or lossless. I can pay 3 bucks more and get the CD in a store. --Brian
posted 01-12-2007 11:32 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	I wouldn't pay for anything at 192kbps (which for MP3 is barely enough to not sound obviously bad). I'm having enough trouble accepting 320kbps, even though the difference probably really is minimal there. And anyway, I wouldn't buy anything with DRM. Not only because I simply refuse too, but also because I'm not even sure I could play that on my system.
posted 01-13-2007 07:17 AM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by BMikeJ: You do make some interesting points, Mr. Ruger... The pop music titles that I've gotten from iTunes from certain labels like Elektra sound incredibly mediocre... iTunes doesn’t do the encoding themselves. The individual labels supply the music that iTunes hosts so the quality of the encodes can vary depending on the label. Most labels choose 128 because it is the minimum standard and because higher bitrates cost more to download (bigger files). My guess is Elektra is using some funky settings in the encoder. Technically, iTunes, could host wav files if a company chose to offer them as the player supports them. I don’t know whether Apple charges by the download or by a flat fee to offer songs in its store. My guess is a combination of rent for the server space and then pay-per-download.
posted 01-13-2007 10:09 AM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by MWRuger: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>iTunes doesn’t do the encoding themselves. The individual labels supply the music that iTunes hosts so the quality of the encodes can vary depending on the label. Most labels choose 128 because it is the minimum standard and because higher bitrates cost more to download (bigger files). My guess is Elektra is using some funky settings in the encoder. I would be willing to wager that a lot of these pop music record labels are using the same masters they used for the original CD releases back in the day without any additional mastering being done... and then the compression process just makes them sound even worse. And some of the video game scores released by EA on iTunes are very poorly produced... I bet they are just slapping these releases together from music sources that were mixed down to use in their respective video games instead of going back to the original music elements and mastering from there... and that is lazy and arrogant considering the money these people have made on the games themselves. If I were the composers, I would be extremely unhappy about the way their music is being represented in these digital download presentations from EA. The Harry Potter game scores released on iTunes are all poorly produced... Bad edits, some digital pops... The iTunes release of music from Battle For Middle Earth I has digital noise problems about 3/4 of the way into the album, problems that are practically undetectable on PC speakers but become more apparent when one tries to burn those music files to a CD and play them. Very sloppy work... This is one of the major downsides with the digital download album, especially in the case of iTunes who, as you have said, is just hosting these files... If the album has problems, who do you complain to? It's not like you got a defective CD and you can return it for another one... To be fair, most of the music I've purchased from iTunes sounds pretty good to my ears. But most of the pop music releases and many of the game score releases from EA that I have purchased from iTunes have made me unhappy.
posted 01-14-2007 01:52 AM PT (US)

BigT1981 Standard Userer	Even though I have no plans on buying the CD I will weigh in on that I agree that nothing should be accepted below 192k. It would be possible for iTunes to host lossless files all they would have to do is lower their prices for artists and what not so they can host them. By the way I think this is pretty much a sign that CD's are coming to an end and that digital downloads are going to be the way of the future now.
posted 01-14-2007 09:37 AM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	I view digital downloads as an alternative method of distributing music. I don't think you will ever be able to shake the desire to physically hold your music purchase in your hands or the desire to physically go into an establishment to see what they have to offer. But the people that prepare these digital download releases have an obligation to put something together that is properly mastered (well edited, sounds good, no digital problems, etc.) and some of them are not keeping up their end, like EA. I would applaud labels like Mikael's Moviescore Media and Direct Song for consistently preparing digital download releases of good quality, not just of content but of presentation.
posted 01-14-2007 11:58 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	I just bought the excellent Kyle Eastwood/Michael Stevens score for Letters From Iwo Jima from iTunes and I'm one unhappy camper about the sound quality of these AAC files! Almost without exception, each track is riddled with digital noise, mostly at the end, due to their compression, and the string sections seem to suffer greatly from the squeezing of the ones and zeros; there's also a few ditigal pops within the first 3 tracks. I'd buy the CD, but I'm overseas and needed a quick fix for my iPod... I'll pick up the disc some other time when I get home. I was moderately happy with the Deja Va sound quality, but it could have been way better. Ryan Keveaney, come back to this thread and try and tells us all that AAC iTunes files are exactly the same as what we would get from buying the actual CD, like you did about King Kong (now, those iTunes rips suck!!!).
posted 01-14-2007 06:58 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	I'm with everyone else on this. I still have yet to pluck down money to buy crap-quality downloads. I won't ever do it, either.
posted 01-16-2007 12:44 AM PT (US)

Kevin Standard Userer	A friend of mine made the point that if everyone whines about the release of Black Hole this way, and refuses to download it, then it will look to all that "no one cares about this music, so why ever ever even think about putting it on CD." So do whatever you want. I'm going to get it, in the hopes that others will as well, and there will be enough interest that maybe... perhaps... someday we will get a "genuine" CD released.
posted 01-16-2007 08:45 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Hey, I bought two LPs back in 1980 or whenever if that's what is important. I even had the BLack Hole lunch pail for school. And you know, my LP to CD transfers probably sound much better than what will show up on iTunes. I can't say for sure because I've not heard the iTunes download, but I am not unhappy with what I have already.
posted 01-16-2007 11:25 PM PT (US)

SEBULBA Standard Userer	I'll throw in my 2 cents for whatever it's worth. I've purchased (just recently) 3 iTunes soundtracks. My first was Casino Royale, because of the complete score available only on iTunes. It took me a while, because I was leary of the AAC compression. However, I did research on the web and found that although AAC is 128 bit, it's not the same as MP3 compression. 128bit AAC is equivilant to 256 bit MP3. Now as others have stated, it probably can vary depending on the label doing the compression, if this is true. Anyway, I downloaded Casino Royale and was quite happy with it. No artifact that I noticed. Strings sound good. Brass sounds great. No blips, bleeps or anything like that. I have since downloaded Slither which I was also very pleased with and Destroy All Humans 2 which also sounds very good. But maybe it's all based on the master and the label, I don't know.
posted 01-17-2007 09:53 AM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	I think it is absolutely related to how much work is done by a label on a release before it gets offered as a digital download. Some labels treat it like any other release and do the proper work on it and other labels, who may not be confident in the download option but are testing the waters or just don't care and want to make some additional income, just let this stuff go out there as is... I purchased The Black Hole and it sounded just fine to me.
posted 01-17-2007 10:03 AM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	128ACC is far closer to 192 mp3. Even Apple doesn't claim better than this. This does make it an excellent encoder because of the high quality of the resulting encode versus the size. That still doesn't make it lossless. The point is that we should get quality equal to what we have know (CD), especially if this is the only release we are likely to get.
posted 01-17-2007 01:17 PM PT (US)

MarkA Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by MWRuger: The point is that we should get quality equal to what we have now (CD), especially if this is the only release we are likely to get. Agreed 100%. If only others could understand this. Figuratively speaking, why should I now settle for cassette quality music when CD quality music has become the standard?
posted 01-17-2007 02:22 PM PT (US)

shureman Standard Userer	My 1979 is still in mint condition and besides I've got a CD-R of the boot....forget I-tunes......
posted 01-17-2007 02:47 PM PT (US)

jonathan_little Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Kevin: A friend of mine made the point that if everyone whines about the release of Black Hole this way, and refuses to download it, then it will look to all that "no one cares about this music, so why ever ever even think about putting it on CD." So do whatever you want. I'm going to get it, in the hopes that others will as well, and there will be enough interest that maybe... perhaps... someday we will get a "genuine" CD released. The bottom line is that they'd have my money already if they released it as a CD. I understand what you're saying but I can't vote with my wallet on a platform that I don't want to support. That said, if they were offering lossless files I'd probably cave in. The situation seems lose lose whatever we do. The popularity of a download could just spur on more exclusive downloads instead of CD releases. I guess I'll enjoy the unmentionable LP transfer which also contains a rather amazing unused cue (what the heck was that going to underscore, an alternate ending?!) and some other alternate versions. [Message edited by jonathan_little on 01-17-2007]
posted 01-17-2007 03:15 PM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Kevin: A friend of mine made the point that if everyone whines about the release of Black Hole this way, and refuses to download it, then it will look to all that "no one cares about this music, so why ever ever even think about putting it on CD." So do whatever you want. I'm going to get it, in the hopes that others will as well, and there will be enough interest that maybe... perhaps... someday we will get a "genuine" CD released. That is why we make it clear whenever possible that it is the format that we don't like, not the music. If enough people buy this release from iTunes one could make the argument that no CD release is necessary because obviously enough people are satisfied with iTunes “quality”. Frankly, I would be shocked to discover that anyone at Disney knew or cared about whether there were or weren’t dissatisfied customers for these digital downloads. I suspect that the only reason that this is even being released is because of an individual with an in at Disney is making it happen.
posted 01-17-2007 05:17 PM PT (US)

SPQR Standard Userer	Of the 100 most popular soundtrack album downloads on the iTunes Store THE BLACK HOLE currently ranks 96th; lodged between some MORTAL KOMBAT title and RETURN OF THE KING. Not too shabby for a 28 year old score. [Message edited by SPQR on 01-18-2007]
posted 01-18-2007 07:52 PM PT (US)

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