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Originally posted by Thor:
Oh, he's definitely a pioneer. Not in the simple task of joining synth and orchestra, perhaps, but doing it a CERTAIN WAY that has become hugely influential in the film music world over the years. I'm talking about the minor-mode power anthem style that he developed in the late 80's, in particular. Faltermeyer had tried something similar with TOP GUN, but it was more of an upbeat rock instrumental, whereas Zimmer created that SERIOUS, dramatic, somber action style with a heavier reliance on orchestral colours (BLACK RAIN, DAYS OF THUNDER, BACKDRAFT).

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I'm sorry, but I don't see that as anything more than a combination of the style of non-orchtesral music he happened to be combining with the orchestra, plus a reaction to the particular movies he was being assigned to, which may have called for something more somber and dramatic. (I hesitate to use the word "serious" because I'm not sure why you capitalized it...are you implying rock instrumentals can't be serious?)

Alright, then. I get your preference. For me, though, those scores are very different and work in vastly different idioms. Still, they have Zimmer's TOUCH, his TRADEMARK style, which is the unique "orchestral colour in overall prog rock/electronic ambient" approach that he pioneered almost 20 years ago. And about the woodwinds...as Zimmer himself says, why use the instrument prominently if it isn't relevant?

***I don't understand how someone can look at the more and more frustrating output of film scores and say the director care for and understand much about their music. I mean, obviously many people are indeed happy with the current state of the industry, but I am not.***

I'm more optimistic than you. I've never followed that "oh, everything used to be so much better back in the day" school. I think the situation is no more different today than it was 50 years ago. There is crap now just as there was crap then. And there is GREAT movies being made now, just as before. If you also include non-mainstream movies, you'll see a flora of interesting things cropping up all over the place.

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Originally posted by budharney:
Interesting. I actually think Zimmer himself badly wants to be included in that "sphere of criticism." In an old famous FSM interview Zimmer pointed out that his music is similar to Jerry Goldsmith's score for Total Recall, citing the use of "electronics, percussion and orchestra." He shouldn't compare himself to Goldsmith and not expect outrage from fans.

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Please, could you give me the exact quote in context?

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Originally posted by James:
I'm sorry, but I don't see that as anything more than a combination of the style of non-orchtesral music he happened to be combining with the orchestra, plus a reaction to the particular movies he was being assigned to, which may have called for something more somber and dramatic. (I hesitate to use the word "serious" because I'm not sure why you capitalized it...are you implying rock instrumentals can't be serious?)

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Perhaps my definition of "pioneer" is too strict? I smell a new thread about this....

Main Entry: 1pi·o·neer
Pronunciation: "pI-&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French pionier, from Old French peonier foot soldier, from peon foot soldier, from Medieval Latin pedon-, pedo -- more at PAWN
1 : a member of a military unit usually of construction engineers
2 a : a person or group that originates or helps open up a new line of thought or activity or a new method or technical development b : one of the first to settle in a territory
3 : a plant or animal capable of establishing itself in a bare, barren, or open area and initiating an ecological cycle

Personally I still prefer a stricter definition of the word as I mentioned previously.

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Originally posted by PeterK:
In other words, if we think of power anthems today, the first name that comes to mind is Zimmer. But he did not pioneer the power anthem.

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Who did?

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And about the woodwinds...as Zimmer himself says, why use the instrument prominently if it isn't relevant?

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It's not about him using woodwinds *prominently*, it's about him not using woodwinds *at all*. Woodwinds are very versatile and can enhance the orchestral apparatus greatly.
By the way, who determines whether an instrument is "relevant" or not? Every instrument is able to create a whole palette of sounds and moods, so saying woodwinds aren't appropriate AT ALL for a certain film is just beyond me.

Of course Zimmer has a unique voice. But like James I think there's more to a pioneer than combining two styles. There are plenty of composers who have unique voices, but you don't call them pioneers.

David Arnold's ice chase music from Die Another Day is more pioneer- like than Zimmer's scores.

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Who did?

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There are countless examples of power anthems everywhere, and, good god have we forgotten already about Zimmer's "inspiration" for Gladiator?

Ben Hur is a good example, and holy hallelujah, look to those powerhouse classics that were never written for film, but borrowed endlessly. "Also Sprach Zarathustra"? Cough! Some of my favorite films are the NFL film newsreels made in the 70s. Those have hundreds of power anthems. 10 CDs in all, and called "AUTUMN THUNDER"!

C'mon!

***Zimmer certainly has an influential sound that has permated Hollywood action films, but he is not the pioneer of this new technology.***

I don't care about technology. I'm talking about an aesthetic approach to scoring movies.

***This hangup on power anthems is interesting in that it comes up in nearly every post by Thor. Power anthems are not Zimmer's.***

I know they are not. They emanated stylistically in the 70's and were usually associated with huge rock ballads a la Queen or Meatloaf in the 80's (which is when the term itself was coined). But Zimmer took that element and used it in a more classically symphonic sound, always relying on heavy minor-mode melodies.

***It's not about him using woodwinds *prominently*, it's about him not using woodwinds *at all*. Woodwinds are very versatile and can enhance the orchestral apparatus greatly.***

Ehm...Zimmer has used woodwinds on numerous occasions. It just isn't very useful (or relevant) when a huge gohtic superhero swings across skyscrapers or when there's a big battle onboard a pirate ship.

***Of course Zimmer has a unique voice. But like James I think there's more to a pioneer than combining two styles. There are plenty of composers who have unique voices, but you don't call them pioneers.***

No. But when you look at the large amount of scores today that are written a certain way, you can trace the roots back to Zimmer. He did it first. He pioneered it. And it has later been picked up by many composers and directors who want "that particular Zimmer sound".

***Ever heard of Ben- Hur?***

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Originally posted by rkeaveney:
Okay, all this talk about Hans Zimmer and "power anthems". I lay claim to the term, as I used it in my 2001 review of PEARL HARBOR! A quick search of Google supports my case

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Ehm...Zimmer has used woodwinds on numerous occasions. It just isn't very useful (or relevant) when a huge gohtic superhero swings across skyscrapers or when there's a big battle onboard a pirate ship.

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Says who?
On the surface, does using a fiddle over a horse charge make any sense?
I think by excluding the woodwinds on principle, you rob the orchestra of many possibilities.

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***Ever heard of Ben- Hur?***

Yes, but I don't see how that is relevant to anything. Have you heard of purple tomatoes?

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Obviously I was referring to sean, who asked where the "power anthems" come from.
And (also obviously) I don't know whether Ben- Hur was the first score to do that, but I just wanted to point out that they were around long before Zimmer's time.

Aha? Danny Elfman and John Debney would tell you otherwise, amongst others.

It's really a matter of how you use them and the sound you want to produce, if you use woodwinds or not. But this goes in both directions:
Neither are woodwinds per se unsuited for those cited settings (other than Bruckheimer doesn't want them).
Nor is a composer per definition unskilled or whatever when he doesn't use them! It's matter of choice of sound. Take Giacchino's "Lost" for example, he only uses strings, trombones, percussion, piano and harp. And look how unique a sound he creates with this!

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Originally posted by Thor:
I don't care about technology. I'm talking about an aesthetic approach to scoring movies.

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Ok, so he aesthetically scores action films with powerful anthems (the kind that were made popular in the rock idiom in the 70s and 80s) using orchestral instruments. Forget about technology.

If that's what you are saying, he shouldn't be hailed as a pioneer. He's simply combining different idiomatic elements of musical spectrum. Artists have been doing this forever. But because we're talking powerful stuff (the "power anthem" rock idiom after all), emotional response to this "invention" will be so strong, intellectual analysis succombs to passionate revelations, which are silly so much of the time in such a scenario.

I would argue if anything Zimmer has done is pioneering, it's ushering in a specific brand of technological "composing." To read your rebuff about not caring about technology, I say phooey. You can't argue anything Zimmer without discussing technology.

What gives you the falso notion of a "pioneer" is Zimmer's success, a success that has dumped Zimmer clones on every street corner in Hollywood ready to provide the Zimmer sound. But if you take a very close look at the sound of the clones, you will find they provide a sound directly related to the technological accomplishment Zimmer has achieved with electronic sampling software, and not his compositional combination of musical idioms... as you argue is his unique sound. You may find the clones doing the whole combination thingy too, but that's in the nature of every artist. The technology has made it possible to clone!

It is his technological mastery of software that has "helped open up" new methods for providing a modern orchestral sound to film scoring. Of course he didn't invent this technology... and it's been done before, but his timing was everything with the technological boom that brought fast computers and volumes of hard disc space.

I'm gonna go listen to a score by Alfred Newman now.

***On the surface, does using a fiddle over a horse charge make any sense?
I think by excluding the woodwinds on principle, you rob the orchestra of many possibilities.***

Of course, I'm not robbing anything of anything. I LOVE woodwinds and they are in fact my favourite group of instruments (especially the oboe) after the piano. But I tend to look realistically at this: If you're making a mainstream Hollywood movie and want to portray a boisterious pirate battle, you can't have solo woodwinds buried in sound effects. If you're making an independent and experimental film about pirates, yes. But not PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN.

By the way, I don't know where you got this strange notion that Zimmer somehow has an aversion towards woodwinds. He's using them all the time.

****Obviously I was referring to sean, who asked where the "power anthems" come from.
And (also obviously) I don't know whether Ben- Hur was the first score to do that, but I just wanted to point out that they were around long before Zimmer's time.***

But BEN-HUR has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we're discussing here. Does it have big, bold, powerful music? Yes, but a "power anthem" is a completely different thing, especially Zimmer's particular use of it.

***If that's what you are saying, he shouldn't be hailed as a pioneer. He's simply combining different idiomatic elements of musical spectrum.***

Come on now, Peter. I've already said twice that this is about MORE than just the joining of synth and orchestra.

***I would argue if anything Zimmer has done is pioneering, it's ushering in a specific brand of technological "composing." To read your rebuff about not caring about technology, I say phooey. You can't argue anything Zimmer without discussing technology.***

Of course I can. Technology is merely the TOOL by which he has found his sound. It does not account fully for the CONTENTS of his particular sound.

***But if you take a very close look at the sound of the clones, you will find they provide a sound directly related to the technological accomplishment Zimmer has achieved with electronic sampling software, and not his compositional combination of musical idioms...***

I couldn't disagree more. First of all, I don't consider them "clones", but composers who are working within the "Zimmer template", so to speak. They're still able to inject their own trademarks into it. Second - and as I said above - there is more to this than just gadgets. If you listen to what Zimmer did in the late 80's and early 90's, you'll find an abundance of traces of this in today's scores, even if technology has advanced dramatically since then. So it's a matter of AESTHETICS, not technology. Zimmer was the first to DEFINE it, and others followed suit. That's a pioneer in my eyes.

NP: HELLRAISER (Young)

Peter, I wish I could launch an investigation into who first wrote a power anthem, but I'm leaving for Australia next week, and brother, it's time to party like it's 1999!

This is exactly why people don't like Zimmer's music. Instrumental families like woodwinds and brass and strings are irrelevant to him; they're all treated the same because with Zimmer the entire orchestra is essentially reduced to a gigantic piano. I don't want him to "replace different sections" with woodwinds or just "add them on top." I want him to WRITE FOR woodwinds. Be he doesn't have the chops or inclination. That's fine, but I still don't have to like it. It may be effective film music (sometimes) but it's always bad MUSIC.

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they're all treated the same because with Zimmer the entire orchestra is essentially reduced to a gigantic piano.

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This may be the best description for Zimmer's music I've heard in a very long time.

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gkgyver, if Hans Zimmer used an abundance of woodwinds in the few scores you claim to have heard by him, would that make you like them? If you don't like the notes used or that most of a score is written in C, than I don't see how it matters one way or another if HZ truncated a score by replacing different sections with woodwinds or just adding them on top; you just don't like what he composes and how he composes his music.

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Why do you have to generalise everything? Of course I don't have an aversion for Zimmer's music ONLY because he doesn't use woodwinds, but it adds a chunk to the big picture.
And neither is it because his pieces are "written in C".

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
And please stop implying that I'm saying things that aren't true. I HAVE listened to the scores I mentioned.
I might as well say "If you like Hans Zimmer as you claim ..."

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Go do YOUR homework. If you're really as passionate about film music as you are about your inability to get an erection, you should go take a few classes in theory and counterpoint so you can better understand why people hate Zimmer's music. If I go outside and make doody on the street corner and sprinkle it with salt and pepper and place a rose in it, I may be a pioneer but it doesn't make me a good film composer.

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Originally posted by budharney:
If you're really as passionate about film music as you are about your inability to get an erection, you should go take a few classes in theory and counterpoint so you can better understand why people hate Zimmer's music.

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AHAHAHA! Finally! Someone caught that!

And hey, I understand why people hate (and that's a strong word, by the way) Zimmer's music; I just don't agree with them.

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Originally posted by PeterK:
Thor, you have yet to clearly define what Zimmer has defined, so I'll check out. If you can define it precisely, this thread should wrap up nicely. Otherwise, yeah let's keep arguing semantics. I say "clone" you say "template." Sorry, but no thanks. I tried.

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I have already defined the sound twice, Peter. But I'll do it again just for you. The "power anthem" melody is a minor-moded melody (often rather slow) that is very dramatic and pompous in style. Zimmer puts this melody on top of a soundscape that has electronics interacting with orchestral colours in a prog rock-type rhythm and with prog rock-type chord progressions (i.e. simultaneous chord changes, which is not typical of traditional symphonic music). Good examples of this include BLACK RAIN, DAYS OF THUNDER, BACKDRAFT and THE ROCK. These scores (and the style within) have become templates for a slew of contemporary film composers - both those who have worked under Zimmer's own tutelage in Media Ventures and outside.

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Go do YOUR homework. If you're really as passionate about film music as you are about your inability to get an erection, you should go take a few classes in theory and counterpoint

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Zimmer's apparently set for The Dark Knight ... well, there goes my day.