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MUPPET TREASURE ISLAND vs DEAD MAN'S CHEST

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Author	Topic: MUPPET TREASURE ISLAND vs DEAD MAN'S CHEST

PeterK FishChip	Ok, have at it. Serious discussions only, anchored by genuine reaction to these two music scores. If you've not heard one of the other, say ouch. I mean "STAY OUT!" Shiver me timbers.
posted 07-05-2006 12:26 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	O.K., much of the complaints surrounding Dead Man's Chest seems to revolve around the score having a been-there-done-that feel to it, as far as Hans Zimmer goes: Less of the same. There's some truth to that, no question, where themes from Gladiator, The Rock, and Drop Zone have been directly lifted and adapted for Pirates; fine, that's a good argument, but its also a shame that Zimmer had "only one day and one night" to conjure up themes for the first film (which, of course, are used again in Dead Man's Chest), because of Alan Silvestri being fired, so that has to be taken into account. Muppet's Treasure Island, whether or not it suffered from the same time crunch as the first Pirates, has the same problem: Again, themes from Crimson Tide and Drop Zone are lifted directly and adapted for Muppet's. So, if theme lifts and "self-plagiarism" are a problem for the listener, than there's fault with both scores. If Hans Zimmer is your problem, than don't bother with either; you'll only give yourself a head ache. That said, Zimmer's variations of his themes are far better in Dead Man's Chest than Badelt's take on the same themes in The Black Pearl (good example: "I've Got My Eye On You" vs. "The Medallion Calls"). But, hearing the Crimson Tide anthem crafted for a small children's movie (Muppet's), by contrast, just doesn't sound good; same with the Drop Zone variations for the furry creatures. IMHO, Dead Man's Chest is a better score. Muppet's is too mickey-mousy, with a "Ho! Ho! Ho!" jaunty high seas theme throughout that doesn't sit well. Batman Begins came through for me, if for no other reason, just because of track 10 (I'm not spelling out that idiotic Latin track title) on that disc, and I tend to skip over the rest of that score almost completely; with Dead Man's Chest, "The Kraken" and "Jack Sparrow" have (so far) done the exact same: Impressed me with the showcase, while nodding in acceptance at the rest of the xzibit. Another track that's ear-catching is "Tia Dalma," which has a superior rendition of the "Underwater March" from The Black Pearl. So, there are other pieces of note. "The Kraken" just has that kick-some-ass sound to it that I like and respond to from Hans Zimmer, and he writes action music like none other. [Message edited by sean on 07-05-2006]
posted 07-05-2006 05:38 PM PT (US)

Jeff78 Standard Userer	Muppet Treasure Island all the way! Only a few, and I mean few, tracks I like on Dead Mans Chest
posted 07-05-2006 11:48 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	I remember liking the Muppets score, though I don't remember any of the actual music. I found the first Pirates score horrible, and the (very) few bits I've heard of the new one don't let me expect anything better for the sequel.
posted 07-06-2006 08:20 AM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	The bulk of Muppet Treasure Island is certainly a "been there, done that" exercise in Hans Zimmer action music, but for me, all that's needed to mark the differences between these two scores is one minute and seven seconds. The first track off of the muppet adventure is only 1:07, but there is enough in there to write an extended, pleasing 45 minute symphony. I don't hear anything like this in Dead Man's Chest. Taking the "Treasure Island" piece and translating it into the not-so-fozzy world of Jack Sparrow would take little effort, I'd think. The original track is titillating with all those ostinato flutes, but break it apart... send in the oboes, minor scale the heroic horn effort and suddenly you've got a real piratey movie score that is all Zimmer, all Dead Man's Chest.... to my ears, the non-synth orchestration of the acoustic elements in the Muppet score is what makes it so interesting. Dead Man's Chest has a few great moments, but I'll still come back to track one on the Muppet soundtrack for good Zimmer pirate music! As for those guitars people are complaining about in DMC, I found it hilarious in the song "Shiver My Timbers," there's a great glam rock guitar strum right as the pirates sing "...and those buccaneers drown their sins in rum, the devil himself would have to call them scum..."
posted 07-06-2006 11:15 AM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Sean, as for the muppet score being a "Ho Ho Ho!" effort, do you have wax in the ears? This is not predominantly mickey-mousey as you've made it out to be... it's a serious dramatic score! Where's the mickey mousing?
posted 07-06-2006 11:20 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: Sean, as for the muppet score being a "Ho Ho Ho!" effort, do you have wax in the ears? This is not predominantly mickey-mousey as you've made it out to be... it's a serious dramatic score! Where's the mickey mousing? I disagree. But I agree with you about the first track from Muppet's: Its awesome! I just wish the whole score had that feel to it; it doesn't, and never gets that good again. You like white wine, I like red wine.
posted 07-06-2006 03:27 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	But you don't answer my question. Where's the mickey-mousing? Mickey-mousing isn't a method of scoring that can be subjectively present. It's there or it isn't. It's a technique. Point out its whereabouts to me. Show me an example. I don't know how to ask any clearer.... Listen to those Carl Stalling discs, and then listen to Muppet pirates again. Those are not even half cousins.
posted 07-06-2006 04:21 PM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	I remember Muppet Treasure Island having good themes and being a nice pirates score with a Zimmer style. Dead Man's Chest is one of the worst scores of Zimmer's career. Most cheap straight-to-video movies have better scores that this is. The only good track on there is the dance remix! The rest is a trash bin of undevelopped motifs and ideas, lazy keyboard banging, and completely pointless noise that accomplishes absolutely nothing at all. At least the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie had some nifty almost baroque-like cues. The sequel score is like leftover ideas from a brainstorming session for the original demo for the first score.
posted 07-06-2006 06:49 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	By PeterK: "But you don't answer my question. Where's the mickey-mousing? Mickey-mousing isn't a method of scoring that can be subjectively present. It's there or it isn't. It's a technique. Point out its whereabouts to me. Show me an example. I don't know how to ask any clearer.... Listen to those Carl Stalling discs, and then listen to Muppet pirates again. Those are not even half cousins." Easy there, Super Chief. Simmer down. Take it down a notch there, Peter. Sit back, relax, it's Miller Time, yo! Just bottle up that rage, that hunger, that killer instinct and guzzle it down with that Smirfnoff you've got stashed in your freezer. O.K., now that that's settled, I'm gonna go smoke some chronic; arm wrestle with my brother over which ship is more cool: the Millennium Falcon or the Gunstar (from The Last Starfighter); and after that I'm gonna ask myself, "What is best in life!?!" to which the answer will be: "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!" And then I'll watch Karate Dog; and then if I'm still feeling lively, I'll go dig up Muppet's Treasure Island from my closet (its obviously a skeleton) and listen to it note for note; and then I'll rip it apart piece by piece; PIECE. BY. PIECE! I swear to Dog; and I won't stop until Zimmer and his gangster friends, Nick "The Admiral" Glennie-Smith and Harry Gregson-Williams and any of his other three-named lovers are severely bruised and battered by my written vitriol. OH SNAP! [Message edited by sean on 07-06-2006]
posted 07-06-2006 08:30 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Ah, got it. Sean's huge support of his own views, together with Dinko's wild post, prove at least "POTC2", when applied to music scores, means Piece of Total Crap 2. This was too easy. Look, POTC2 is serviceable and fine. I won't call of it total crap, as there are some entertaining moments, but in all realities, if Zimmer would have simply copied his entire Muppet pirate score for POTC instead of trying to come up with 11th hour themes in a day and a half, it would have been just as successful, and perhaps would have even left a door open for serious development of musical ideas for sequels. But alas, such is now long gone silver.
posted 07-06-2006 08:59 PM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: [...]"POTC2", when applied to music scores, means Piece of Total Crap 2. OMG! David Arnold will pull another POTC 007!
posted 07-06-2006 09:11 PM PT (US)

John C Winfrey Standard Userer	Well, what can I say? More dumb sequels and the score? Well, what can you say? MOre of the same. J.
posted 07-06-2006 09:17 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Dinko: OMG! David Arnold will pull another POTC 007! Don't say that! I still have huge hopes for Casino Royale (even that teaser satisfied!). Oh, who am I kidding? Come back John Barry! You aren't finished yet! [Message edited by nuts_score on 07-07-2006]
posted 07-07-2006 07:58 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	Peter, seriously, I'm gonna listen to Muppet's when I get back from Montr�al; I just felt like needlessly pestering you through a strange post. Dinko: You've got some bizarre ideas about what sounds synthetic and what doesn't; the video from the recording sessions of POTC 2 has the exact same orchestral sound as compared to what's on the actual release. Christian Clemensen has this same argument and it doesn't fly; the orchestra sounds like an orchestra; and yes, there are synthesizers in the mix, but that's seperate. O.K., Peter, while I've been sitting here picking my nose I put in Muppet's: It's wicked, I love it, but it is pretty jumpy. So, replace "micky mousing" with "jumpy" and you'll have gravy. I still like Pirates 2 way more, though. And there's way more keyboard synth and sampled orchestra in Muppet's; it's in the same fashion as Drop Zone (although Drop Zone is totally synthesized, other than the guitars).
posted 07-07-2006 10:42 AM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	quote: Originally posted by sean: And there's way more keyboard synth and sampled orchestra in Muppet's; it's in the same fashion as Drop Zone (although Drop Zone is totally synthesized, other than the guitars). Yes, there are more keyboard chords (that's typical of a Zimmer score at that point in time if you follow his sound evolution), but the amount of orchestral sampling remains even (it has to do with the improvement in quality samples from 1996 to 2006), while Muppets highlight vastly more entertaining acoustic solo performances (horns, flutes, etc, etc). The acoustic sampling these days sounds more like the real thing and are harder to spot (except when it's a cello chord that is repeated ad nauseum with perfection every single time... painfully obviously robotic in nature!). I appreciate the turnaround, Sean.
posted 07-07-2006 12:12 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	Now that PotC 2 has recieved the official "Nuts_Score Standard of Listening Experience" (this includes four complete listenings: the first listen as just a first listen; the second as a theme/motif analyzer; the third listen contemplates if the music works within the context of itself; and the fourth listen judegs how well the album is mixed and programmed) I've come away with a final word: Good . . . not Great or Outstanding (like DaVinci earlier this year. The music is definitely hit or miss. I can see where many of the naysayers (excpet Dinko, your logic doesn't entirely work here. After all, I could have swore you said the same thing about DaVinci) are coming from with their gripes. But to be honest, they don't phase me. "The Kraken" is a really good, intense, MV-heavy action cue and it's a welcome relief at a time when I thought Zimmer was just going to clutter his album releases with the atmospheric stuff (Batman Begins anyone?). Speaking of which, the action here is plenty. And while it does have that "been there, heard that" feel to it; very few Zimmer action scores don't. It's simply his style. I find the same gripes over and over with other composers. It's a relief that Zimmer seems to have strayed from his original PotC theme that he handed over to Klaus Badelt one drunken night and said, "I bought you a new Casio too, little buddy." The new themes are quite welcome and I'm actually not ashamed to admit that I found myself humming the most prominent one after the third listen (I dont't know exactly what it fits to as I'll be seeing the movie tomorrow night). Zimmer also does a welcome trip back to Jack Sparrow's original theme that introduced him on that sinking ship's mast a few years back. "Two Hornpipes (Tortuga)" is the only track (other than that crap passing as music on track 12) I find myself programming out on repeat listens; I just feel it's worthless source music that could have exited the album release in favor of something better. Delores Clay's (Al's wife? or cousin?) vocals suit "Tia Dalma" well and I can't wait to hear how they are used in the film. A huge gripe that I have is this new little MV/Remote Control trademark "atmosphere" effect that can't seem to escape any of their recent releases (Constantine, Batman Begins, DaVinci); I hope I'm not the only one to hear it, but it really does grate my nerves when I do (mainly because the first place I heard it was on Constantine thus it must be the nefarious work of Klaus Badelt . . . or Mel Wesson). In short, this won't be for everyone; just like the first score. I have an intense hatred for the simplicity and bombast-to-the-point-of-nausea of Badelt's first score, but Zimmer greatly improves on that one; even giving the Pirate theme a much-needed boost (not that it helps . . . much). NP> PotC 2 (*/***) [Message edited by nuts_score on 07-08-2006]
posted 07-07-2006 08:38 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	PeterK: "Hans Zimmer sounds like Hans Zimmer and it bugs me! ROAR!!!" Dinko: "POTC 1 has baroque music by Lady Badelt and I want more baroque music by Lady Badelt! YAY! And, also (if you didn't already know from every other Hans Zimmer-centred post I've authored), Hans Zimmer's music sounds fake! The orchestra is fake! All the cellos are fake and sound like samples from a fake orchestra! It sounds like it was written for videotape not film! You can tell! Videotape scores sound fake, more than film scores do. I hear noise, noise ... you hear that!?! There's noise out there! Oh also, movies shouldn't be scored because sound effects are better! Music does nothing! It sounds fake." To nuts_score: there is no MV/Remote Control "sound," "trademark," whatever... there's Hans Zimmer's style, and then there's everyone else who copies him (and I guess they have to, scoring cues here and there for a film he's working on). "The Kraken" is a great Hans Zimmer piece, not an MV/Remote Control fabrication, etc. You can watch HZ recording this piece over at one of his fansites (the video puts Dinko and CC in the doghouse where their strange notions are put to shame). Also, where's the needless atmosphere in Da Vinci Code (IMO, that's a solid score, beginning to end)? Batman Begins is understanble, but damn, when that score gets going, it GETS GOING! (I'm sure you agree) And Constantine!!??!! Man, that's Badelt, so who cares (HAHA, I know you don't!).
posted 07-08-2006 09:57 PM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	Let's see. For nearly two centuries, the (large)symphony orchestra had a certain sound. For nearly 100 years symphony orchestras were recorded to sound like what they are. There are dozens of thousands of orchestral recordings available. Some are well recorded. Others are a shame. But all present the symphony orchestra in a certain sound, close to what the orchestra would sound like in real life. For the past 20 years, a certain German chap has his music recorded and mixed in such a fashion that you can barely notice the difference between a full synth score (say Drop Zone) and a full orchestral score (say The Peacemaker). Nope. It's not Dinko and CC having strange notions. It's the Zimmer chap. Now if Zimmer fans' ears have been so conditioned to the synthy sound that they cannot perceive the difference between a perfectly natural-sounding orchestra and one overlayered and filtered through synths, that's not Dinko and CC having strange conceptions, it's the whole Zimmergang (fans and ghostwriters).
posted 07-09-2006 07:13 AM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	This whole synth versus real orchestra reminds me of an arguement that I once had with a peer in one of my video productions classes back in high school. Me, favoring film over digital, gave him the reasons why film is ultimately better at capturing the picture at hand rather than digital; the arguement is simple: film is a process that directly focuses, samples and records a light source. Digital is a process that directly focuses, samples and interprets a light source. He responded that he didn't care about how it looked and how motion reacted in the two mediums, he simply cared about how much more easier it was. To me, this arguement leads directly into a synth arguement: the simpleness of it all. Zimmer can record Martin Tillman playing a C-Major chord and retain that vibration onto the synth's memory, in turn, whenever Zimmer needs to bring up that, he presses the key which relates to it on the synth (at what point did this become "How to program your synthesizer"? ); therefor, whenever the chord is used again, it exists as that perfect synthesized vibration. It's certainly much simpler (and less irritating, apparently) to just play that over and over using your keyboard rather than having Tillman trying to achieve that perfection whenever the chord is called for in the written (pencil or keyboard, Clemenson!) music. It's all a matter of this new labor-issue, "get it done easy and quick". After all, why sit over a splicer and edit or wait while your digital masters are copied rather than just insert the tape, memory unit, or disc and get your recorded material straight from the source? Maybe I'm just a youngster still living inside of a older filmmakers body, but it's too easy to notice the differences between the two mediums; just as it is too easy to notice when a note sounds artifical due to its perfection (not even Yo-Yo Ma sounds as good as Tillman's samples . . . well, rarely ).
posted 07-09-2006 06:08 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	By the way, records and interprets are key words in that entire arguement; which is, obviously, why they are in bold. quote: Originally posted by Dinko: For nearly two centuries, the (large)symphony orchestra had a certain sound. For nearly 100 years symphony orchestras were recorded to sound like what they are. For the past 20 years, a certain German chap has his music recorded and mixed in such a fashion that you can barely notice the difference between a full synth score (say Drop Zone) and a full orchestral score (say The Peacemaker). [Message edited by nuts_score on 07-09-2006]
posted 07-09-2006 06:13 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	You got it the wrong way round. He might not sound as "perfect", but he does sound "better".
posted 07-09-2006 06:20 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	Marian, are you referring to my Ma vs. Tillman comment? Hell, even Steve Erdody sounds better than Tillman on a good day.
posted 07-09-2006 06:24 PM PT (US)

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