Zimmer's music, IMO, is awesome!!! I can't wait for this score. It's refreshing that the orchestra is much more present this time and themes are more refined, and, in some cases, new. "I like very much!!! WOW-WEE; WEE-WA!!!"

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Originally posted by TimT:
Oh Gosh! This is easily a 2 of 5 star score just from the clips. Its got a mix of organ and electric guitars, YUCK!

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Man... perhaps there's a reason for the organ... I seem to remember there being an organ in both trailers for the film, I wonder if that has something to do with it... gosh, I just can't figure it out...

As for the electric guitar, when was the last time you heared an electric guitar in a pirates movie? Zimmer said he wanted to change things up a bit for this score.

I personally can't wait for it. I think the clips rock and I will be ordering this CD from Peter.

Not just that, but when's the last time you've heard an electric guitar in a Zimmer-produced score period? ...oh, wait.

Anyway, I do dig some of what I heard in the clips.

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Originally posted by Al:
But I wonder: who else other than Zimmer could get away with using an organ so prominently these days? Seems any other composer doing it would be bound for rejection (save Williams, of course).

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Ehm...

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when was the last time you heared an electric guitar in a pirates movie?

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I'm speaking of the Hollywood film score rejection scene, and I'd say Morricone's Fateless and Shore's SUN are exempt in those regards.

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Originally posted by Al:
I guess for today's audience to swallow organ in a score, it needs to be dressed up in guitar, synth brass and choir.

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Please do not swallow organ!

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Originally posted by Kris:
I just remember how an electric guitar ruined Joel Goldsmith's score for KULL THE CONQUERER. Not having heard the POTC 2 samples, I hope the guitar doesn't ruin it.

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Originally posted by Al:

Sean, the organ's not a big deal, other than it being something you don't ordinarily hear in a modern Hollywood film score. I was just making the point that if Zimmer or crew weren't responsible, I think a score prominently featuring an organ would probably be rejection bait.

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Actually, I think Thomas Newman uses organs in a lot of his scores, like Pay It Forward.

I'm not meaning to be stubborn on this issue. It just seems that in the past few years, scores are being rejected right and left for reasons probably less than the utilization of an organ in a score. I understand that the organ is a part of this film, story-wise, but it seems that Zimmer is setting the standard for the execs on what a score should be like, and that even if he implemented an organ in a film that didn't feature one in the narrative, the execs would probably go for it, as long as the score featured all the other Zimmer aspects they've come to expect.

Not really trying to argue a passionate point here--just a thought I had when listening to the clips.

You give Superman Returns five stars? How many does the Williams version get? 20?

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Originally posted by sketch:
You give Superman Returns five stars? How many does the Williams version get? 20?

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I mean, come on this has happened before, it's just that Hans Zimmer's sound is more appealing today, just like the John Williams sound was in the 80s.

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Are you comparing Williams' influence with Zimmer's? I admit that Zimmer had a major influence on film music, but for the worse. Williams made film music a fine art again, whereas Zimmer only showcases how you can produce tin music without any knowledge of the subject and get away with it.

That Zimmer's hackjobs are sometimes appealing to the broad audience and desired by the director (for whatever perverted reasons) is most regrettable.

How you can see "refined" themes between all the synth brass and artificial cymbal crashes is beyond me. And yes, there are new themes, holy cow, ZIMMER'S A GOD! He actually came up with some new themes for a new film, how ingenius is that??

There was a little interview with Zimmer last week I think (link has been posted here), which revealed his cruel incompetence. He said something like "When I saw Davy Jones, my first thought was 'Rocker' so I worked on that".
That may be the first instinct, but film music (surprise) sometimes suggests something that isn't there on first sight, and maybe the film calls for a different overall tone altogether.
That's where Zimmer horribly fails in 90% of his scores.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Are you comparing Williams' influence with Zimmer's? I admit that Zimmer had a major influence on film music, but for the worse. Williams made film music a fine art again, whereas Zimmer only showcases how you can produce tin music without any knowledge of the subject and get away with it.

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Sure I am, but, I didn't write whether it was good or bad. That's your own opinion, and not one I share, since not all of Williams's musical ideas are the best, and the same goes for Zimmer.

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Originally posted by John C Winfrey:
No comment on this one. J.

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I own some Zimmer. I like some of his themes...some of them, but I can see why some people are not thrilled with him. Too often he just paints by numbers, utilizing plain, simple orchestrations without interesting colors and textures or counterpoint. And I will see this movie because I thought the first one was wonderful, original and refreshing even though it had a score rehased from Gladiator.

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Originally posted by sean:
Am I missing something here, or are people awaiting whether or not John C Winfrey is going to post? "John C Winfrey Reacts!"

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Well I can think of a couple of posters whose thoughts I prefer his to...

NP Fateless

Don't worry gkgyver, I take you seriously. Zimmer has done more damage to film music over the past twenty or so years than any other composer. A specific thing I hate about Zimmer's style is the way he treats the orchestra like a giant key board with every section doubled on every line. Younger fans accept this junk because they grew up with it. The rest of us know better.

It's good to know that when I'm kaput and gone, that guys like Sean will be around to take up the fight and put out all the blunt and controversial opinions with loads of bad temper and attitude.

What's downright awful to know, however, is that all this energy and bile is being put forward to defend endless crap instead of worthwhile art.

Amazing. From the films & TV shows he loves to the scores and composers he creams over, I've never seen one guy love all the wrong stuff before to this extent in my whole life.

Zimmer scores a pirate movie with electric guitars and he's ablaze with excitement like this is some great innovation that will make both the score and film Rock On Brother. [Insert corna symbol here.]

It's like everybody's bad taste rolled into one guy. And god forbid you should try to educate him on this point because he's just a brat. Well, I'm not going to be the one to succeed at taking your crack pipe away from you.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
There was a little interview with Zimmer last week I think (link has been posted here), which revealed his cruel incompetence. He said something like "When I saw Davy Jones, my first thought was 'Rocker' so I worked on that".
That may be the first instinct, but film music (surprise) sometimes suggests something that isn't there on first sight, and maybe the film calls for a different overall tone altogether.
That's where Zimmer horribly fails in 90% of his scores.

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I don't fully agree here, although I also think that sometimes film music represents what cannot be seen at first sight, or at all. Zimmer said he thought of a "rocker" and apparently built a theme around it. What's incompentent about that? As mentioned earlier I'm not a fan of electric guitars in a score, but that's my opinion. Maybe it does the film justice that he uses the guitar for the "rocker".

I'm not familiar with what Williams thought when he saw the Emperor the first time, but from what I hear in the music, he might have very well seen the Emperor as an evil "Priest or Monk". Hence his use of the male choir for the Emperor's theme. Would that be incompentent?

Clayton

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instead of just a blanket criticsm that can't be taken seriously.

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If I could only take your responses as "serious" as you take mine! I'd be a happier person.

I don't think you can point to specific mistakes in Zimmer's music, since often his entire concept is a huge mistake (like here). Either that, or the idea is right and the execution wrong (like Batman Begins).
Sketch makes a good point about Zimmer. Often his music just isn't balanced.

Well, what's incompetent about approaching a pirate movie with some flair of a period piece with "Rocker" on one's mind?

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Well, what's incompetent about approaching a pirate movie with some flair of a period piece with "Rocker" on one's mind?

Even if it's also a comedy, it pushes the envelope way too far, don't you think?

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O.K., I'll take you seriously: I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It also probably appeals more to the target audience (teenagers) of this movie than it does to older folk. As for pushing the envelope: Every new action score should ALWAYS push the envelope; like every new action movie should ALWAYS push the envelope. We've all seen many films about pirates and ships scored with a full orchestra already, enough to make you sick with glee, so there's all the more reason to make this one different. It's only right, because that's what Hans Zimmer does best, that his action score, here, uses a full orchestra, synthesizers, and guitars; having it the other way would be like demanding that John Williams score his films entirely with electronics, and being upset that he didn't (because, that's not what he does best): no thanks.

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Originally posted by sean:
We've all seen many films about pirates and ships scored with a full orchestra already, enough to make you sick with glee,

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Have we? The last good one I remember is from the 80s, and the great ones before that from the 30s and 40s...

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
Have we? The last good one I remember is from the 80s, and the great ones before that from the 30s and 40s...

The problem is, I'm afraid whatever orchestrations and instruments Zimmer throws at this movie won't be inappropriate. Judging from the first movie, the film isn't better anyway.

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I'm not saying "good ones," but I'm saying there's enough of them (pirates/ship movies) out there already with a fully orchestral score that it shouldn't bother people too much if there's organs and guitars and synthesizers in POTC 2. CutThroat Island has an awesome score! (with the London Symphony Orchestra and London Voices, no less!) and so does Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World. There's two recent ones right there that have great orchestral scores.

NP: Barry Lydon (VA) *****/*****

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
I don't have anything against electric guitars in pirate films if they work. Please, go ahead and score it with disco music if it fits. But it most likely won't.

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Well, why don't we all wait and see the movie before such judgement calls are made. And, personally, I don't really give a damn about this movie, I just wanna hear the score.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
The problem is not that there's a pirate movie out there scored with electric guitars, the problem is that it most likely won't fit the film and in the extreme case make it worse.
The thought alone is kind of perverse, and symptomatical for Zimmer's approach. He doesn't adapt to his films, he throws his own music at them, and make them stick somehow.

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I would disagree with that.
While I agree with Joan about Zimmer's "shallow" orchestrations (of which you can very often sense who did the background of: HGW or NGS or etc), I must disagree with the idea that Zimmer doesn't adapt to the films.
Like every composer he has a style. A certain melodic construction he always goes for. A certain set of ideas which constantly recur.
But his music is always particular to every film.
Each score is adapted, by Zimmer or his slaves, to a certain sound which is specific to each movie.
There's no way that Thelma & Louise = Nine Months = Crimson Tide = Da Vinci Code = Hans Zimmer.
Each of those carries completely different moods, ideas and musical expressions, each adapted to its situation.

Your comment also seems to imply a lack of Mickey Mousing on Zimmer's part. By "throwing his own music" at the films, I think Zimmer achieves more than most other composers who just Mickey Mouse the actions on the screen.

This then goes back to preference.
» Do you prefer your film score to explicitly tell you what to think by imitating musically the actions already depicted on the screen?

» Do you prefer a more restrained approach which expresses the context of the scene, rather than each individual word or gesture?

I find most of Zimmer's scores fall in the second category, although he has done his fair share of random mickey-mousing keyboard banging. I myself prefer scores from the second category. As a result, I have no problem with Zimmer's approach to film scores.

I would argue (if it wasn't obvious already) that those who are complaining here about the POTC 2 score are either nit-picking (TimT) or just plain don't like all or most what Hans Zimmer composes. Zimmer, IMO, almost always gets the tone of the film perfectly with his music, no matter what new appraoch he uses. This back-and-forth business about the guitars and organs is pretty silly considering it sounds fine as music, and I'm certain works fine with the images onscreen.

Maybe, three years ago, if I heard the percussive, Taiko drum-filled "Battle" piece from the Battlestar Galactica Mini Series and someone said "That's for a space battle!" I would have been confused and probably un-sympathetic, since it wasn't a huge symphonic action/adventure piece like something from Star Trek or Star Wars; yet, that music works perfectly in the scene and would prove any first time listener wrong.

The reason was that it went "off code" it didn't give us what we expected from a pirate movie: all the basic Treasure Island stuff like buried treasure, swordfights, pieces of eight, marooned men, etc.

You see if you are going to push the envelope and try for something profound in an already established genre, it has to really work as something special for an audience to be pleased by it. The conventional and formulaic may seem cliched but often you won't satisfy an audience unless you give it what they want. A western without a showdown, a Medeival film without guys in helmets swinging mace and yelling "Arrghh!", science-fiction without ray guns, all these things go off code and if you're going to try for this, you'd better have an entertaining enough content to make up for it.

Now chances are the kids who go to see POTC2 aren't even going to notice the score at all or care if it has an 100-piece orchestra or electric guitars or what have you.

But, even without seeing the film or hearing the score, it's easy to speculate that Zimmer's choice might go off code to the discerning. Maybe, he's trying to change the code, admit things into it that weren't there before. But who says I want the old code changed. Maybe I like it and want to defend that ground.

There was a chase sequence in one of the recent Star Wars films where Williams used an electric guitar and not only was it glaringly noticeable, it just seemed distracting and out of place, in the end, uncalled for. So why bother to do it? What was the point?

My feeling is that Dinko is half-right. Zimmer seems to adapt his scores to the films he scores. It's not like he's written the music six years ago and just throws it in there regardless of what the film is about. But he doesn't completely synchronize style & subject either. If anyone would care to go back to the topics on Mission: Impossible 2 that were written when the film came out and re-read how I talked of Zimmer's "faux music", you'll get a more detailed idea of what I'm describing here. A lot of times in that film, the cue and the action were at complete odds with each other, leaving a confusion about how to read the final communication.

At the most basic level, a film score is supposed to support a film, either to keep things moving, excite an audience, supply emotion, or what have you, and if that gets fowled up, it's better to have no score at all.