The piece you're reffering to, "Zam The Assassin and The Chase Through Coruscant," either does not have the electric guitar in it on film or it is buried under Ben Burtt's horrendous sound mix. Either way, the music in Attack Of The Clones is so badly mixed and spliced, we will probably never know why the guitar was put in there; maybe it did have a purpose, maybe it didn't. So far as we can tell its an awkward twist.

Go here for more: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2002/13_May---Star_Wars_Episode_2 _Attack_of_the_Kaplans.asp

"A lot of times in that film [Mission: Impossible 2], the cue and the action were at complete odds with each other, leaving a confusion about how to read the final communication."

That's a matter of opinion. I was never confused with music and image in that film, it was pretty cut and dry. Zimmer still takes the cake over Elfman and Giacchino with his heavy-metal M:I theme statement at the start of the Bare Island action sequence: The music carries that action with a solid, loud mix.

"At the most basic level, a film score is supposed to support a film, either to keep things moving, excite an audience, supply emotion, or what have you, and if that gets fowled up, it's better to have no score at all."

Thank you, Captain Obvious!

"Whatever the reasons are for Zimmer to employ guitars in a pirate film, my feeling is it's better to stay in code and be sure the public is getting what it expects. POTC was off-code itself, a pirate movie with a major nutcase for the pirate and supernatural weirdness to boot, but it worked (for the most part) because every other scene was lively. Still, I'd rather have had a real pirate movie in its stead. Unlike Sean, I don't think an unconventional genre picture will work as well as one which plays by the rules. And so I'm less than excited about it the way he is."

Lou, you should go listen to the clips and then post some thoughts about it, rather than take a stab in the dark, as you seem to enjoy doing so much.

As for me being excited about the movie: No, not really; now, Superman Returns and Borat look damn good, IMO! I do want Zimmer's score for POTC 2, that's for sure, but you're mistaken about what I think about the actual film.

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Originally posted by sean:
Dinko, which score(s) are you reffering to about recording an orchestra in order that it then be "processed" to sound electronic?

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I'm referring to just about every Zimmerscore, except his lighter fare (House of the Spirits, Nine Months, As Good as it Gets...), and interestingly, except Backdraft. I'm also referring to Trevor Rabin, Harry Gregson-Williams (except his recent ones), John Powell, Klaus Badelt, etc. There are always exceptions, but many of their scores are processed in a similar manner.

The only way to really explain what I mean, is to re-record some Zimmer music with a full orchestra then play side-by-side comparisons.

In the meantime, take the Gladiator score, and compare that with the Silva/Prague suite (or even the horrendous Telarc/Kunzel thing). It kind of gives you and indication of how the brass & strings on Gladiator were processed relative to their original acoustic tonality.
The Peacemaker, Crimson Tide, King Arthur... sure they're orchestral, but the orchestra sounds like synth. It's lost most of its original tone.

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Originally posted by Dinko:
The Peacemaker, Crimson Tide, King Arthur... sure they're orchestral, but the orchestra sounds like synth. It's lost most of its original tone.

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Going back to Backdraft, the first cue has many of the typical Zimmer stylistics which you later find in modern form on King Arthur. The string tone on Backdraft is much closer to it's acoustic origins, than the string tone on King Arthur.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, maybe I'm just so used to it that it doesn't even strike me the way it does you: than again, I can see why Hans Zimmer would use an orchestra in this fashion; at least it doesn't sound like a fakestra.

You want to talk about bad synthetic orchestra, just watch any given episode of 24, it's appaling. There are far worse examples than Hans Zimmer out there, so at least he actually records the orchestra; his samples are the best around, as well.

BTW, I don't hear Backdraft in King Arthur.

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Originally posted by sean:
I'm not saying "good ones," but I'm saying there's enough of them (pirates/ship movies) out there already with a fully orchestral score that it shouldn't bother people too much

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They can make as many sucky pirate/ship movies with fully orchestral scores as they like, that won't help me. I want a *good* pirate movie with a *good* score.

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if there's organs and guitars and synthesizers in POTC 2.

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Is anyone really bothered by organs? I've rarely heard people complain about organs in film scores (except in the case of Mission to Mars, for some unknown reason). The problem here should be the guitars.

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CutThroat Island has an awesome score! (with the London Symphony Orchestra and London Voices, no less!)

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It's a very nice score, but a bit much bombast (with some truly wonderful highlights). In the end, it's primarily an action score and only secondarily a pirate score. Like the movie - the difference being that the movie fails for that reason.

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and so does Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World.

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I have yet to see/hear that.[/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot recommend MASTER AND COMMANDER highly enough. You're right that it doesn't have an incredible amount of original score since, as Peter Weir seems to favor recently, it contains a mix of original and source material, but it's an absolutely brilliant film, one of the most satisfying adventures in recent years.

(edit: sorry, guys, I screwed up the coding)

[Message edited by Mike Skerritt on 06-21-2006]

TimT was bothered by the organ, and someone else posted that only because Hans Zimmer is scoring the film that he, and he alone, can get away with it (anyone else, apparently, would be replaced; a ridiculous argument, of course). Zimmer used an organ in The Thin Red Line, and no one complained there.

And it isn't an unknown reason why Morriconne's organ-centered action/suspense music sounds lame in Mission To Mars. It sounded so cheesey onscreen and didn't function well, at all, with the visuals.

"It's [CutThroat Island] a very nice score, but a bit much bombast (with some truly wonderful highlights). In the end, it's primarily an action score and only secondarily a pirate score. Like the movie - the difference being that the movie fails for that reason."

Aren't pirate movies supposed to be action movies? And aren't pirate/ship movies supposed to sound bombastic, like The Sea Hawk, perhaps? Forget the movie, it sucks, but the music is awesome.

"I have yet to see/hear that. From what I've read, there's not that much score in it. Of course, Gordon's Moby Dick is certainly among the best sea-faring scores of its decade."

Once again, I'm not complaining about the use of the organ in this--it's not a big deal--and yes, I fully understand there's an organ in the plot.

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Originally posted by sean:
TimT was bothered by the organ

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He complained about "a mix of organ and electric guitars". For a pirate score, I'd do the same, because of the electric guitars, not because of the organ.

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And it isn't an unknown reason why Morriconne's organ-centered action/suspense music sounds lame in Mission To Mars. It sounded so cheesey onscreen and didn't function well, at all, with the visuals.

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One of the most brilliantly scored moments of recent memory, and I truly don't understand why everybody complains about it. It's brilliant suspense by De Palma, and Morricone's odd, but perfectly fitting score makes it work. Yes, I'm serious.

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Aren't pirate movies supposed to be action movies?

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Captain Blood, The Sea Hawk, Pirates... they contain action elements, but they're not action movies overall. Sea Hawk a bit more than the others, but then I've never quite understood why Blood is considered the minor movie of the two; to me, it has more scope and more excitement.

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And aren't pirate/ship movies supposed to sound bombastic, like The Sea Hawk, perhaps?

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
One of the most brilliantly scored moments of recent memory, and I truly don't understand why everybody complains about it. It's brilliant suspense by De Palma, and Morricone's odd, but perfectly fitting score makes it work. Yes, I'm serious.

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Originally posted by Al:
Sean, you couldn't even take the time to see who posted the 'ridiculous argument' about Hans Zimmer and the organ?

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Oh, stop whinning, you're just mad that I didn't mention your name. lol

I'm now listening to Roving Mars, new documentary featuring music by Philip Glass. Here's a guy who is way more guilty of "signature sound" than Hans Zimmer, yet with each new work of his I am completely intrigued as they unfold... On the other hand, while I am genuinely excited about listening to a new Zimmer score for the first time, it's a matter of fact that I tire of them as they prod along towards the finish line. Too emotionally overbearing.... hence the draining.

Not really. It just made you look like an ass. But you probably don't care what other people think of you, so whoopty sh**. Moving on.

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Originally posted by Al:
"Oh, stop whinning, you're just mad that I didn't mention your name."

Not really. It just made you look like an ass. But you probably don't care what other people think of you, so whoopty sh**.

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HAHA ... well, I think I can make myself look like an ******* all on my own; no help needed from you. But, you're right, I don't care what someone—especially you, Al—on the Internet thinks of me. It's all good fun, chap. Lighten up, crazy man. The "lol" meant I wasn't actually serious.

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Zimmer still takes the cake over Elfman and Giacchino with his heavy-metal M:I theme statement at the start of the Bare Island action sequence: The music carries that action with a solid, loud mix.

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Elfman's and Giacchino's scores aren't really classics, nor are they amongst the best of their opus, but at least they paid hommage to M:I and respected its past. That's what Zimmer doesn't do. Never ever. And that's why I'd take Elfman's or Giacchino's approach over Zimmer's any day without thinking twice about it.

Same thing with Batman Begins; it's arguable whether Zimmer's sound is appropriate for the film, but statements like "Why should I write a sequel to anything? That's boring!" or "To be honest, I never even listened to them (Elfman and Goldenthal)" make him loathesome and justify every single disrespectful comment about him.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Same thing with Batman Begins; it's arguable whether Zimmer's sound is appropriate for the film, but statements like "Why should I write a sequel to anything? That's boring!" or "To be honest, I never even listened to them (Elfman and Goldenthal)" make him loathesome and justify every single disrespectful comment about him.

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Wasn't the director's brief to avoid ANY continuity with the previous films at all? Including music?

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Wasn't the director's brief to avoid ANY continuity with the previous films at all? Including music?

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People still don't realize that Batman Begins is a complete re-start to Warner's dying, Anton-Furst/Bo-Welch-orgasmic, nipple-suited-credit-card-carrying-franchise? Franz is right here; a lot of the music decisions in Begins rest in the arms of Christopher Nolan. And trust me, Zimmer's/JNH's score fit that film like a glove, even if it didn't pan out all that well on the album.

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
And trust me, Zimmer's/JNH's score fit that film like a glove, even if it didn't pan out all that well on the album.

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You mean they were both lame, useless and unwatchable/unlistenable? I agree.

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
Ouch Dink, you must not be a Bob Kane/Bill Finger, Denny O'Neill, or Jeph Loeb fan. I'm sure those are a couple of guys (living and dead) who would completely disagree with you on all fronts. It's too bad Kane never got to see his creation come to life as it should have while he was living; I'm sure he would have loved the Nolan film.

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Originally posted by sean:
Dinko likes the homo Batman more, apparently, with that shrilly Goldenthal brass work: yum!

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Originally posted by sean:
Dinko likes the homo Batman more, apparently, with that shrilly Goldenthal brass work: yum!

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The Goldenthal-scored Batman movies are pretty much unwatchable, but the scores are by far the best in the series to date. On the other hand, Batman Begins might be the best of the movies (the first Burton was nice, but odd, and not always in a good way; I still haven't seen his sequel), but the score is the weakest. It's not bad per se, it just doesn't do anything.

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Originally posted by scoreguy16:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by TimT:
[b]Oh Gosh! This is easily a 2 of 5 star score just from the clips. Its got a mix of organ and electric guitars, YUCK!

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man... perhaps there's a reason for the organ... I seem to remember there being an organ in both trailers for the film, I wonder if that has something to do with it... gosh, I just can't figure it out...

As for the electric guitar, when was the last time you heared an electric guitar in a pirates movie? Zimmer said he wanted to change things up a bit for this score.

I personally can't wait for it. I think the clips rock and I will be ordering this CD from Peter.

Clayton[/B]

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