MovieMusic.com Message Boards: Awesome.

Message Boards

Movie Soundtracks

Awesome.

Archive of old forum. No more postings.

Please visit our new forum, The MovieMusic Lobby, to post new topics.

Author	Topic: Awesome.

Shaun Rutherford Standard Userer	Better late than never. Gladiator composer Hans Zimmer is being sued by the Holst Foundation over claims the film's Oscar-nominated score is a copy of the late Gustav Holst's famous "Planet Suite." If the foundation win their claim for infringement of copyright they could make millions of dollars, because sales of the film's soundtrack have gone platinum. Despite Zimmer admitting on the album sleeve that he uses "the same language, the same vocabulary, if not the same syntax" as Holst, the music publishers who hold the copyright in Holst's works, J. Curwen & Sons have decided to take legal action. A Curwen spokesman says, "After a considerable period of discussion between the two parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the courts." The defense lawyer says, "Mr. Zimmer's work on Gladiator is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy of Mars. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener this claim has no merit." I like the "world-renowned" part. As if Holst's work isn't and he's just some Highway To Heaven composer or something. Shaun [Message edited by Shaun Rutherford on 06-12-2006]
posted 06-12-2006 04:55 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	Yeah, also, better sue John Williams for copying something for his theme for Schindler's List that is by some "classical" composer; James Newton Howard for being inspired by Vaughan Williams on Snow Falling On Cedars; James Horner for copying that guy Krakakraka on his main title/end title Aliens music and that other guy who's music was copied for the theme for Willow; sue John Williams for copying Galdiator in Revenge Of The Sith for the scene where Anakin and Padmé think of Russell Crowe's dead wife; oh and sue John Williams for being inspired by Holst and Wagner for his original Star Wars music; and sue James Horner for copying John Williams's theme from Schindler's List, which is already a rip off of something else that Michael Nyman is violently angry about; and sue John Williams again for copying Vaughan Williams in his music from Born On The Fourth Of July ... BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BORING. This is soooooooooooooooooooo stupid. Someone should tell those crackheads to take a chill-pill and/or get that poker outta their ass.
posted 06-12-2006 05:18 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	If anyone should sue James Newton Howard for SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS, it's Arvo Part. 'Evacuation' is a blatant lift of Part's 'Fratres for strings and percussion'.
posted 06-12-2006 05:23 PM PT (US)

moontrekker Standard Userer	This has been discussed in great length on the FSM board, I feel the same way as Blah Blah Blah, time to get a life guys. sd [Message edited by moontrekker on 06-12-2006]
posted 06-12-2006 06:23 PM PT (US)

Timmer Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by franz_conrad: If anyone should sue James Newton Howard for SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS, it's Arvo Part. 'Evacuation' is a blatant lift of Part's 'Fratres for strings and percussion'. Perhaps Sean was thinking more of the use of Vaughan Williams in Unbreakable and The Village?
posted 06-12-2006 06:39 PM PT (US)

joan hue Standard Userer	Hey Shaun, your presence is a welcome site. Stick around and post more often. You always give me a good laugh. Mom Joan
posted 06-12-2006 08:48 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Timmer: Perhaps Sean was thinking more of the use of Vaughan Williams in Unbreakable and The Village? No, there are parts of "Evacuation" from Snow Falling On Cedars that sound like Tallis Fantasia by Vaughan Williams ... I don't know the piece joseph conrad is talking about.
posted 06-12-2006 09:07 PM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	Ok. So now we're missing the Walton/Arnold estates because portions of Gladiator are much closer to Battle of Britain than The Planets.
posted 06-12-2006 09:10 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Dinko: Ok. So now we're missing the Walton/Arnold estates because portions of Gladiator are much closer to Battle of Britain than The Planets. Ok. So now who cares.
posted 06-12-2006 11:04 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	Young man up there - check out Arvo Part's FRATRES... you won't be thinking of Vaughan-Williams afterwards... quote: Originally posted by Dinko: Ok. So now we're missing the Walton/Arnold estates because portions of Gladiator are much closer to Battle of Britain than The Planets. Indeed. 'Battle in the Air'.
posted 06-12-2006 11:32 PM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by sean: Ok. So now who cares. Anyone who's not a Zimmerfreak.
posted 06-13-2006 07:07 AM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	I have to side with Sean and moontrekker on this one. Time to get a life. I hope they realize that this score has been available to listen to for six years now; and if they're just now realizing that Zimmer is riffing on Holst; something is seriously up with grubby, money-hungry fingers. And thanks Shaun for pointing out a reminder that Zimmer pays respect to Holst in the album's liner notes. quote: Originally posted by joan hue: Hey Shaun, your presence is a welcome site. Stick around and post more often. You always give me a good laugh. Mom Joan Now, Joan; you can't fool me. I know you're not Rutherford's mom! You both have different last names . . . unless he married into another name, sometimes women can be picky about that.
posted 06-13-2006 10:03 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by franz_conrad: Young man up there - check out Arvo Part's FRATRES... you won't be thinking of Vaughan-Williams afterwards... You keep writing that, and I'm sure you are correct, but I have no clue why you just won't accept the fact that it sounds like both pieces: [00:00-00:13] [00:24-00:49] [02:52-03:20] [04:29-05:07]; all those time placings in "The Evacuation" sound like Vaughan Williams's Tallis Fantasia, and I'm sure it ALSO sounds like that piece you're so determined about. NP: M:I-3 (Michael Giacchino) */***
posted 06-13-2006 10:11 AM PT (US)

Swashbuckler Standard Userer	I think that the Holst estate is going after Zimmer for two reasons; a platinum selling album makes this a very lucrative prospect, and because Zimmer has gone on record stating that he adapted Holst's "Mars," which means that it will be difficult to disprove the riff after his public statements.
posted 06-13-2006 11:08 AM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	The reason this is happening is because even through in the US, Holst's work is in the public domain, it isn't in Britain where it still had about 4 years to go before the copyright expired and the work would be in public domain. Also, the Holst Foundation tried to work out a deal with Zimmer but was not able to do so. The negotiations started a long while ago and recently failed to resolve the issue. Hence the suit. They are perfectly within their legal rights to bring this suit. I also assume that everyone who thinks this suit is wrong and waste of time also believes that film score composers should let their IP rights be violated whenever somebody feels like it. Should John Williams care if someone pinches his Jaws them for a porno film? Or how about if someone lifts passages from Patton and doesn’t credit or pay Goldsmith’s estate. I guess we should tell them to get the poker outta their asses and get a life. Ultimately, it will be up to the courts via expert witnesses (of which I doubt there are any on this board), to determine the merits of the case. As for those other cases of wholesale lifts by composers, it is probably too late. Unless action is taken when the copyright holder is first informed of the violation, the court often assumes that the copyright holder is not interested in defending his IP property and is effectively giving tacit permission for copyright violation. That is one of the reasons the Paramount gets so litigious when fans infringe on Star Trek and why Anne MacCaffery’s son had all fan fic pulled from the net. But if the cases have merit and they (composers who have been stolen from)can win they should absolutely pursue it. Maybe if this happened more often film composers would be more careful about the work they steal and claim as their own.
posted 06-13-2006 01:49 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by MWRuger: I also assume that everyone who thinks this suit is wrong and waste of time also believes that film score composers should let their IP rights be violated whenever somebody feels like it. Should John Williams care if someone pinches his Jaws them for a porno film? Or how about if someone lifts passages from Patton and doesn’t credit or pay Goldsmith’s estate. I guess we should tell them to get the poker outta their asses and get a life. I believe Sean brought this up earlier and how silly it would be even then; musicians have been riffing other's works for years. It's nothing new; but thanks for turning the boards into a courtroom lesson.
posted 06-13-2006 01:54 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by MWRuger: Ultimately, it will be up to the courts via expert witnesses (of which I doubt there are any on this board), to determine the merits of the case.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE> That's bullshi*t, I'm an expert witness with a P.H.D. in "Hans Zimmer Music" from the Academy Of Hans Zimmer. The so-called "Dean" of the Academy was Grand Dragon Klaus Badelt (a closet Nazi, I think). Anyway, I can test the merits of their case using my tried-and-true fakestra math equation to see if Hans Zimmer really did rip off Gustav Holst: as far as I can tell all those guitars, synthesizers, Russian male chorus, orchestra, and keyborads all playing the same notes at the same time DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT sound like Holst. Now, Mr. Kruger, go read my first post in this thread to gain a more bigger understanding of the titanic proportions of what's been typed here and what hasn't. And know that I have a P.H.D. in this business, you clown. [Message edited by sean on 06-13-2006]
posted 06-13-2006 02:07 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	What is an "expert witness" as it applies to this case? I believe everyone on this board could be a possible "expert" witness if the lawsuit is going after a violation based on the public recognition of Holst's music in Gladiator. The public is the witness, and here we all are. If the Holst Foundation can prove a great majority of the public recognize the music as Holst's, they score big points as long as they are the rightful owners cheated out of royalties. Realizing Zimmer's apparent public acknowledgement that much of Gladiator is an adaptation of Holst's "Mars" work, perhaps this is the core of the case. The music was adapted and not credited; credit is most certainly due if public admission exists by the author of the copied/borrowed/adapted work, yet the official credit admits nothing. If by "expert witness" you mean finding a psychologist who can convince the court that Zimmer was mentally unstable when he admitted his public claims about adapting Holst's music, yep. I doubt any of us could play that role, although I do know a few people around here who think Zimmer may be completely mental all the time... but that's in relation to his pen, not his mouth.
posted 06-13-2006 02:13 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	I have a P.H.d. in ass-kickery.
posted 06-13-2006 02:13 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: What is an "expert witness" as it applies to this case? I believe everyone on this board could be a possible "expert" witness if the lawsuit is going after a violation based on the public recognition of Holst's music in Gladiator. The public is the witness, and here we all are. If the Holst Foundation can prove a great majority of the public recognize the music as Holst's, they score big points as long as they are the rightful owners cheated out of royalties. Realizing Zimmer's apparent public acknowledgement that much of Gladiator is an adaptation of Holst's "Mars" work, perhaps this is the core of the case. The music was adapted and not credited; credit is most certainly due if public admission exists by the author of the copied/borrowed/adapted work, yet the official credit admits nothing. If by "expert witness" you mean finding a psychologist who can convince the court that Zimmer was mentally unstable when he admitted his public claims about adapting Holst's music, yep. I doubt any of us could play that role, although I do know a few people around here who think Zimmer may be completely mental all the time... but that's in relation to his pen, not his mouth. "expert witness" = sean. Obviously. Come on, Peter, you know that! HAHA
posted 06-13-2006 02:14 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	And by the way, my username does NOT imply that I am in any way, psychologically impaired; as Peter suggested. I just like Marco Beltrami a whole lot. NP> Beltrami's The Omen (***/***) [Message edited by nuts_score on 06-13-2006]
posted 06-13-2006 02:15 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Nutso, stop now. You are digging a hole with some deep shadows at this point.... Sean, yes. You are the first expert witness in line. I didn't think it would take long. Ok, gentlemen of the jury. I just got an email from Hans Zimmer's legal army demanding I edit out all mention of "Holst" "planets" and "mars" from the Gladiator comments and reviews page!!!
posted 06-13-2006 02:21 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	Beltrami just sent me a bookbag because I like The Omen so much. Product placement rocks. But this just in from the legal department, apparently some elements in his The Omen score sound too much like Jerry Goldsmith's similarly titled The Omen score; in vigorous question is track number 20, titled "Omen 76/06". I sure hope Marco pulls out of this okay. [Message edited by nuts_score on 06-13-2006]
posted 06-13-2006 02:26 PM PT (US)

Foobsie Standard Userer	quote: Ok, gentlemen of the jury. I just got an email from Hans Zimmer's legal army demanding I edit out all mention of "Holst" "planets" and "mars" from the Gladiator comments and reviews page!!! [/B] PeterK: Really, could you post that online?
posted 06-13-2006 02:28 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	Foobsie = Insane.
posted 06-13-2006 02:30 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	A bookbag, LOL. Foobs, I'm just kidding...
posted 06-13-2006 03:05 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	But here's the email anyway: quote: To wern it may concern at moviemusic.com, the home of sonderlinge who dominaten search engines der welt for zee term "movie soundtracks": Our vater, Herr Hansiepansie Von Zimmertron, has reqvested you verboten all werds in bezug auf the incomparable Gustavo Holst, der beste komponis our vater strebt zu sein through crime. You haf been noted by werden.
posted 06-13-2006 03:14 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: But here's the email anyway: [quote] To wern it may concern at moviemusic.com, the home of sonderlinge who dominaten search engines der welt for zee term "movie soundtracks": Our vater, Herr Hansiepansie Von Zimmertron, has reqvested you verboten all werds in bezug auf the incomparable Gustavo Holst, der beste komponis our vater strebt zu sein through crime. You haf been noted by werden. Best. Post. By. Peter. Ever.
posted 06-13-2006 03:30 PM PT (US)

Thor Standard Userer	Well, it's nice that you're all having fun...
posted 06-13-2006 03:33 PM PT (US)

Christian Kühn Standard Userer	Yes, it is. I heard people who don't have fun don't have a very long life expectancy, Thor. I should reconsider my options, if I were you.
posted 06-13-2006 03:42 PM PT (US)

mathew Non-Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: But here's the email anyway: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1> To wern it may concern at moviemusic.com, the home of sonderlinge who dominaten search engines der welt for zee term "movie soundtracks": Our vater, Herr Hansiepansie Von Zimmertron, has reqvested you verboten all werds in bezug auf the incomparable Gustavo Holst, der beste komponis our vater strebt zu sein through crime. You haf been noted by werden. <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, what is this? It sounds more like dutch than german...
posted 06-13-2006 03:48 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	It's Afrikaans, actually.
posted 06-13-2006 03:55 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by sean: You keep writing that, and I'm sure you are correct, but I have no clue why you just won't accept the fact that it sounds like both pieces: [00:00-00:13] [00:24-00:49] [02:52-03:20] [04:29-05:07]; all those time placings in "The Evacuation" sound like Vaughan Williams's Tallis Fantasia, and I'm sure it ALSO sounds like that piece you're so determined about. This isn't about acceptance man! I know it sounds like Vaughan-Williams (whose 'Lark Ascending' appears once or twice in SNOW too), but you won't think twice about what the temp track for 'Evacuation' was when you've heard the Part. Add to that, the Part is simply a great piece of music you should here.
posted 06-13-2006 04:00 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: It's Afrikaans, actually. Hmm, could've fooled me. I thought it was in Esperanto.
posted 06-13-2006 04:48 PM PT (US)

Thor Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Christian Kühn: Yes, it is. I heard people who don't have fun don't have a very long life expectancy, Thor. I should reconsider my options, if I were you. What are you talking about?
posted 06-13-2006 04:49 PM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	By expert witnesses I mean musicologist and recognized experts in musical phrasing and language who are able to testify as the validity of the claims. It may or may not sound cut and dried to us, but to prove it court requires credible witnessess and preponderance of evidence. Yes Sean, I read your post. I don't know if those quoted pieces were still protected under copyright or not. My comments about "I guess we should tell them to get the poker outta their asses and get a life." were meant to be taken sarcastically. I don't think it is out of porportion to find this case as interesting as the claims about LoDuca not giving credit to his ghostwriters. I don't see the harm in taking the issue seriously. Not everything in life is a joke.
posted 06-15-2006 05:39 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	"Our vater, Herr Hansiepansie Von Zimmertron, has reqvested you verboten all werds in bezug auf the incomparable Gustavo Holst..." Sounds like Andre Lux to me.
posted 06-15-2006 07:06 PM PT (US)

Foobsie Standard Userer	Why don't we call in that Zimmerito fella as an expert witness for the defence... FoobsZ
posted 06-16-2006 10:06 AM PT (US)

John C Winfrey Standard Userer	As Nixon used to say when asked a question "Let me say this about that. As long as I am President of these great United States, Betty and Barney will have the right to have those apple halves and orange halves." and he never answered the question. About the Zimmer thing above, well, no comment. Best, J.
posted 06-16-2006 03:40 PM PT (US)

Old Infopop Software by UBB