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Author	Topic: danny elfman overrated?

zimmerito Standard Userer	this year i was really surprised by charlie and the chocolate factory.I really like this score. I have to say i'm not a great elfman fan.I like very much black beauty,sommersby and edward sjhijlkj-hands( :P ) But with some objectivity i see how this guy always compose the same thing(and he is not attacked like hans zimmer is). he put choral and great orchestral arrangements just for hide his incapacity for create a coherent theme. he just can compose 2 kind of scores : 1-gothic-loud scores (sleepy hollow -batman) 2-uninspired dramatic scores(a civil plan-good will hunting) I don't know how a guy who always is composing the same thing and his themes are not very memorable(just a few in his early days) is so much loved. sorry guys.is my opinion after listening Corpse bride and after years reading posts from elfman's fans. NP:black beauty.
posted 09-23-2005 01:03 AM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by zimmerito: he put choral and great orchestral arrangements just for hide his incapacity for create a coherent theme. I don't know how a guy who always is composing the same thing and his themes are not very memorable(just a few in his early days) is so much loved. Don't take this too personally, but are you deaf or are you just posting this create a polemic? Because what you said there about Elfman & themes makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
posted 09-23-2005 07:53 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	I agree with Dinko, it's hard to see your point zimmerito. By the way, good to see you back and in full crazy swing again. NP: Batman Returns (Danny Elfman) ***/***
posted 09-23-2005 08:04 AM PT (US)

zimmerito Standard Userer	my point its just i want to know if im the only one thinking elfman is overrated. I don't writte any post for start polemics. thanks sean..i'm happy to see you too. Np:the egyptian(herman-newman)
posted 09-23-2005 08:08 AM PT (US)

johnmullin Standard Userer	Well, Elfman is probably one of the biggest composers working today, seecond only to John Williams. In the sense that he's so highly rated to begin with then, yes, he probably is _over_rated on some level. Now that that meaningless term is out of the way, I should say that I really love his music and I think that in the last couple years he's been doing things better than he ever has. I haven't really gone nuts for the CORPSE BRIDE CD yet, but I thought the CHARLIE album was brilliant and one of the most inventive scores he's ever come up with. It terms of everything sounding the same, I think that that's something that just about every composer is guilty of; John Williams always sounds like John Williams, Thomas Newman always sounds like Thomas Newman, Silvestri always sounds like Silvestri, et al. All of those guys are also certainly no slouches when it comes to their music, but each does have certain signatures that pop up all over what they do. Bernstein, Goldsmith and Herrmann all had very clear musical signatures as well, and I don't think it hurt their music a bit.
posted 09-23-2005 09:09 AM PT (US)

workaluk Standard Userer	Actually in Danny Elfman,the only thing i like in his scores are the themes,which in my opinion,are quite memorable,the rest of the scores it's just "filling space music",with a few exceptions of course... NP-The House Of Sand And Fog (J.Horner) Nuno Cunha [Message edited by workaluk on 09-23-2005]
posted 09-23-2005 09:35 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	Elfman is about as overrated as Zimmer. Both did some nice scores and plenty of annoying stuff (Elfman perhaps less so than Zimmer, but I still don't know of many great Elfman scores). Spider-Man was rather annoying, and I'm glad to see Chris Young possibly taking over.
posted 09-23-2005 09:55 AM PT (US)

gkgyver Standard Userer	I can definitely see zimmerito's point. I greatly admire Elfman for just being a guy who does what he loves to do, without any formal musical education. I don't think he's overrated, lots of people just don't like what he's evolved into. He used to write excellent, excellent scores back in the 90s, like Batman, E. Scissorhands, Nightmare Before Christmas, Black Beauty and so on. The problem with him today is that his recent scores are mainly patchworks of his well- known classics, with a new love for minimalism. He hasn't "lost it", definitely not. Spider- Man was his most original score since ... I don't know when (sorry, Marian ! Concerning Charlie: I absolutely don't understand why some people are going nuts about this one. On the contrary, I think it's by far the most self- plagiarising score Elfman has ever written.
posted 09-23-2005 11:36 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Go figure. I'm loving Corpse Bride but didn't get all that into Charlie (though I really enjoyed it in the film).
posted 09-23-2005 04:19 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	When I saw zimmerito's name I knew this was going somewhere; the intensity of brawl resulting in just the title of the thread was enough for, but his name was icing on the top. It is good to have you back bud (you're not gonna change your opinion on this one, are you?). But in terms of Mr. Oingo-Boingo (the most popular of its ex-members, I myself love the work of Richard Gibbs), I think his is a bit overrated; but my thoughts only go to a few of his scores. Take for instance, Batman, that is one hell of an overrated score; always has been and always will be, no matter how much better the Zimmer/JNH collaborations get in the future installments. Don't get me wrong, I own both Batman and Returns; but you would honestly be hard-pressed to see me reach for them before a lesser Elfman score like Red Dragon, which is my favorite Elfman score because it a great, HONORABLE tribute and homage to Bernard Herrmann. So, relax zimmerito, I'm in the boat just a little with you. I would say that the man is overrated for his known work (outside of us and others like us) and underrated for his not-known work.
posted 09-23-2005 08:51 PM PT (US)

Scorro Standard Userer	For me Elfman has always been one of those acquired tastes that I didn't acquire. The only title of his that I have kept is Sommersby, which I do like but don't listen to much. It has his bouncy, free wheeling signature style overlaying a dramatic folksy framework. BTW, the premise of the Sommersby movie screenplay was beyond reasonable acceptance. Elfman's music seems erratic to me... talented in its construction, but not my cup of tea for general listening. [Message edited by Scorro on 09-24-2005]
posted 09-24-2005 12:10 AM PT (US)

Timmer Standard Userer	Apart from Sommersby, Black Beauty and a handful of others I just don't like much of Elfman's music with it's lets see how many notes we can crunch and have them busy getting nowhere and pointlessly. Red Dragon is one of the worst examples of over scoring I've heard in recent times and half decent films like Spidey & Spidey 2 are ruined by his incessent and irritating sound. And anything with that cringe making la la la la la choral sound drives me frigging nuts! I've bought nothing of Elfman's since Mars Attacks and don't see myself rushing to get anything new in a hurry.
posted 09-24-2005 08:00 AM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	In all actuality, The Hulk, is one of the better superhero-movie scores to come about in recent years. Personally, I think it's Elfman's best take on the genre and the theme is quite memorable. Plus, you can sense a lot of the rejected Danna material oozing through the tracks. It's all very different for Elfman, and, get this, NO CHOIR!
posted 09-24-2005 10:13 AM PT (US)

Timmer Standard Userer	Ahhhh shows how crap my memory is as I did get HULK (it was very cheap!)....it's not bad at all really, his style fits better in this than both Spidey films.
posted 09-24-2005 10:38 AM PT (US)

johnmullin Standard Userer	Yeah, it seems like HULK was probably nearer and dearer to his heart that SPIDER-MAN really was. I was totally blown away by HULK, the film, when I first saw it; I couldn't belive how dark it was and I loved that for the whole movie, we were essentially seeing scenes between damaged children. Not knowing anything about the comic book, I have no clue how faithful it may have been, but as a film in and of itself, I thought it was mature and powerful and a little scary at times in the way that good sci-fi movies of the 70s used to be. My reaction doubly surprised me as I thought the trailer for the film was absolutely dreadful. Anyway, back to Elfman. I think he did an amazing job on the HULK score... I really like the Spider-Man 2 album, but there's something here that's so much more twisted and primal. It's funny to me that it's a last minute effort and yet it's still really good. I feel the same way about his superb MISSION:IMPOSSIBLE score which was done on a similar time frame and still probably goes down as one of his most creative. Just for a frame of reference, here are the scores I place at the top of my Elfman list. BATMAN RETURNS (1992) BLACK BEAUTY (1994) MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE (1996) THE FAMILY MAN (2000) HULK (2003) and I've been listening to SPIDER-MAN 2 more and more lately as well. The Doc Ock theme is so great... kind of a twisted take on the wolf theme from Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf. I like CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY, but the album just seems too short and and lacks a good narrative through-line for me. CORPSE BRIDE is good, but I haven't really gotten into that one yet.
posted 09-24-2005 11:40 AM PT (US)

BigT1981 Standard Userer	I don't think he's over-rated. He's not necesarly my favorite but there are some scores of his I do like. Batman Batman Returns Beetlejuice The Hulk Men In Black Men In Black II Planet Of The Apes Spider-Man Spider-Man II
posted 09-24-2005 12:53 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	Wow, it's good that The Hulk (both film and score) is getting the respect it rightfully deserves. I would say only Batman Begins and it can stand alone as the only comic book films actually geared more towards adults with their mature content and character and story driven narratives rather than fancy visual effects (nothing against Raimi's Spiderman films) to tell the tale. I would be a bit hestive before putting Singer's X-Men films here because there is still a lot of fodder there only to hold the youngster's attentions. I can't tell you how many kids were around me at both The Hulk and BB exclaiming about how bored they were, and I couldn't have been more joyous that I had grown up and was totally enthralled by the fact that I was watching a comic book film that had grown with me.
posted 09-24-2005 10:34 PM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	Well, as a comic book fan I can tell you that no filmmaker should ever try to please the fans of the book. It's not possible to cram 50 years of stories into a film without something contradicting some fan's favorite bit. You take the general story and tell it as fresh as you can and respect the material. That is all fans should expect. Make a good movie, don't fret about making a good comic book movie. Batman Begins Hulk Superman Spiderman 1 & 2 X-Men 1 & 2 Were all pretty good films with my favorite being either Spiderman 2 or Superman of the lot. (although both have some flaws)
posted 09-25-2005 10:30 AM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	I don't think he is overrated, although I did enjoy his earlier scores more than most of his recent ones. Before he went all textural and ambient, his themes were more strongly present and were boldly displayed. Now there seem more hidden and subdued amongst all the notes. It�s a valid approach, but I liked his less experienced more bold sound. I don�t think Batman is overrated at all. It is so closely identified with the character that it was used in the subsequent films and animated spin-offs. I would remind you all of the debate that took place when the new film was announced about the possibility of using the theme. It�s kinda like saying the Star Trek theme is overated.
posted 09-25-2005 12:26 PM PT (US)

Norman McCay Standard Userer	Ummm, Good Will Hunting is an uninspired score? Riiiiight.
posted 09-25-2005 03:20 PM PT (US)

zimmerito Standard Userer	yeeeesssss....it is. more unisnpired elfman scores : extreme mesures,the frighteners,a civil action,a simple plan,instinc,planet of the apes,red dragon....(And for me big fish) NP:fighplan (one time and no more)
posted 09-26-2005 04:09 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	I would say most of the scores you listed, especially A Simple Plan, are pretty inspired, seeing as how Elfman was inspired enough to experiment with different sounds and instruments as opposed to just using the same orchestral palette. I think your problem with them is how unconventional they are, which is fine, but I still say uninspired is not the word to use with most Elfman scores. I rarely buy any Elfman anymore simply because I like a little more melody than he delivers nowadays, but after hearing Corpse Bride, I went out and purchased his Mission Impossible score due to a recommendation in this thread, and I must say I'm enjoying it a lot (especially since it's been years since I've heard it in the film). [Message edited by Al on 09-26-2005]
posted 09-26-2005 10:55 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by zimmerito: [B]more unisnpired elfman scores : extreme mesures,the frighteners,a civil action,a simple plan,instinc,planet of the apes,red dragon....(And for me big fish) Actually, Frighteners has some nice moments (including the Omen parody right at the beginning). As far as I remember, I kinda liked Instinct in the film.
posted 09-26-2005 02:47 PM PT (US)

rkeaveney Standard Userer	THE FRIGHTENERS gets a bum rap. It was written for a film that disappeared from theaters (it's actually very good), it's a comedic horror score, and the MCA album is too short. There are a lot of neat cues left off the album that I think would have rounded out the experience. True, it's not an easy listen, but I think it's delightfully macabre and grating... In a good way! Ryan
posted 09-26-2005 08:44 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	I certainly heard a nice nod or two of Frighteners in Corpse Bride. Though in all honesty, it's probably just coincidence. "Doom" from Frighteners is a superb track.
posted 09-27-2005 12:12 AM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	Wow! Somebody else who likes the Frighteners! I thought I was the only one. I enjoyed the film and score even before that hack director did those three New Zealand epics.
posted 09-27-2005 09:33 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	Frighteners is a great movie, and I can't wait for the new DVD to come out. As I said, I think the score is nice. But I do believe it's too much at times (and too much of the same at that), not only on CD, but also in the film. My body....is a roooadmap of pain!
posted 09-27-2005 10:51 AM PT (US)

johnmullin Standard Userer	Yeah, I like THE FRIGHTENERS score as well. I agree with Ryan that the disc could use a couple extra cues to really be a solid listen (the cue from the museum, more music from the graveyard fight, etc.). But it's really great music and kinda one of those forgotten Elfman gems. My least favorite period of Elfman's music is 1997 - 2001. That's Good Will Hunting - Proof of Life or so. There are many scores in that period that I just find to be a little too unmemorable with no real strong theme tying everything together; It's well crafted music, but I never reach for the CDs. In there are scores like A CIVIL ACTION, INSTINCT, ANYWHERE BUT HERE, A SIMPLE PLAN, PROOF OF LIFE... There are a couple gems as well like THE FAMILY MAN (which is one of my favorites by him, really), but even the Burton scores that are in that period (SLEEPY HOLLOW and PLANET OF THE APES) aren't among my favorites. I think starting with SPIDER-MAN or so, he's really turned around and has been writing wonderful music again. In ways, I prefer his recent output to much of the music he was doing in the late 80s and early 90s... it's not as catchy, but it's more confident and sophisticated.
posted 09-27-2005 10:51 AM PT (US)

Luc Standard Userer	Definitely overrated. He should get the same amount of bashing as Horner does with regurgitation of themes and notes but don't.
posted 09-27-2005 11:04 AM PT (US)

Dinko Standard Userer	Same amount of bashing for Elfman as for Horner? I don't think so. *No one* deserves as much bashing as Horner for regurgitation and self-plagiarism (not even my second all time favourite Golden Age composer - Max Steiner). I don't know if you're confusing style and substance there. Horner has a style. And he just photocopies whole pages from previous scores and other composers. Elfman has a style, but he doesn't photocopy whole pages and certainly not on the same scale as Horner. quote: Originally posted by johnmullin My least favorite period of Elfman's music is 1997 - 2001. That's Good Will Hunting - Proof of Life or so. I think you're onto something. In retrospect, many of these scores seem like a transition between Danny Elfman 1985-1995 and the current Danny Elfman. He was experimenting with a different sound but couldn't quite get it. I did my share of Elfman bashing over that period, but I like a number of his recent scores. Although I'd add that many of his newer scores become long-lasting favourites after repeated listens. Sleepy Hollow was pretty bland when I first listened to it. I wouldn't want to be without it now. Same for a number of others during that period.
posted 09-27-2005 11:49 AM PT (US)

zimmerito Standard Userer	Luc.i think the same. I can'tunderstand. Now i'm reading corpse bride review at soundtrack.net and again 4 stars. I tried to heard this score 3 times and is a repetitive elfman fairy tale mode,but without any coheren theme. zimmer and horner always are attacked,but at least this 2 composers could compose a memorable themes in this recent scores. I can't understand.really. Elfman its just fireworks.In my modest opinion. NP:Loch ness.
posted 09-28-2005 04:30 AM PT (US)

Luc Standard Userer	quote: Same amount of bashing for Elfman as for Horner? I don't think so. No one deserves as much bashing as Horner for regurgitation and self-plagiarism First of all, let me say that I'm not into any composer being bashed. I'm only looking at what takes place on message boards. The reason Horner gets more is because his self-plagiarism are memorable whereas Elfman is not. Still, it's there, I'm not confused over style. If Elfman's repeating himself is style, then so is Horner's. A lot of criticism of Horner can easily be applied to Elfman. Now let me add that Elfman do have some great scores but the rest are just an extension of those few. I guess people said the same thing about Horner.
posted 09-28-2005 11:28 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Corpse Bride doesn't have any coherent theme? Did you hear the Piano Solo? This isn't Spiderman. It's pretty straightforward.
posted 09-28-2005 02:48 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	Sorry zimmerito; yesterday I stopped by Wal-Mart to pick up Newman's Serenity, but since they didn't have it I decided on two that I had missed out on, Elfman's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and The Corpse Bride. Both albums have gotten extended play in both my car and my home theatre system over the past two days. I kept my roommate up with Chalrlie and actually drove to my morning classes early to sit in my car and listen to Corpse. The guy has undeniable talent and like what was said by Dink is that Elfman has a style that translates to a great majority of his scores - particularly those attached to a Burton film - but he expands upon that style unlike Jimmy Horner, who basically - if he was in my college courses - would write the same essay over and over again.
posted 09-28-2005 10:10 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Wow, just viewed Corpse Bride. There are some magical (not the Disney kind!) moments that really kick up the dust when it comes to image and music. The piano solo and then later the duet was sublime. To say there is no coherent theme is understandable if all you love is Star Wars or Gone With The Wind for that matter. For the discernable film music freak like most of us, Victor's tune is a great and oft-used theme! I'd have to say the songs aren't as strong as Nightmare, but then again, it's pretty obvious that Nightmare is both Elfman's and Burton's crown jewel.
posted 02-02-2006 10:43 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	I've just been listening to Corpse Bride for the first time. I like it a bit more than Charlie (which felt a mickey-mousey for some reason). The band cues at the end and the piano duet are the best stuff.
posted 02-02-2006 10:59 PM PT (US)

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