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Author	Topic: What do you expect from Ottman's "Superman Returns"?

nuts_score Standard Userer	After my standard three listen judging, I have decided that "Fantastic 4" is worth the time of any score aficiando. Great, memorable themes. Decent track variety. Good running time. It's one-hundred times better than anything that Ottman wrote for "X2", IMO. On my third and final listen before writing this post, I began to think about Ottman's next big superhero project: "Superman Returns", directed by "X-Men" helmer Bryan Singer. I was wondering what all of you were expecting out of Ottman's score for such a revered project. Williams' score for "Superman: the Movie" was one of my first purchases after I realized that there is more out there than Hans Zimmer. The theme is still remarkable, thematic, and uplifting as much as it was during those opening main titles. Ottman has confirmed that he will be using Williams' main theme, which is a huge plus in my book. What I am hoping is that Ottman will only be re-using the main theme and nothing else. I want Ottman to write entirely new material to deal with a Clark Kent theme, a Metropolis theme, a Lex Luthor theme, and. of course, a love theme for Clark and Lois Lane. The love theme featured in "Fantastic 4" was somewhat omitted ungracfully from much of the Varese release of the score, but you can notice hints of it here and there. I'm hoping that we get a very prominent love theme throughout the "Returns" score, similar to "Across the Stars" from "Attack of the Clones". I want to hear completely original, new things after that Ottman's orchestration of the main theme, how about you? What about a Goldenthal-esque Metropolis theme? Would you like to hear more of a Magneto-like, or a Dr. Doom-like (a bit similar, but they still stand on their own), theme for Lex Luthor; or something completely different? Give me your thoughts.
posted 08-05-2005 12:06 AM PT (US)

Kris Standard Userer	It's a pitty they're using John William's theme. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great score, but I would've liked to see and hear something completely new. But that won't happen. I'm a bit scared it's going to be a lot of Williams reorchestrated by Ottman and Intrabartolo. Maybe I'm wrong and Ottman will write a lot of new stuff as you said, "nuts_score".
posted 08-05-2005 01:58 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	I'm glad you appreciate the Fantastic Four score. As far as most reviews I've read, this one seems to get a lot of undeserved negativity left over from X2. I'm not that excited about Ottman's Superman, because Williams's theme is going to be the backbone of the score, and if I cared to hear that, I could just listen to the original album. Of course, it just makes sense to use the original theme, and I'm sure that's what's best for the movie, but score-wise, I'm more interested in hearing a completely original work.
posted 08-05-2005 12:00 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	I like Ottman, although he doesn't always write music I like, and frankly he's got some big boots to fill with the Superman franchise, and big expectations, as well. Now, he could be one of those guys who says "damn the expectations, I'm gonna write what I want", but I don't think so...not necessarily. But I'm hoping that Superman will be one of the best things he writes, better than X2, which remains his best "comic book" score, and better than Incognito and Usual Suspects which are some of his best composing, (in my opinion only.) As they plan to incorporate Williams' themes, I say all the better. Even Mark Snow did that in "Smallville" and the effect was thrilling. So however they manage it, I anticipate the best.
posted 08-05-2005 02:54 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Lancelot, I'm interested to know why you think X2 is his best comic book score. I could probably give a few reasons why I think Fantastic Four is a better listen, but for me it all stems down to the fact that I prefer the more light-hearted tone of it, but then again, Ottman's X2 score had a lot more dramatic weight to carry. Just curious.
posted 08-05-2005 04:33 PM PT (US)

Foobsie Standard Userer	/me expects CRAP! TOTAL CRAP! Both visually and audible aspects. My official standpoint is that certain movies SHOULD NEVER AGAIN be made. Hollywood is in a buzz of remakes, producing flicks with terrible quality. Art is gone, yet remains in one of the few original movies like "I heart huckabees", "crash" and "mysterious skin". SUPERMAN is such a classic and should remain as is. Batman Begins should never have been made in the first place. The gap between the orginal comic and first Tim Burton flick was sufficient enough to foster all possible imagination... Looking back at the career of Mr. Ottman I see him twirling down the path of original score writing and musical quality. Don't get me wrong... I supported Ottman and even have his early promos. Ottman is best in genres such as "The usual suspects". The superhero/comic is not his area. Leave that to John Williams, Danny Elfman and Jerry Goldsmith. FoobsZ NP: SPIDER-MAN (complete/2CD) Danny Elfman
posted 08-05-2005 05:52 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Al, perhaps the reason you stated--dramatic weight--is the reason I think X2 is a stronger listen. I've had ]Fantastic Four in the player for a week, and I'm still musing over it. I had a fondness for the Kamen score, really, but it took some getting used to, and I had to see it "in action" before I truly warmed to it. Ottman trumped the previous score with a bolder presentation of themes, as well as sly nods to Kamen's previous effort. Building on that, I think Ottman's score suceeds. I could be laughed at for saying such things --but then again, I'm kind of in a "Go ahead and laugh" zone--I'm going to say that the "unreleased" version of "Fantastic Four" (music by the Wurst Bros.)--if nothing else, did have a rather lovely--if somewhat oddly placed--score, and I'm still hoping to find a copy of their promo somewhere along.
posted 08-05-2005 06:47 PM PT (US)

rkeaveney Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Foobsie: NP: SPIDER-MAN (complete/2CD) Danny Elfman It ain't "complete". Ryan
posted 08-05-2005 07:04 PM PT (US)

TimT Standard Userer	So if this is called Superman Returns...then Does Superman leave after Superman IV? From what period in his life does this story take place? [Message edited by TimT on 08-05-2005]
posted 08-05-2005 07:56 PM PT (US)

zimmerito Standard Userer	An authentic piece of **** (again) NP:Linoheart
posted 08-05-2005 08:00 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Lancelot, I understand where you're coming from, and in the respect of building up where Kamen left off, Ottman does succeed, but really, Kamen wasn't allowed to contribute much thematic strength to his score anyway, so the fact that X2 has any clear recurring themes and motifs makes it a stronger score. Tim, I'm betting the movie disregards Superman III and IV. But then again, maybe we'll have a digital cameo of Richard Pryor pieced together from lost footage.
posted 08-05-2005 08:39 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by TimT: So if this is called Superman Returns...then Does Superman leave after Superman IV? From what period in his life does this story take place? [Message edited by TimT on 08-05-2005] I'll answer this one for you Tim: Bryan Singer has gone on the record as saying that this film will be a loose sequel to "Superman 1&2" and he will completely ignore the last two. He said that there are aspects of the world, story-wise, that he will be using; yet he will be using a fully-bald Luthor and a completely comic-faithful Metropolis. So far the story being passed around is this: After Superman gives up his powers for the life of Lois Lane during the General Zod battle from "Superman 2", he retreats to discover his home planet of Krypton. In his absence, Lois Lane finds new love in Daily Planet editor Perry White's son, James. After some years together, the two have a child (it's still not fully confirmed if the child is theirs' together, or his from a previous relationship. Either way, I'm totally against Lois Lane re-discovering love in the absence of Clark Kent/Superman; only for the reason that Lois will always know that no matter what, Supes will always return to Earth) and Lois writes a piece titled "Why We're Better Off Without the Man of Steel"; apparently she wins a Pulitzer. Anyways, after a five (?) year hiatus, Superman returns to Earth to find that Luthor controls all of Metropolis and the whole Lois-James White affair. Singer has said that this story, "is what it's about when old boyfriends come back." I am against this film, but I am awaiting to see the return of the big blue Boy Scout to the silver screen as he is, and will always be, my favorite superhero simply because he is the original and remains the moral barometer of all comic books (sorry to get all geeky on you). Two years back I began to imagine my own plotline for a Superman movie - one that completely restarted the franchise, I even wanted a new theme written and I had Danny Elfman and John Ottman in mind - but I abandoned it when this movie went into pre-production. It was sort of my dream project, but now I have to find a new one. I was psyched about Singer taking on this project, but couldn't help but feel let down when he said he would be continuing from the first two films, which were made nearly three decades ago! In fact, the only thing that really has me interested in this film is the idea of Ottman scoring (I have become a bigger fan of his simply after listening to "Fantastic 4"). I am interested in how he will arrange and orchestrate the main theme, as well as the new material (hopefully an amazing love theme), but other than that, I won't be clamoring into the theater on opening day. The new Superman suit is feels very off the point, the plot reaks of new-age love story, and the idea that this is a continuation of a very flawed (for a huge Supes fan as myself) film franchise.
posted 08-05-2005 09:58 PM PT (US)

TimT Standard Userer	But didn't Krypton blow up in the first movie? This movie sounds like its going to be a mess. It reminds of the Highlander movies where each sequal completely ignores the rules set in the previous film. As for Ottman scoring this....well after Fantastic Four I think they got the wrong man for the job. I bet he was just hired do to a relationship with Singer, and not for his skills and qualifications. I'd like a James Newton Howard Superman score though! [Message edited by TimT on 08-05-2005]
posted 08-05-2005 10:13 PM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	Yeah Tim, Krypton was destroyed; and Singer has admitted that he doesn't have a great understanding of the mythology. Actually, Ottman is on purely for his relations with Singer; he'll be editing and scoring the motion picture. Now a JNH Superman score, that's something to ponder. He would be free from HZ pulsing synths and after "Unbreakable" I would love to hear James tackle a hero on Superman's scale alone. I was also thinking about a "Final Fantasy"-influenced Goldenthal, a Beltrami score in the vain of "I, Robot", a Tyler score reminiscent of "Timeline", an Elfman score along the lines of "Hulk", or an Ottman score with echoes of an original, Goldsmith-inspired theme a la "Fantastic 4". I think that a Don Davis score would be the real cat's meow. Something on the level of "Neodammerung"; but dare I say, MORE EPIC! That was the deal with my Superman storyline. It was very musically-influenced. I couldn't help but imagine my ideas synched with the "Hulk", "Matrix Revolutions", and "I, Robot" scores. I even threw in a little Rob Dougan to the mix. I thought that Elfman's main "Hulk" theme fit so well with the character and the love theme in that is so prevailent that it really stuck as my Lois Lane/Clark Kent/Superman love triangle theme. And I imagined my sequence in which young Clark is first experimenting with his powers to "Hulk's Freedom". All of this reminising has me a bit depressed; I'm gonna go take my meds. [Message edited by nuts_score on 08-05-2005]
posted 08-05-2005 11:03 PM PT (US)

Timmer Standard Userer	I expect Ottman's Superman to be totally underwhelming just like nearly every other score he's done. Musically I can discern no 'real' musical talent in this composer, everything sounds like somebody else, the man has no original voice whatsoever! NP : Americans - John Barry
posted 08-06-2005 07:47 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	His originality to me is more present in his orchestration than in his themes. I don't always agree with it--some of the choir in Fantastic Four was badly placed--but it has a distinct quirky orchestral color to it. For instance, the themes in House of Wax are genre-standard fare, but the way he orchestrates them with lighter woodwinds eludes that he's in on the joke, and probably the only one.
posted 08-06-2005 11:31 AM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	So...Al....we agree? (or are you asking me for a challenge????!)
posted 08-06-2005 04:55 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	No challenge. I concede to an agreement. But when you're through musing over Fantastic Four, make sure to post your thoughts, and I'll prepare the dueling pistols.
posted 08-06-2005 10:32 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Well, let's hear your thoughts on Fantastic Four, yes?
posted 08-07-2005 12:02 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	I like that it doesn't demand close listening to enjoy, but it offers thematic nuance to those that do. Of course like other Ottman scores, it seems like a pastiche of greater composers, but he still has the skill to mold it all into a solid, well-rounded score. I also appreciate the careful touches he makes that raises the music from average to involving; those trumpet flourishes really lift the main theme. I like that the few synths used are integrated into the orchestra like Goldsmith or Elfman would do; the mimic of the blaster beam in his Doom material is killer (as well as are the Goldsmithian trombone blasts in "Battling Doom.") The few things I don't care for: -His writing for choir in the body of the score is sometimes unnecessary and at one point even sounds unintentionally humorous. -Some of the Elfman-inspired Doom material sounds just a little too haphazard and gets fairly grating. It may just be a fun summer adventure score, but that's precisely why I like it. There just aren't enough of them.
posted 08-07-2005 10:18 AM PT (US)

Jeron Standard Userer	I figured I'd chime in and agree with Al. I bought the Fantastic Four disc earlier today. Based on the things he's said about the music and after hearing a couple clips on iTunes, I felt my money would be well placed. Boy, was I right. To be completely honest, this really is one of John's best scores -- in a lot of ways, it tops X2. My only complaint about the album is that it's too short. Yes, as Al pointed out, some of the Doom material gets a tad bit grating, but even with that stumbling block in the "Battling Doom" track, it's still a terrific listen. Definitely worth repetition. Jeron
posted 08-09-2005 08:37 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Excellent, Jeron. I'm glad you agree. Now if Lancelot would only finish musing... And while I'm requesting opinions, if Mr. Shaun Rutherford could simply chime in with a yay or nay regarding the score, or a "ja" or "nein," I will be reasonably satisfied.
posted 08-09-2005 10:59 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	sorry...distracted with other topics at moment. will return when i can focus more attention on ottman.
posted 08-09-2005 11:13 PM PT (US)

Norman McCay Standard Userer	I, for one, thought Ottoman's Fantastic BORE was not worth my time. As far as superhero scores go, this one really didn't take itself seriously. It fell victim to the whole idea of "this is a COMIC BOOK movie and thus deserve a COMIC BOOK approach." Personally, I needed something that grounded itself more in reality (which is why I am not looking forward to Superman Returns). But then again, not having seen the Fantastic Bore, maybe Ottoman's score was appropriate for the movie. If anyone asks me, leave the film editing to Ottoman, but I think John Williams should probably just compose it himself, since Singer is so bent on using the original as inspiration anyway.
posted 08-13-2005 07:58 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Thinking of comic book movie scores that take an obvious comic book approach, which seems a pretty logical approach, I'd say Elfman's Batman and Williams' Superman belong in that category. They aren't completely serious themselves, certainly not the carnival-like Batman, as it clearly is reflected in both scores that the composers knew they weren't scoring Shakespeare. It just so happens that Superman's story called for some more dramatic writing, but the overall tone is still light like Ottman's. Fantastic Four is certainly dwarfed by these juggernaut scores, but it still has its own legs and stands well as a strong listen. I can see how someone who wants his music serious would dislike this score, but really, if you need something more grounded in reality, superhero music may not be your best bet.
posted 08-14-2005 09:07 AM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Based on...whatever...."mood", let's call it, I'm holding off judgemental analysis (or analytical judgement) on "Fantastic Four" indefinitely. (Besides being moody and prone to snapping--politely as possible--at folks, I'm also jittery about "Serenity". Get here, September, already!) However, I wanted to take issue with this: quote: "if you need something more grounded in reality, superhero music may not be your best bet. I would raise it one and say movie music may not be your best bet. The artist/would-be-filmmaker in me says movies are as real as you let them be. Putting non-source cues with any scene, actually, may be stretching reality, at best. I'm surprised at how much mood music they cram into these "reality" T.V. programs...to do what--enhance the reality? Does Trump really have that ominous bass thrumming behind his chair when he says "You're fired."...? (Actually, it would make him pretty cool if he did, but...this tangent sounds like Family Guy fodder, anyway.) Superhero movie or no, the music would serve the picture as long as it supports the belief within the picture. (e.g., a man can fly!)
posted 08-14-2005 07:55 PM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Well put. I suppose if the Fantastic Four score worked against suspension of disbelief regarding human torches and middle-aged men who are surprisingly flexible, then it would be a failure, but I think it works with the mood of the film, the overall presentation, which is one that means to be silly while also having characters with dramatic needs, and to musically aid in the continuity of this presentation, Ottman has to maintain some degree of balance. So I guess it all has to sound just a little silly.
posted 08-14-2005 10:38 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Themes in the new Superman...or lack thereof?
posted 08-20-2005 07:00 PM PT (US)

Southall Standard Userer	I must admit that my initial reaction when it was announced that Ottman would be using Williams's theme(s) - to much cheering from virtually everyone, it seemed - was to lose the iota of interest I had in this movie and score. I agree with Al near the top of the thread that it would have been far more interesting for Ottman to be allowed to come up with an original score rather than just paraphrase Williams. (For once, I disagree with Al about most of the things in this thread though. X2 was first-grade dreck and Fantastic Four, while considerably better, is still so lightweight and unambitious I can't see me ever listening to it again.) To read that interview with Ottman makes me fear even more for Superman. If the film's been temp-tracked with Solaris, it's a sure-fire bet that the score which ends up in the film is going to be heavily-influenced by Solaris (Ottman has never been a composer who cared about disguising the temp-track).
posted 08-21-2005 03:20 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Actually, James, I do think it's lightweight, and as far as originality, the score is certainly far from ambitious, but it's sort of refreshing to me for those reasons. I'm sure it has sounded like I've been singing its praises, but I just thought most of the negative comments to the score ignored a lot of things that Ottman actually did well. Besides, after hearing War of The Worlds, something fairly unambitious is comforting.
posted 08-21-2005 09:50 AM PT (US)

nuts_score Standard Userer	I also read that Ottman was using Cliff Martinez's "Solaris" and it also has me quite worried. I don't have the score release for "Solaris", but in the film I wasn't too fond of it; it didn't strike any chords with me. I believe Ottman used a lot of "Star Trek" - especially "The Wrath of Kahn - to synch and temp "X2" and it really shows. I think that as long as Ottman only uses the main theme, he could deliver on some additional themes that Williams never touced upon. After listening to "Fantastic Four" too much - I've become a bit tired of it, there isn't really enough material - I think that Ottman needs to focus on a villian theme that isn't solely based on heavy strings and choirs; it's almost like Klaus Badelt could've written it, but BETTER. I'd like to hear a theme for Lex Luthor that is similar to the cue Danny Elfman wrote in "Hulk" titled "Dad's Visit". I really want a sense of mystery and true cowardice. As for a Clark theme, I had in mind something along the lines of the Bruce Banner/love theme in "Hulk" but I can imagine something like what Ottman did for Jean Grey in "X2". But the love theme - let's not forget that this is the biggest theme of the film - should be very sweeping and epic; something along the lines of "Across the Stars" from "Attack of the Clones". From there on out, it's up to John (Ottman that is).
posted 08-21-2005 10:57 AM PT (US)

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