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Author	Topic: Battle of the Heroes!

BMikeJ Standard Userer	Sean, we've established that you are 21 years old, drinking age. So what I'm wondering is... do you take these strong opinions of yours with you to the local watering hole?
posted 04-06-2005 10:31 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Well, Sean, your (intial?) reading of my opinion is/was innacurate...I've played the ads several times just to hear the music. No one's looking forward to the final score release more than me, in ways that many will just not understand or be incredibly bored by my attempt explain.... ...and as for the rest, I've decided what my own opinion of the films, score, and the filmmaking process are, and I'll not add to the fracas by insisting that my views are the more enlightened.
posted 04-06-2005 11:30 PM PT (US)

Jeff78 Standard Userer	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Crono/Kyp: Blah, blah, blah, blah. It's called "STYLE!" (Lancy above me here got it right, why can't the rest of you) References, heh, style is more like it. And BigT, it's not so much the acting as it is the direction and script (but acting is an off shoot of the direction). I mean really, look at "A New Hope," "Phantom Menace," and "Attack of the Clones" ALL Lucas. Now, why is that "Empire and "Jedi" are so much better? Well for one, Lucas's didn't write anything, he did story and exe. produced, two good positions for him. I mean really, Kershner did a great directing job for "Empire" and Kasdan's script is bad ass. And for "Jedi," Marquand's directing is not that bad, but its better than Lucas. And once again, Kasdan writes, but the script is more Kasdan than Lucas (since they both share credit.) It's not that "Star Wars" is a bas series, it's just that Lucas's direction and writing is bland and boring. Visual effects don't make up for that and editing can only go so far. I'm a filmmaker myself, (editor mostly, but I have directed just so you know), and yes, it can be hard to direct actors. But, added to that, if the script is written well and the actors really know their character its cause for a better film all around. Lucas has a good grasp on visuals, but its writing and direction he just doesn't have. The truth of the matter is there are better directors and writers out there who could have brought these three new films up to be bad ass. I've known the ending chapter and what happens in this saga for a number of years and as a fan of the series (despite the Kirby stuff, I do like these movies), I hope Lucas does it right...but given his track record, I am reserving judgement, but I'm not holding my breath either. I grew up with these movies same as you, don't think you are the only one here who doesn't have a soft spot for the original trilogy. And now that I've grown up and have really looked at these movies, I feel more and more that it really does come down to Lucas doing both the writing and directing and of course the acting is linked to that. People are entitled to their own opinions, let them voice it with out getting all defensive. People bash "LOTR" and laugh because I listen to film score, does it bother me? Kind of, but I'm usually over it in a hurry. Jeff makes comments because that's how he feels, as do I. You called me crazy and didn't believe me when I brought up "The 4th World" and Jack Kirby, but it's all there if you do the research. Let go a bit man, it's all gonna be fun come May 19th. I mean hell, I'll be the guy at the midnight showing who yells during the "Long, long time ago" card "I love you John Williams!" --Brian [Message edited by Crono/Kyp on 04-06-2005]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE> Watch out Brian, they may burn you at the stake. Or atleast tie you to a pole and slap you with their plastic lightsaber toys while they make the "wooshing" sounds. [Message edited by Jeff78 on 04-06-2005]
posted 04-06-2005 11:37 PM PT (US)

Crono/Kyp Standard Userer	Lance...what internship? I applied for one at Pixar this summer myself. --Brian
posted 04-06-2005 11:38 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	I, too, applied at Pixar...
posted 04-07-2005 06:51 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by BMikeJ: Sean, we've established that you are 21 years old, drinking age. So what I'm wondering is... do you take these strong opinions of yours with you to the local watering hole? Drinking age in the U.S., you mean. The drinking age in Canada, where I live, is 19 (but 18 in Qu�bec�across the river). And it isn't "we" who've established my age ... it's you who has done so, and for whatever bizarre reason, you like to keep bringing it up. Are you new here at moviemusic.com, Mike? I've been coming here and posting here since this message board came to be (1998�1999, I believe), and the age of many people here has come up before, but to no great interest. (I find your unique interest in my age strange.) The point is: I blasted Brian's post and he has no idea how to counter it, and neither do you, Mike. NP: Steamboy (Steve Jablonsky) ***/***
posted 04-07-2005 08:21 AM PT (US)

Al Standard Userer	Wasn't Lucas into abstract visual films as a student? I've always understood that the sights on the screen were his main interest; so if I go to see Sith, I just expect a cinematic experience of his visuals and William's music, not bold storytelling.
posted 04-07-2005 08:36 AM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	According to your profile, you've been here about 4 months longer than me. I only bring up your age because you have some pretty strong opinions for a guy your age. In any case, they are your opinions and you are entitled to them. But opinions can change with time and maybe yours will or maybe they won't. I don't need to "counter" your post. I'm just kidding around. See the little happy face?
posted 04-07-2005 11:39 AM PT (US)

MWRuger Standard Userer	Young people usually have strong, passionate views. I was the same way at 20. I believed in things strongly and issues tended to devolve into black and white positions. You believe things with all your heart and are shocked when that is not enough to win through. It�s much easier to be strident and judgmental when life hasn�t kicked you in the teeth for a few decades. When you get older you tend to view things with more perspective. After all, you�ve generally seen it all before. There�s nothing wrong with youthful passion, it helps keep things from getting stale and encourages change and reflection. But it�s a mistake to confuse passion for wisdom. Everybody�s has an opinion and they are equally right for each individual, no matter how strongly you agree or disagree or even if you don�t give a fig. You can�t counter someone�s opinion, it�s right for them. You can only counter factual statements and Sean didn�t offer any facts to counter.
posted 04-07-2005 12:35 PM PT (US)

JoeinAr Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by jwb: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by sean: [b] <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by BMikeJ: [b]Natalie Portman is a great actor! [Message edited by sean on 04-02-2005]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE> She is - its just Lucas isn't a good director. jwb [/B] if Natalie Portman was a great actor/ress, then she can overcome a bad director, there are real greats out there do it all the time, she isn't one of them and she isn't great. and the 30 second clip was nothing to be excited over, just a bunch of fanboys without a sex life.
posted 04-07-2005 02:00 PM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	Another lurker comes out of the shadows.
posted 04-07-2005 02:37 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Makes you wonder who the truly pathetic are.
posted 04-07-2005 02:43 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by MWRuger: You can only counter factual statements and Sean didn�t offer any facts to counter. Facts: go watch the "Bonus Material" DVD attached with the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set this past fall, and pay particular attention to the "Empire of Dreams" documentary for all the information on the screenplay to Return of the Jedi; Lawrence Kasdan's involvement and suggestions of where the script should have gone but (thankfully) didn't; what Harrison Ford felt should be the death of his character; George Lucas's opinion of his writing skills; and his "silent film" ideas about the Star Wars films. The rest was my opinion ... you can also watch the Leonard Maltin interviews with George Lucas on the 1994 Star Wars Trilogy video release for further insight, MWRuger. (This is pretty basic stuff, man.)
posted 04-07-2005 03:34 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by BMikeJ: According to your profile, you've been here about 4 months longer than me. I only bring up your age because you have some pretty strong opinions for a guy your age. In any case, they are your opinions and you are entitled to them. But opinions can change with time and maybe yours will or maybe they won't. I don't need to "counter" your post. I'm just kidding around. See the little happy face?<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE> If you think I have "some pretty strong opinions" for a 21-year old, than I guess you don't know that many young people. Just looking at this thread, it's obvious that there are others who have stronger opinions than myself about Star Wars�Trent, for example. I know you're just kidding around, and that's why I don't take you seriously, like in that Kingdom of Heaven thread. And I never wrote that you needed to counter my post on the Star Wars films. I just wrote that you couldn't�it was meant for Brian, who obviously can't respond (his opinions tend to be pretty typical anyway). ps. Mike, notice the smily face on mine? lol [Message edited by sean on 04-07-2005]
posted 04-07-2005 03:43 PM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	Battle Of The Smiley Faces!!! [Message edited by BMikeJ on 04-07-2005]
posted 04-07-2005 04:05 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	When it comes to being a Star Wars FB, we're all 15. http://www.moviemusic.com/comic/archive.asp?117 http://www.moviemusic.com/comic/archive.asp?118 http://www.moviemusic.com/comic/archive.asp?119
posted 04-07-2005 09:47 PM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	hahahah Bravo! I love the befuddled and frightened look on JW's face!
posted 04-07-2005 10:22 PM PT (US)

Mark Olivarez Standard Userer	Star Wars (or a New Hope for those born after 1980) is the only film that can stand on it's own, it has a beginning and ending that I think can satisfy anyone watching it. Lucas managed to deliver a fantastic film in spite of the limitations of his budget and every other aspect of the film he regretted not being able to add. The Empire Strikes Back is the best film of the series in terms of story, acting and mood. It set up the premise for a fantastic ending that Return Of The Jedi did not deliver. Return Of The Jedi, while a fun film, gives us a glimpse of the problems that plague the prequels. Too much juvenile humor; burping comes to mind. The characters aren't that interesting anymore other than Luke, There's really not much for any of them to do once Han is rescued from Jabba, Boba Fett is wasted on a silly death. The visuals are somewhat sloppy, the acting is poor. Also Ewoks?????! The only bright spot, other than Williams' music, is Luke's confrontation with the Emperor. I have mixed feelings about how Vader is portrayed, going from one the most feared and evil villians in the galaxy to suddenly turning into a "hero" in the eyes of his son. I wasn't too enthused about Leia being Luke's sister either. The Phantom Menace is better than Attack Of The Clones because it feels like a Star Wars film and actually has a plot, minus Jar Jar and all of the fart, burping and juvenile humor that pops up thru the film. I almost believe that Lucas had no idea for a second film and bsically forced his way thru it so he could get to Episode III. Anakin's and Padme's romance is so forced and awkward it almost feels like Anakin is a perverted stalker and practically forces Padme to love him. TPM could have set up the premise for them to fall in love in a tastefull way by building on Anakin and Padme's friendship but for some odd reason didn't come close. There are some scenes that attempt to do so but there should have been a better effort on Lucas' part to strengthen that. I also believe that musically Williams had nothing to work with on AOTC other than the love theme. If it's true that Lucas planned to track in music from the TPM all along or even due to lack of time for last minute editing and Williams' involvement on Minority Report then it's possible he might not have had the chance to really develope or draw inspiration for the music the way he wanted too. ROTS will probably be the same as the other 2 prequels, maybe a little more violent, but in the end Anakin's journey to the darkside really hasn't been that interesting and could have been told in a 3 hour direct to video or made for TV movie. I will say I do love what I've heard so far from Williams score for Episode III. [Message edited by Mark Olivarez on 04-08-2005]
posted 04-08-2005 10:15 AM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	"Also Ewoks?????" Is that a argument or a question? Because either way, not only does it fail, but it also reiterates the same thing every disillusioned fan has been saying for two decades, but can only be explained by the it seems that most people who liked everything about Empire really hated the anything bordering "cute" about Jedi, and their follow up to that is "anything 'cute' doesn't belong in sci-fi (or any type of movies I like)." Which, again, is sort of an opinion or preference that isn't explained very well. (Note that Lucas is doing the same thing in Sith what he did in Jedi, building to a climactic battle with a race of technologically inferior hairy creatures. The big difference being that the latter are only about hip-high.)
posted 04-08-2005 10:55 AM PT (US)

BMikeJ Standard Userer	I really liked Return Of The Jedi at age 13. But as I get older, I like it less. The great thing about The Empire Strikes Back is that the stakes got raised. The characters now existed in an environment where anything could happen to them. They could die, lose an arm, etc. There is absolutely no reason why fans would be pleased that the next film was mostly the opposite of that, with cute, cuddly, waist-high creatures that can fart. Return Of The Jedi comes off as more of a rolling commercial for the merchandising machine than anything else. Apart from that, I think Jedi still has some good moments. It would have been really cool if they started Jedi like they did in the book, with Luke in Obi-Wan's hut...
posted 04-08-2005 12:23 PM PT (US)

Quill Standard Userer	I'm not going to add to the bickering, but here is nice review of the score itself: http://www.millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=74846#74846&sid=41ed20b57787492e7684ae9770f6cccf
posted 04-08-2005 05:04 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	I think what people will like most about this SITH score, at least the latter parts of the music, is the very strong musical connections to the classic trilogy. It's good to hear these themes in an all-new guise, and there's a feeling of "finally" as I listen to this stuff. I never felt much of a connection to these new Star Wars films or the music for them. But now, the classic music is back, the music that truly captured imagination... and so is the spirit of it all. It feels good. All we need now is a condensed symphony of Star Wars music, covering Episodes I - VI, running some 90 minutes (two 45 minute halves). This would blow away even the best Lord of the Rings symphony. A Star Wars Symphony would absolutely rule.
posted 04-13-2005 09:54 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: I think what people will like most about this SITH score, at least the latter parts of the music, is the very strong musical connections to the classic trilogy. It's good to hear these themes in an all-new guise, and there's a feeling of "finally" as I listen to this stuff. I never felt much of a connection to these new Star Wars films or the music for them. But now, the classic music is back, the music that truly captured imagination... and so is the spirit of it all. It feels good. You're right, Peter. I got that exact feeling listening to this new Star Wars score. It's written in the vein of the Star Wars sound that's so enticing and inspirational from the original trilogy. And it is done so with re-newed spirit and enthusiasm, and it is an inspiring score: the freshest and most exciting score from John Williams in one hell of a long time, IMO! NP: Revenge of the Sith (John Williams) ***/***
posted 04-13-2005 12:27 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: All we need now is a condensed symphony of Star Wars music, covering Episodes I - VI, running some 90 minutes (two 45 minute halves). This would blow away even the best Lord of the Rings symphony. A Star Wars Symphony would absolutely rule. Speaking as a conflicted fan of both trilogies, I think Williams would have to put a lot more effort into that suite than his end credit suites of late if he were to match Shore's incredible symphony. The First Movement of Shore's alone is an incredible experience. I think Williams should - like Shore - take 2 hours, not 90 minutes. There's enough good themes.
posted 04-13-2005 03:49 PM PT (US)

mlw Standard Userer	wow can't wait. in the end I like each of the movies the same as all the others. it never deviates from the mix of pluses and minuses. 1977 had fun and innovation but corniness and dumb acting. 1980 had wonderful story and direction but goofy hand puppets. 1983 had lots of energy and a better luke portrayal, but lucas' direction of all the foam monsters was the same as in 1977, corny. 1999 had the single best action scene from any star wars movie (darth maul) but had fitful energy, sometimes none. 2002 was a nice detective movie but the fights were lame-- yoda fights! what cheese! it all evens out. the music is a long form tapestry over all the films with specific modular components adding up- too bad Williams isn't Howard Shore and it isn't Lord ofthe Rings, cuz then it would be all automatic five star reviews and unquestioned worship of each single note.
posted 04-15-2005 02:02 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by mlw: too bad Williams isn't Howard Shore and it isn't Lord ofthe Rings, cuz then it would be all automatic five star reviews and unquestioned worship of each single note. Yeah it's not too bad that The Lord of the Rings movies all suck ass, and it's great that John Williams is John Williams and not Howard Shore. I would question highly anyone's worship of ANYTHING Lord of the Rings�forget Star Wars and Star Trek fans, but Lord of the Rings fans, they're the scary ones! Shore's music: good stuff, with much blandness�he had a tough job writing for those hippie movies, and he did his best. NP: Revenge of the Sith (John Williams) ***/***
posted 04-15-2005 02:56 PM PT (US)

rkeaveney Standard Userer	Sean do you live in Ottawa? I'm just trying to unravel the mystery behind your bitter inferiority complex. Ryan
posted 04-15-2005 03:16 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by rkeaveney: Sean do you live in Ottawa? I'm just trying to unravel the mystery behind your bitter inferiority complex. Ryan haha, very funny Ryan. My last post was a joke, in case you weren't paying attention to a post you were responding to.
posted 04-15-2005 06:06 PM PT (US)

Quill Standard Userer	Well...I have just about rounded up all of the tracks and I love the way this score is coming together. I can only guess that my "feeling" for the music will improve even still after tying the images with it. Highlights thus far is the militaristic rendition of the force theme in the first track and all of "Obiwan versus Anakin." This track seems to musically bridge the two trilogies (both thematically and stylistically). Yes...yes...certain pieces are direct pulls from ESB, but in the context of the scene that should work brilliantly. I've just got to keep the volume down at the office!
posted 04-19-2005 10:44 AM PT (US)

Ken S Standard Userer	Has John Williams ran out of good titles for his compositions? "Battle of the Heroes" doesn't sound heroic at all. "Battle of the Notes" would be more appropriate. Furthermore I end up always humming the magnificent "The Turbulent 60's" from NIXON when hearing just a bit of this so-called "theme" named as "Battle of the Heroes". Anyway, after reading quite many of these MM threads about the latest and last SW chapter, I think I'll have to drag my body into a theatre at some point and give the movie a fair chance... KEN
posted 05-17-2005 01:12 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Ken S: Has John Williams ran out of good titles for his compositions? "Battle of the Heroes" doesn't sound heroic at all. "Battle of the Notes" would be more appropriate. Furthermore I end up always humming the magnificent "The Turbulent 60's" from NIXON when hearing just a bit of this so-called "theme" named as "Battle of the Heroes". Anyway, after reading quite many of these MM threads about the latest and last SW chapter, I think I'll have to drag my body into a theatre at some point and give the movie a fair chance... KEN Yeah ... wow ... poor you.
posted 05-18-2005 10:25 AM PT (US)

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