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Topic: The ululating female vocal.....
PeterK
FishChip
Interesting article on the now very common wailing vocal that dominates the big movie scores these days:
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2004/05/25/wails/
Do you agree? Does it matter?posted 05-25-2004 08:46 AM PT (US) Al
Standard Userer
It's one thing to hear a female wailing in bed for over an hour, but quite another for the fall of Troy.But seriously, what was the female vocal in Troy supposed to represent? The landscape? It didn't seem to make an appearance where it would really matter. Of course, this is no surprise, as the film was a sloppy mess of storytelling.
Even James Horner, who can usually at least fit a formulaic score in all the right places, misses the mark in a surprising number of places: The theme for Achilles is entirely too upbeat for him basically being a villain. The synthesized choir for the funeral scenes evokes next to no emotion. The most emotion in the score comes from the almost-Stargate love theme that pops up over the end, but it comes across surprisingly bland for Horner. The fact that he had very little time to score the film doesn't offer much of an excuse. If there had to be any slacking off of any kind, it seems he would focus on the key scenes first, giving them the most attention, and then composing a synthesized choir theme for something less important--not for funeral scenes.
There were moments which worked though. The Troy fanfare was impressive in the opening procession and during their first victory, but when it boldly plays during a simple pan across a temple with barely anything occuring in the shot, it's way too much for nothing. The percussion-only scoring of the battle between Achilles and Hector was right-on, but then again, the sound clip Yared provides from his score does basically the same thing.
While the sloppiness of the film is most likely the reason for the awkward qualities of Horner's score, it doesn't change my opinion that he didn't hit the right moments with just the right tone as he usually has a talent for doing.
posted 05-25-2004 09:21 AM PT (US) Ron Pulliam
Standard Userer
I agree with the article.I thought it was too much the first time I heard it.
That it means nothing -- and has no basis in anything remotely genuine -- ought to make it perfect for mindless films...but I thought "Gladiator" the best film with the worst score I'd ever seen.
The ululating wail has achieved parity with the everpresent, overtly misused uillean pipes.
[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 05-25-2004]
posted 05-25-2004 10:32 AM PT (US) HAL 2000
Standard Userer
It's trendy and for that reason has little longevity. I've been sick of the whole idea of ethnic stylings as a substitute for musical solidity for a long time. It's fine when it means something but when it's there only to sound "cool" and non-traditional it becomes as cliché as anything else. If you go by the scores in too many Hollywood movies these days you'ed think they all have some narrative connection to Ireland or India.The article is spot on.
posted 05-25-2004 11:40 AM PT (US) Hector J. Guzman
Standard Userer
If the wailing vocals is the fashion, I'm not very happy about that.
posted 05-25-2004 12:05 PM PT (US) HadrianD
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Pulliam:
but I thought "Gladiator" the best film with the worst score I'd ever seen.
I disagree.The use of Gerard's vocal was thoughtfully restrained, serving as a motivic device for emphasizng the soulful side of Crowe's character. Hans's score is considerably superb in a comparison with Horner's Troy. It's necessarily newage and contemporary because the theme was new agey and contemporary. The use of if it in Troy was way, Way, WAY overdone, taking the worse part of the vocal and hit us over the head with it five thousand time over. It tried to be trendy and new agey while contrasting against a more classically told tale.
posted 05-25-2004 01:23 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
Standard Userer
I don't know why Horner used the wailing female vocal for Troy, but Yared used it as a kind of 'voice of destiny' during the Achilles-Hector battle.
posted 05-25-2004 03:33 PM PT (US) TimT
Standard Userer
The wailing never bothered me, but I'm tired of hearing the Duduk instrument. Its way over used in epic movies.
posted 05-25-2004 05:52 PM PT (US) Dinko
Standard Userer
quote:
From technicianonline.com
As if the bad acting and inane dialogue weren’t enough, the soundtrack was cliché and disappointing. Composed by James Horner, the soundtrack includes a woman chanting throughout the entire movie. Chanting in historic epic films has become somewhat of a trend lately -- but in "Troy," it sounds like the whining of an 8-year-old not getting their way.
http://technicianonline.com/story.php?id=009608
posted 05-26-2004 06:31 AM PT (US) Quill
Standard Userer
Let me get this straight...Horner uses the female vocal in the Achilles-Hector battle and it doesn't fit...Yared uses it for the same scene and there is a complex "voice of destiny" behind it.Ummm...oookay.
I actually have no problem with the female vocals of late, but I am sure it will pass rather quickly.
(Side note...if you have read the Iliad you would know that Achilles is not a villian but rather the embodiment of the extremes in human emotion and passion. There are no clear-cut villians in the story, rather characters play foils to one and other. I think Troy captured the complexity of Achilles and Hector...where it truly deviated from character was Agamemnon, who was not as black & white in the book as in the film. In the end that was probably necessary for cinematic reasons. The point...I don't feel Horner's Achilles theme is that out of place.)
posted 05-26-2004 07:30 AM PT (US) Al
Standard Userer
Quill,I have no problems with the story of The Iliad, just this film adaptation. The film couldn't decide if it wanted to be black & white or an exploration of human nature, and as such the characters seem like cardboard cut-outs given sudden deep emotions at certain times. And if there is supposed to be no clear-cut villians, then why does Achilles receive such a swashbuckling upbeat theme and Hector receive next to nothing in comparison? How does this satisfactorily represent a story where characters play foils to one another?
posted 05-26-2004 03:32 PM PT (US) jonathan_little
Standard Userer
Haven't seen or heard Gladiator.
Haven't seen or heard most of The Passion of the Christ. (Saw Debney on Leno.)
Haven't seen or heard Troy.I am very happy listening to On Dangerous Ground right now. No wailing to speak of, except Benny on the last track.
[Oh wait, I lied, I think I have heard some of Gladiator on the Battle of Britain album...]
[Message edited by jonathan_little on 05-26-2004]
posted 05-26-2004 03:56 PM PT (US) franz_conrad
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by Quill:
Let me get this straight...Horner uses the female vocal in the Achilles-Hector battle and it doesn't fit...Yared uses it for the same scene and there is a complex "voice of destiny" behind it.Ummm...oookay.
Well, just remember what I said - Yared had a reason in his mind for using the vocal, and commented on it, therefore I know what the purpose of it was because it's as though the composer told me. Horner to my knowledge has not commented on his score at all, so I don't know what his reasoning was for using the vocal. (Though I suspect like the Bulgarian choir and some of the percussion ideas he was using some of Yared's ideas as a touchstone much as Elfman did on Hulk with respect to Mychael Danna.)
quote:
(Side note...if you have read the Iliad you would know that Achilles is not a villian but rather the embodiment of the extremes in human emotion and passion. There are no clear-cut villians in the story, rather characters play foils to one and other. I think Troy captured the complexity of Achilles and Hector...where it truly deviated from character was Agamemnon, who was not as black & white in the book as in the film. In the end that was probably necessary for cinematic reasons. The point...I don't feel Horner's Achilles theme is that out of place.)Fair enough about Achilles' theme. There is a wider literature being drawn on here than the Iliad though - and in a number of texts, including both Chaucer's and Shakespeare's excellent 'Troylus and Cressida' (Shakespeare's being cleverer than the Iliad even), Achilles is an anti-heroic egomaniac who has his Myrmidons execute the honorable Hector while noone is watching.
posted 05-26-2004 04:26 PM PT (US) Quill
Standard Userer
Franz...I guess I don't understand your point. Because Yared explains why he used the vocals...why does that make the music fit the scene. The music should fit the scene regardless of any peripheral explanation.I agree that Troy the film does not capture all of the complex personas and emotions drummed up in the Iliad...how could it in 145 minutes? I agree that Hector should have been given a theme...he is by far the most memorable and admirable character (along with Odysseus) in the entire story. The Iliad as a story cannot be made into a film...it would present an even greater challenge that LOTR, as it is so mythic...gods and ridiculously over-powered mortals. That being said, the character of Paris was captured perfectly, and as in the story he is the slayer of Achilles. Helen is actually less of sympathetic character in the book, and Hector was a tad too virtuous in the film. The basic elements (again, outside of Agamemnon) are there. Hector is an impassioned warrior, but his dedication is to Troy and family, his responsibility is directed toward the men under his command. In the book he is overcome by delusions of grandeur which ultimately leads to his demise...but omitting that to me is acceptable. For the most part, Achilles is portrayed accurately, from his reasons for withdrawing from the battle to joining back up, from his uber-maniacal ego, to his maturation and appreciate of others and self-sacrifice. I feel the important elements of the story are there and for that reason I can appreciate the film, even with its obvious flaws.
Oh, and Achilles does kill Hector outside the walls of Troy in full view of his people and family as depicted in the film. The defiling of Hector's body is more pronounced in the book, but represented well enough in the film. I know that you are referencing other works where this is not the case, but I believe the credits do say "Inspired by Homer's The Iliad" and not any works by Chaucer or anyone else.
posted 05-26-2004 05:43 PM PT (US) Dinko
Standard Userer
quote:
Originally posted by jonathan_little:
[Oh wait, I lied, I think I have heard some of Gladiator on the Battle of Britain album...]posted 05-27-2004 07:46 AM PT (US) Al
Standard Userer
The fact that Hector "was a tad too virtuous in the film" and Achilles is given so many antagonistic qualities is a large reason why the latter comes across as a sympathetic villain. One cannot pit two characters against each other, having one portrayed as an honorable man with a family at home, while the other one slaughters him and drags him around on a chariot, and still have the audience see the film as a complex movie with no clear-cut villains. That may have been the intention, but the execution failed in that regard. At the point where Achilles weeps over Hector's body afterward, he only comes across as a villain with a soft spot. However, James Horner's score certainly didn't think so. In fact, musically, Achilles didn't represent the extremes of human emotion as much as he just did a swashbuckling hero.To me, Peter O' Toole was the only character whose antagonist side was shown as evenly as the protagonist. Perhaps it's his acting, the writing, or the editing (most likely a combination thereof), but he comes across as a valued, moral man whose foolish, stubborn pride brings about the downfall of Troy. At least the film got that right.
posted 05-27-2004 08:16 AM PT (US) Quill
Standard Userer
It could just be a matter of interpretation.Having just reread the story, I would have to say that film does capture the true essence of the two primary characters.
I suppose, Horner could have utilized different tempos and orchestrations to have the theme undergo a transformaton along with Achilles. Have it make an aggressive, menacing turn to something more compassionate and heroic. I still enjoy the score and do not feel that it is too out of place...but I agree that a different take on it earlier in the story would have been better.
posted 05-27-2004 01:38 PM PT (US) Al
Standard Userer
Hey, no complaints on the score as a stand-alone listen (aside from the synthesized choir), but the context in which it's used in the film is surprisingly off-the-mark for Horner.
posted 05-28-2004 10:09 AM PT (US) Foobsie
Standard Userer
Let me just make one damn thing clear!!!This topic does not apply to A.I.
FoobsZ
posted 05-29-2004 08:45 AM PT (US) Ron Pulliam
Standard Userer
Do you have to have a ulula to ululate?
posted 06-01-2004 03:58 PM PT (US) Ron Pulliam
Standard Userer
Ah, come on!Isn't anyone going to tackle the question of the "ulula"????
posted 06-04-2004 10:50 AM PT (US) justin boggan
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I'd say something, but then people would bitch and it would get deleted.
posted 06-04-2004 10:56 AM PT (US) Ron Pulliam
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Which people would those be, Justin?The ones who have been ignoring this thread in droves?
posted 06-08-2004 01:30 PM PT (US) justin boggan
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The nits who took my statement way too literally.Seriously, I personal love female vocals in scores.
Here is a list of some of my personal favorites:
Hercules: The Legedary Journeys - Volume 3 - "Faith's Song" - beautiful piece! "Zombie Fight" "Faith"
The Pretender - Velton Ray Bunch - cue: "Jarod's Mom"
Buffy The Vampire Slayer season 2 & 3 score promos - so many cues. "ohhh saaay heee..."
Apollo 13 - James Horner - "end Credits" - first half. For some reason I don't recall any of the score in the movie being like that.
Troy rejected - You know who.
The X-Files - "Jose Chung's From Outerspace"
Any many, many more.
posted 06-08-2004 03:37 PM PT (US) mina
Non-Standard Userer
hey listen! this was really the Bulgarian choir and i liked it! maybe the reason is that i am bulgarian and i found our musical culture amazing!!!!!!!!!!
i liked the film because of brad and because i spend my whole schoolyear writing essays about the original literature book!
but i think the film could really have been a little bigger than this, don't you think? i mean it is suppose to be about the greatest vistory in the world history!
posted 06-09-2004 12:25 PM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB