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Author	Topic: The Return of the King - Comments about the film

Quill Standard Userer	Swashbuckler--I absolutely agree about "The Black Gate Opens" piece. It works great in the film...and now I love it in the score release. I just wish there was more use of the "Into the West" theme...but overuse might have lessened its impact when Sam picks Frodo up. Perfect! Oh...and the Denethor subplot did not bother we as much during the second viewing. I do wish they had kept the sequence in The Two Towers...it would have been more cohesive for the average audience member.
posted 12-23-2003 04:43 PM PT (US)

joan hue Standard Userer	I enjoyed the movie very much. I shall miss not seeing a fourth, but the books have ended. I really enjoyed the humor and camaraderie between the elf, dwarf and ranger in Two Towers, and I do wish there had been more of that in Return of the King. Perhaps a few minutes of less fighting and more focus on the trio would have pleased me more. And the ending did drag on a little too long, but still it was a grand ride. And I hope Sam (Sean Astin) is honored with an Oscar nomination. (And Peter Jackson and Howard Shore.) Okay, Ring experts, I have a few questions for you. In Two Towers the elves came to help. So where were the dwarves? I don’t think they were all killed in the cave. Why only one dwarf in all three movies? Where were his people? And one more question. In the last movie Gandalf was talking to Pippin about dying, that all die and see green fields. Also,the elves were leaving on ships, “into the west to the undying lands.” I never thought of their journey as a journey to death. At the end the hobbits and Gandalf put Bilbo on the last elf ship. I assumed it was to send him to the west with the elves. Then Gandalf says he and Frodo must go. (Frodo said earlier his wound still bothered him.) Gandalf and Frodo’s exit is treated as very sad, like they are dying and leaving forever. Okay, I’m confused. I never thought of the elf ship as a ship of death taking its passengers to a type of heaven. Anyone interpret this for me???? NP Two Towers
posted 12-23-2003 05:34 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Actually, you've got it, Joan. The elf ship is a ship of death taking its passengers to a type of heaven. (I think they've said as much in the commentary that Rivendell is in a kind of perpetual autumn in the film, and even the last Elrond scene is with dying trees around him as he sits there.) In one form or another, the quest did claim Frodo's life, as he says something to that effect after he returns home--that he cannot return to the life he once led before the ring. Immortality is the reward for all great heroes, whether literally or figuratively.
posted 12-23-2003 07:46 PM PT (US)

Camillu Standard Userer	Agree with most of what was said, especially the impact of the cue "The Black Gate Opens" in the film. Great stuff. More stuff we've seen which will probably pop up in the extended DVD - Elrond's great line "This is your test. Every path you have walked through wilderness, through war, has led to this road." Also - the shot of Eomer holding someone in his arms of the battlefield of Pelennor and crying his heart out.
posted 12-24-2003 05:20 AM PT (US)

Magpie Non-Standard Userer	I suppose you could call the Undying Shores heaven - and many compare them this way because they are beautiful and 'undying'- but it doesn't work to equate Valinor with life 'after death'. Valinor was a beautiful land that some of the Elves lived in a long, long time before the time of LOTR. Returning to Valinor meant different things to different Elves - some were leaving Middle-earth because they felt their time there was over and others were returning from exile. Frodo and Sam were going with them as a special honor. Men (& Hobbits) were not allowed entrance to this place, but there is hope in the reader that they can be healed of the Ring's damage in Valinor. The sadness was entirely one of parting... and perhaps because Frodo was so damaged he could not be healed in mortal lands. His friends are not afraid for him in Valinor. He will die a natural death, but he is not dying by going there. Gandalf's speech was a nice set-up for where Frodo might be going and a glimpse into the spiritual underpinnings of Middle-earth, but it was not accurate. Only Elves went back to the undying lands after death, to the halls of Mandos where they wait. (But Elves could go back to Valinor without dying, also) Elves can die (in sorrow or in battle) but they do not leave the world. (don't ask me about that one...) It was never known what happened to Men or Hobbits after death. They, alone, were given 'the gift of death' and it's never stated what happens when they leave the world but I think it was described as 'escaping the bonds'. Dwarves: If you're asking what the movie meant for them to be doing during the battles, I couldn't say. The Elves were not at Helm's Deep. Elves, Dwarves and the Men of Dale (from the Hobbit) were fighting their own battles. If you're interested and have access to the ROTK, just go to Appendix B and read the info that appears in the timeline after the Ring is destroyed. It's only a few paragraphs long. The Elf king, Thranduil, you read about, is Legolas' father -- Dain and Thorin are Dwarves -- and Brand is a Man. [Message edited by Magpie on 12-24-2003] [Message edited by Magpie on 12-24-2003]
posted 12-24-2003 07:27 AM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	Yeah, don't forget about Dain II Iron Foot...who stood on a pile of dead foes fighting alone with his axe until dusk.
posted 12-24-2003 03:37 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	I'm sure Pippin would have processed all of Tolkien's stipulations on passage to the Undying Lands in due time, but...would have made for a crappy scene for someone who just said that he's afraid to die. Essentially, whether Elves, Men, Hobbits--in a story that reflects heavily on mortality, it's still a nice way of looking at death as something other than a dark ending.
posted 12-24-2003 09:48 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	And also, Gandalf DID die a human death. I still find it a bit annoying to talk about something rooted very deep in the mythology when Tolkien explained so much and decided to leave this particular bit unexplained.
posted 12-25-2003 06:34 AM PT (US)

joan hue Standard Userer	Thanks, guys, for answering my questions. I think the movies can't deal with ALL that is explained in the books. Gracias. NP Exodus
posted 12-27-2003 01:04 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	Not even the book can. You'll have to read the Silmarillion to figure it all out.
posted 12-27-2003 05:14 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: And also, Gandalf DID die a human death. I still find it a bit annoying to talk about something rooted very deep in the mythology when Tolkien explained so much and decided to leave this particular bit unexplained. He can die on the physical level, but survives on the spiritual level, as do all the Children of Illuvatar - Ainur (including Gandalf), Eldar and Younger. Of the fate of the Dwarves, little is spoken in the Grey Annals. I think Gandalf speaks so clearly about the Undying Lands in ROTK because he is a servant of Lorien, the Valar of Dreams, and has dwelt there.
posted 12-27-2003 06:19 PM PT (US)

Lancelot Standard Userer	Does it really matter? Pippin is afraid to die. Gandalf assures him that there's no fear in death itself.
posted 12-27-2003 08:27 PM PT (US)

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