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      Soundtrack alterations

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    Topic:   Soundtrack alterations

     MMM
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    I'm doing some research on musical changes that have been made to films after their initial releases. I'm not talking about a score being rejected after a private screening, but rather where copyright and other other issues many years later caused songs and possibly underscore to be changed due to legal complications.

    Do any of you have some film titles in this category you can share, as well as any understanding you might have as to why music had to be changed in these instances? I recall at various times people talking about music subsequently being changed from how they heard it in their youth, but I can't recall any specific titles that were mentioned.

    Also, is anyone knowledgeable in cases where a film was released simultaneously with two different scores -- one in the U. S., and another overseas -- and why this was done? I know some Italian sword-and-sandal films and other foreign films were released in America with different scores than they had in their original foreign releases.

    Thanks in advance for any help you're able to provide.

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    posted 08-29-2003 03:19 PM PT (US)     

     HadrianD
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    K2 - the movie about mountain climbing, had two score. For the the American release, it was scored by Chaz Jankel, with the European version scored by Hans Zimmer. Behind the scene, Hans' score was also for the American market, but test screening didn't bode well for the movie, so the first thing they did was dumped Hans's score and replaced it with Chaz's sparse and themeless score. The European version of the movie is supposedly longer too. Not sure about that. Hans's K2 was released through Varese and is one of his best.

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    posted 08-29-2003 04:28 PM PT (US)     

     James
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    Probably the most famous case of a film having two different simultaneous scores is Legend, which had one of Jerry Goldsmith's all-time best scores in Europe, but was replaced with a new score by Tangerine Dream for the U.S.

    Most of the time when music is changed years later it's because of copyright issues. This happens more often with songs that have been licensed for use in a show or a film. For instance, I've heard that the DVDs for the TV show "Felicity" that are out now contain very few of the songs that were used in the broadcast version, because the rules are different for home video releases.

    There are times when this happens with scores, though. If you look around John Ottman's web site you'll find that he did a replacement score for McLintock for a small home video company that had somehow secured the rights to release the film, but for whatever reason had not been able to secure rights to the music.

    Kirk
    NP - John Adams' Violin Concerto

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    posted 08-29-2003 04:36 PM PT (US)     

     Ed
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    Luc Besson's THE BIG BLUE had a score by Eric Serra which was replaced by Bill Conti in the US. Serra's score has been issued several times; Conti's has not yet been released.

    I believe the US distributor shortened the film, which made the re-score necessary.


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    posted 08-29-2003 04:51 PM PT (US)     

     MMM
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    Thanks for the information. After "poking around" John Ottman's incredibly confusing web site for a half-hour and not finding the piece you referred to, I will unfortunately have to spend my time in more productive pursuits. His web site designer should be tarred and feathered. What an unpleasant mess!

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    posted 08-29-2003 04:55 PM PT (US)     

     James
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    Hmm, I think John Ottman's web site is great. Never had a problem navigating it. In any case, here's a direct link to that page:

    http://www.johnottman.com/projects/features/mclintock/index.html

    Kirk

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    posted 08-29-2003 10:54 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    Don Davis has said that on the Matrix movies, they didn't know if they'd get the rights for the songs they wanted to use when he was writing the score, so he wrote original music for all those scenes just in case they'd end up without the songs. Of course, they did get the song rights in the end, so I suppose there's quite a bit of Davis music for the first film that hasn't been heard yet.

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    posted 08-30-2003 06:21 AM PT (US)     

     James
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    Ah yes, The Matrix. One of those cues from the first one made it onto the CD (and the very end of the end credits in the film). The last minute-and-a-half or so of "Anything is Possible" was originally supposed to go where the Rage Against The Machine song went at the end of the film. I actually put Davis' score back onto the scene for a project at school, and I was extremely surprised (and happy) when the rest of the class agreed that it worked much better for the scene than the song did.

    Also, you can go to Don Davis's web site and listen to some alternate cues from The Matrix Reloaded. There's "Multiple Replication," which was written for the Burly Brawl sequence before Juno Reactor got a hold of it, and "Chateau Swashbuckling," which was the alternate for the Rob Dougan track "Chateau."

    Here's the link:
    http://dondavis.filmmusic.com/audio.html

    Kirk

    [Message edited by James on 08-30-2003]

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    posted 08-30-2003 11:31 AM PT (US)     

     MMM
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    I wanted to thank everyone who is providing such interesting information. Sorry if I couldn't figure out the Ottman website. Although I enjoy clever websites, and this certainly is one, there are times when I'm really busy and can't spend too much effort trying to translate things. The worst such sites are those for advertising agencies. They are so clever you have no idea what any of it means. Like instead of saying "contact us," they'll have some icon named "We're here!" or "Interaction." Kind of like those clothing departments called "Free 'N' Easy" when you're looking for something called "Pants." Anyway, the information about MCLINTOCK was really fascinating, so thanks for the direct link to that page.

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    posted 08-31-2003 02:25 PM PT (US)     

     jonathan_little
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    I noticed on The Ghost and Mrs. Muir DVD that the antique Spanish track has much of Bernard Herrmann's score removed and replaced with lame generic (stock?) music.

    Why was this done? I have no clue. It's probably because somebody was a huge idiot.

    P.S. I also dislike the design of Ottman's website. It certainly makes you go crazy trying to navigate the damned thing. "Click on the tight sphincter to enter."

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    posted 09-01-2003 03:52 PM PT (US)     

     John C Winfrey
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    Well, I recall one movie specifically with cues moved around in it after its first release. When Psycho II came out I saw it. I remembered all the cues and had the LP. When I saw it a couple of years later on its first showing on TV. The cues in the film had been moved around for some reason. For example, "Bloodbath" cue was replaced with one of the others in the score. And the cue "Its not your Mother"was used in another spot too again. Then I saw parts of this the other night again. All the cues back in their right places again. Interesting, huh? I really like that "Its Not Your Mother" cue.
    Best, J.

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    posted 09-02-2003 11:24 AM PT (US)     

     Graham Watt
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    MMM, I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for, but a few things spring to mind -

    I seem to recall that one of the original STAR TREK episodes, perhaps "The City On The Edge Of Forever", incorporated a song called "Goodnight Sweetheart" which had to be changed in more recent re-runs when the rights expired.

    Several Italian-produced horror movies from the sixties, such as BLACK SABBATH, had Roberto Nicolosi's original scores replaced on their American release by newly-composed works by Les Baxter.

    Sticking with Les Baxter for a moment, British composer Wilfred Josephs had this to say (in John Williams' - no, not that one - "TV Composer Guide": "There were 38 murders and a massacre in CRY OF THE BANSHEE, which starred Vincent Price. I wrote a complete score and was paid for it, but when I finally saw it here I found it had a jazz score (sic) by Les Baxter. Apparently Hollywood had decided it wanted a jazz score and brought in another composer." I've seen that film in Britain, and it did indeed have a score by Baxter, but when I caught it recently on Spanish TV they used the Josephs score.

    Another twist to things which I don't understand at all is when dubbed (into Spanish) TV showings of movies here have the original scores replaced by other ones - I've seen Edward G. Robinson in THE RED HOUSE with some of Miklos Rozsa's score replaced by portions of QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (or rather WITCHCRAFT, by Carlo Martelli). And Boris Karloff as THE MUMMY had Franz Reizenstein's score for the Hammer remake tracked in when I saw it last.

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    posted 09-06-2003 03:38 PM PT (US)     

     Graham Watt
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    Browsing over at the FSM site, I think I may have found the answer to that thing which I previously deemed unfathomable - and it makes a lot of sense, so why didn't I think of it? All those old movies I've seen on TV here dubbed into Spanish (Boris Karloff with Franz Reizenstein music; Edward "Bulldog" Robinson with Carlo Martelli music, etc) probably originally had the dialogue and the music ON DE SAME TRACK! So, replace the dialogue and you have to replace da muzak, Dumbo! Still doesn't explain why some of those old movies have parts of the original scores intact.

    Another thing over at FSM on the same topic reminded me that many of AIP's films from the 60s (WITCHFINDER GENERAL, SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN, CURSE OF THE CRIMSON ALTAR etc) had synth scores tracked in by "Kendall Schmidt" when released through Orion.

    WITCHFINDER GENERAL must have lost a lot on having the excellent Paul Ferris score replaced - I really like that pastoral theme of his, though some of his blaring horror cues may have been a trifle unsubtle. SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN had a somewhat inappropriate jazz score by the great David Whitaker originally - it would be interesting to see the film with a more ambient approach, though I can't imagine it would be ideal either. CURSE OF THE CRIMSON ALTAR had a very memorable main theme by Peter Knight, with spine-tinglingly notey organ work, so I wouldn't like to hear that ditched, but it is an experience to see how a film is changed when the original score is replaced. I still have (bad) memories of seeing FRANKENSTEIN CREATED WOMAN dubbed into Spanish, with much of James Bernard's splendid music replaced by haunted house doodlings.

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    posted 09-12-2003 04:09 PM PT (US)     
     

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