I ask because this has been a topic of discussion among a small group who discuss film music via e-mail only (no cloaked interlopers allowed).

The argument was put forward without actually criticizing Shore's work, but by citing the fact that "some people" had been disappointed by the score not being filled with memorable thematic material.

I certainly remember the themes, although they're not the huge, pulsating, cymbal-crashing themes we would have gotten from Tiomkin or Herrmann or Rozsa or Newman or Korngold or Steiner, et. al. Some folks seem to wish one of those composers had been around to take up the gauntlet and provide LOTR with "their" type of score -- the super-epic sort we got in the 1950s.

Frankly, it's not easy trying to think kindly on some of the films with those scores. The themes are memorable, but to what end really? Which ones actually made the films "better"? Every composer out there has a film or two or three in which the music seems a perfect match to the film. But there are far more that don't match, and then the music sort of makes its own statement without regard to the lack of visual association.

LOTR:FOTR is a masterpiece of cinematic storytelling -- extremely literate, beautifully realized, perfectly cast. It is the IDEAL combination of state-of-the-art CGI, live-action performance and man-made sets/costumes/props. It is the most seamless never-calls-attention-to-any-one-element presentation of those elements I've seen.

Shore's music establishes mood, adds nuance and helps limn the chiaroscuro of good and evil without resorting to "hey-listen-to-me-I'm-the-underscore", yet it is gracefully crafted and beautifully spotted throughout the film. His music for the Shire is as wonderfully droll as the music for Rivendell and Lothlorien is magically haunting. I cannot imagine ANY other composer, living or dead, whose fingerprints ought to be on this film.

That said, if there were one other composer I would have preferred seeing get the job, then who would it be?

Simple.

David Shire.

And his last name is perfection for the project.

But the score I point to that says "Shire did this and he could do" LOTR is "Return to Oz."

What about any of you?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ron Pulliam:
...do you think would have done as good or a better job on scoring "The Lord of the Rings"?

---

What Howard Shore has achieved in this trilogy is astonishing. But of course there are plenty of other composers who would have been interesting on this project. Don Davis, Elliot Goldenthal, and let's not forget Jerry Goldsmith (let's remember his scores for Lionheart and Legend shall we), all of them would probably have contributed some truly original stuff.

Taken as a stand-alone piece on CD, I'm highly disappointed. Most of the time what I hear is a theme played by one instrument or group of instruments together, accompanied by a fairly common type of background droning where much of the background music has a whole section of the orchestra droning on in unison.

Sure, Shore varies the lead instruments accross the various pieces, but within each piece, particularly the slower tracks, there's a lot of unison droning, the type found in other Shore scores.
Now I just like my 'epic' scores to be somewhat deeper than that. Even Williams on autopilot (as on Harry Potter) I think delivers a less monotone experience. With a Williams score, there's always something going on in each part of the orchestra, and the various parts are often subdivided further amongst them.

In addition to that, I disagree that there are no catchy themes in LOTR. I think there are many of them. My personal problem is that themes tend to be experienced on a very personal level. Most of Shore's themes just leave me staring blankly. I know them, I recognize them, I can hum/whistle them... but ultimately, I couldn't care less if I tried. The themes just don't "speak" to me.

Taking that into account, I think that I would have preferred a number of other composers to handle the music. They would not have done a better job when it comes to conveying all that the book & movie convey, but I would have been happier with their scores on CD.
George Fenton, William Ross, Jerry Goldsmith, Don Davis, and Christopher Stone are among the names that come to mind.

Having said that, my thoughts on Shore's magnificent effort have frequently appeared on this board. If he came to town, I would without a doubt - life, love and thesis not withstanding - go and watch the performance, and Dinko knows that not even Tan Dun gets that kind of attention from me. Just watching the preview for TTT:EE on the TTT DVD last night, I saw him and the London Philharmonic performing a strident piece of music that I would guess accompanies the scene in TTT:EE where Boromir retakes Osgiliath. It sounds like a close cousin of the Rohan theme, although heavier on the brass than the strings - definitely a close cousin of the principal action themes for the trilogy so far.

To those who haven't seen the TTT DVD yet, it's a lovely transfer. There are times when Gollum and the Ents don't look as good as they did on the big screen, but the FOTR DVD was a bit like that too. As for music, the highlights of the film that never made into onto the album sound as good as ever: Shadowfax's arrival, the extended destruction of Isengard, the appearance of the Nazgul at Osgiliath (with that hauntingly chill female soprano). As for the music that plays during the ROTK preview - there is emphasis on the Rohirrim material in the section on the Dawn Charge at Pelennor, the sadder material from Samwise the Brave underscores the final section on Frodo and Sam, Minas Tirith/Denethor sections feature the unreleased music that accompanied Aragorn and Boromir's memorable scene in Lothlorien from FOTR. There's no question, after seeing the final shot of that preview (it's damn good I tell you), I'm excited.

Regarding the music on CD, normally I'd agree with Dinko, I always consider counterpoint etc. very important. But I honestly can't say I miss stuff like this very much in Shore's scores. They're more based on sound layers it seems, though of course for LOTR he adds lots of themes. And I still say there's a bit more complex stuff going on than can be heard on the CD, the acoustics seem to swalllow some of the details because of the huge orchestra and chorus.

Anyway, as I said before, I can't think of ANY composer who'd do the kind of research that Shore did, and therefore I can't imagine anyone writing a score as completely appropriate as Shore.

Ron, your idea of Shire, given his Return to Oz score, is a good one. But we’ll never
know. I always thought Poldouris could also have composed for these movies.

(Oh, oh, I'll need Kleenex, Marian, for the third one?)

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan hue:
(Oh, oh, I'll need Kleenex, Marian, for the third one?)

---

Thankfully--my fears were quashed. His wealth of themes, and more so dedication to the source material have helped place these scores near the top of my list of all time favorites. His music has become an integral part of the storytelling and that should be the ultimate goal of all film scores.

I do agree somewhat that on disc the power is lost somewhat. The Fellowship release always irked me in that we are bombarded with the Black Riders theme over and over again, and the Ring theme gets only a single track (an excellent track of course!)

Now--my following comment is not intended to incite a riotous debate, but...I always thought John Williams would be perfect for this project. That being said, I often feel that his work is often times to self-serving. Yes--his scores always sound fantastic outside of the film (and for the most part in the film as well), however, it feels from time to time that his music is saying, "Yep...that's right...this is a John Williams score and I just thought I would remind you." Shore's dedication to the story and source material is what made him the perfect choice in the end.

So to answer the question as a Monday-morning quarterback....no, Shore was the best choice.

*Wakes up from the most wonderful dream*

Marian - I thought that grand stirring theme might be a reworking of the Gondor material from FOTR, but from the briefest snippet in the preview I couldn't be sure. It does sound like a great theme indeed. I hope that the motif that appears at the beginning of the film version of Forth Eorlingas finds its way onto the Pelennor battlefield as well.

I think the score is appropriate for the movie, but it is a slog on CD. I think the orchestration is to blame: too much all the time. I appreciate the organic wholeness of the score, but there could be a lot more transparency.

The spotting is not 100% brilliant. I would have left more unscored, certainly. The elf themes are perfectly OK, but I would love to hear what Goldsmith would have done with the Elves' music. Sigh. Something else that never happened.

But Howard Shore has done a great job. There are no glaring gaffes and there are lots and lots of very, very fine moments. The score - on its lonesome - just does not grab me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by franz_conrad:
I hope that the motif that appears at the beginning of the film version of Forth Eorlingas finds its way onto the Pelennor battlefield as well.

---

The suspected nature and/or hope theme? I think that must be the one you're talking about, it also appears when the Ents march to Isengard.

If it is indeed a nature/hope theme, it might just show up at that point in ROTK. If I remember correctly, that's when the clouds go away to let the sun come through (thanks to Galadriel, as Sam believes), so it would be the perfect place for it.

quote:

---

Do I have to turn in my hobbit foot slippers and Spock ears now?[/B]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
The suspected nature and/or hope theme? I think that must be the one you're talking about, it also appears when the Ents march to Isengard. That Isengard rendition of it is one of my favourite bits from the scores so far.

---

From my own Shore collection I see such varied scores as Silence of the Lambs, Se7en, The Cell, Mrs Doubtfire, Before and After, The Game, Crash, Big, Prelude to a Kiss, Looking for Richard, the rejected Ransom score.

These aren't lightweight scores...these are professional, no holds barred scores...just what LOTR needs. Shore does not compromise in anything he does musically, and that's one of the things I admire about and find so damn interesting in his music.

quote:

---

My very favorite bit of music in Two Towers is the very opening, "Foundations of Stone."

---

I bet if someone like James Newton Howard would have scored the Lord of the Rings he would have risen above the occasion and it would have been something really special. His complex music always moves me. He rarely repeats himself. And he's one of the few composers that can write music with profound emotion, memorable themes AND that will match the movie perfectly. Poledouris would have been interesting too. Williams wouldn't have been fair because he gets all the best projects He should score more unconventional movies, more intimate movies. We have heard enough of his epic side.

I shore am glad Howard got the gig

quote:

---

Originally posted by metaphor123:
Both John Williams and Basil Poledouris are the epitome of the operatic, orchestral bombast typical of fantasy scores.

---

Like others, I was a bit annoyed about Shore getting the job first. My first choice had always been Williams, and Poledouris was near the top of my list as well.

If I were a director, I'd want this kind of score for every film I directed, but especially for a fantasy-epic.

Damn it all....

I bet if someone like James Newton Howard would have scored the Lord of the Rings he would have risen above the occasion and it would have been something really special.

Hmmm. What do you base this on? Not that I don't think he would have done something special, but I've been rather disappointed with recent scores of his when I thought "special" was what they would/should be.

His complex music always moves me. He rarely repeats himself. And he's one of the few composers that can write music with profound emotion, memorable themes AND that will match the movie perfectly.

Reads to me like you've found your favorite composer. How does Maestro Silvestri feel about that?

Williams wouldn't have been fair because he gets all the best projects.

Now see, I have a different perspective. If the world were fair, he'd be scoring a whole lot more than what he does! And I don't think he gets all the best projects; it's just that he's so good, he elevates whatever films he scores to a higher level than they might have been without him.

I think I pegged this much about your concern -- Williams is the composer of choice of George Lucas and Steven Spielberg, whose work seems to encompass genres you're particularly interested in.

But try to think about it this way -- if this were the early 1960s, you'd be complaining that Bernard Herrmann gets all the "best projects" based on his Harryhausen work.

He should score more unconventional movies, more intimate movies. We have heard enough of his epic side.

Oops. A slightly wrong choice of pronoun, ESB. Perhpas "you" have heard enough, but "I" haven't had NEARLY enough.

Film scoring isn't a playground activity. True enough, it's like a popularity contest in that the more popular the composer, the more likely it is he will get a job. Still, there aren't that many directors secure enough to work with John Williams. Witness all the thrown-out scores many composers have endured -- and those forced to leave temp track in place while scoring around it -- and some of the abominable choices directors have foisted upon their music directors.

No...I think we need a huge dose of John Williams every now and then!

Jz

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ron Pulliam:
ESB wrote:

[b]I bet if someone like James Newton Howard would have scored the Lord of the Rings he would have risen above the occasion and it would have been something really special.

Hmmm. What do you base this on? Not that I don't think he would have done something special, but I've been rather disappointed with recent scores of his when I thought "special" was what they would/should be.

---

I think every composer would rise above the occasion with such a visual spectacle. And if JNH rises above the occasion... drool.

quote:

---

His complex music always moves me. He rarely repeats himself. And he's one of the few composers that can write music with profound emotion, memorable themes AND that will match the movie perfectly.

Reads to me like you've found your favorite composer. How does Maestro Silvestri feel about that?

---

He knows that I have a huge admiration for JNH. I told him that he is one of my three favorite composers together with JNH and Goldsmith. In fact he's also an admirer of JNH (I don't think he admires a lot of composers) He said that James writes very well. He also greatly admires Goldsmith of course (maybe his favorite).

Kind of 'risky' was my announcement that I'm also building a site about JNH. But he was very positive about it because he also admires JNH. Pheew

I admire different things about them. Alan is extremely strong in writing themes (e.g. the BTTF theme, who can write something like this!) He's also the most dynamic composer I know (e.g. TMR) Writing slapstick-like music is second nature to him, he does it so easily. I think he's rhythmically stronger than Goldsmith and JNH. His work is also more rough than JNH and Goldsmith who are more 'decent' composers. Super cool guy.

JNH is melodically somewhat less than Silvestri and Goldsmith, but his music is so intelligent. Devil's Advocate is the work of a sheer genius. Within one score his music is always very varied. Almost every track is different. Especially his atmospheric music evokes profound emotions with me. There are other highly intelligent composers out there like Goldenthal but his music is too artistic or abstract. JNH has a perfect balance of complexity and accessibility.

I watched both LOTR’s movies this weekend. (Yes, I saw them in the theaters.) I’m
hearing (and finally absorbing) the warnings and portents. Yep, I do think I’ll need
Kleenex for the third movie. After watching the first movie, I bought The Two Towers
novel because I couldn’t wait to find out what would happen. Interesting read, and I
know many of you love the books, but I’ve decided to see the movie before reading the
final novel. I knew from the novel that Shore would probably compose Ent, Rohan, and
extended Golum music, and I wasn’t disappointed. I’m really curious as to whom or
what will pop up in the final chapter and how Shore will integrate new themes into his
established almost operatic palette.

I’d like to ask some questions about Tolkien and the novels. I’d love to know what you
think his themes or messages were in this trilogy. I do believe that one of his main
considerations for the novels was to entertain, to create a fantasy world so detailed we
would buy into the reality of its existence. Still, I can’t help but also think he was
commenting about our real world.

“Orcs were once Elves.” Wow, that surprised me. Elves seem so intelligent and good
while Orcs are so stupid and reprehensible, just killing machines. I’ve heard Tolkien was
Catholic, so I wondered if he wasn’t commenting about the duality of humans, that divide
called good and evil, sin and redemption. When the Elves come to help the humans of
Rohan, they talk about, “Old alliances once broken.” Is he commenting on WWI? On the
rifts in Europe? The Ents seem to carry ecological messages in the face of
Industrialization, but they also purport extended neutrality. The hobbits shake up the Ents when they say, “This is your world too.” Again, I kept thinking about our World
Wars. Also, is there a possibility some of the fictional characters are composites of real people?

As I said, I’m sure he wanted to write an adventure story, which he did, but if any of you
are Tolkien Gurus and can enlighten some of us who wallow in ignorance, we’d love to
read your insights.

NP LOTR: The Two Towers. (I love the Rohan theme.)

[Message edited by joan hue on 09-14-2003]

One of Tolkien's themes is definitely his strong dislike of technology - see Saruman and his whole industrialisation thing vs. the Ents (I like Saruman's monologue in the TTT movie). The Shire is meant to be more or less the region where Tolkien grew up, and in the part that won't be in the ROTK movie, he brings the technology theme into play here.

If you've read FOTR (if not, you should ), including Tolkien's preface, you might remember that he said he hates allegories. I see no reason why that should not be true, so I doubt there are any direct relations between his stories and real history or real persons, though no doubt parallels do exist.

As for the duality of good and evil, I don't think any creatures in Tolkien's stories which have a will of their own were evil from the beginning. Sauron was a Maia (like Gandalf and the other wizards) before he was seduced by Morgoth (who was far worse than Sauron). Yet Morgoth himself was among the Ainur that created the world and not evil from the beginning. The Orcs on the other hand were created by Sauron (or was it Morgoth? I'm not sure here) by somehow torturing captured Elves, and do not have a will of their own. Without Sauron's control, they don't function.

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan hue:
“Orcs were once Elves.” Wow, that surprised me. Elves seem so intelligent and good while Orcs are so stupid and reprehensible, just killing machines. I’ve heard Tolkien was Catholic, so I wondered if he wasn’t commenting about the duality of humans, that divide called good and evil, sin and redemption.

---

There is more than a bit in Tolkien's work of the dependence of Evil on Good, and of the use of Evil by Good for an end that may be Better - in this Tolkien was every bit a card-carrying member of the greater intellectually inclined Christian congregation. The source of Evil in the Tolkien universe is very similar to the Christian one - you have a created figure whose purpose was to serve a 'younger creation' for the greater glory of their own creator. In Lucifer's case, this younger creation was Edenic mankind if Milton and Isaiah are to be believed. In Melkor's case, it was the Children of Illuvatar (the Creator) - Elves and Men, whom he desired to dominate.

The comparison extends to the manner in which the 'source of evil' finds his efforts frustrated for the ultimate good. With the salvation event of Christianity, the role of Lucifer (now Satan, the enemy) becomes one of testing the Church - continually plans for evil are turned to long-run good. In Melkor's (now Morgoth, the black enemy) case, his part in the Song of the Ainur (the Ainulindale) wherein the world was fashioned was to by means of creating disruptive counter-themes draw forth themes of ever greater power from the other Ainur. Like Lucifer, ever his egotistical desire for lordship over Ea (the world that is) and the Children of Illuvatar is frustrated by the 'good' that he draws forth in reaction to his 'evil'.

It's probably fair to ask what all this has to do with your question about Orcs and Elves, but I'm coming to that. Evil relies on good for its existence, and it can only come from a corruption of good. So if the Children of Illuvatar are corrupted - what base creatures could result? And so Elves were taken and reduced to base physical forms and speech. (One wonders what Morgoth would have achieved with Men!)

One thing that emerges again and again from the Tolkien world though is the role of choice. There is no shortage of references to cases when men exercised choice for good, and you could write a book based on cases of it in LOTR alone. But Elves can choose their fate within this scheme of powers as well. Some elves are not 'reduced' by the dark powers to orcs and could never be. There is Gwindor in the Tale of Turin, who escapes after years of thraldom in Angband, still with a hint of his former radiance and no loss of his elvish manner. There are references to elf prisoners of Morgoth who were released after the War of Wrath at the end of Silmarilion. There is Maeglin who is pinned on Thangorodrim for a time. And there is Luthien who goes down into the depths of Angband wearing the guise of the vampire Thuringwethil. I think in all these cases, these were elves who were either directly exposed to the light of the west (avoid reading anything political into that phrase, I'm talking about Valinor) or had close contact with elves who had. Having seen the light, they could not fall into the based obscurity of orcdom. The orcs were comprised largely of elves who were taken by the dark powers before the light of Valinor had been revealed to them. Anyway I think I've gotten off the topic, so I'll move on.

Before I leave that point, I will note that there is chapter in the book (not by Tolkien) The Master of Middle Earth where the nature of evil is discussed and the role of the orcs in it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan hue:

When the Elves come to help the humans of
Rohan, they talk about, “Old alliances once broken.” Is he commenting on WWI? On the
rifts in Europe?

---

That actually wasn't in the book as you've probably discovered. I think as a British intellectual Tolkien would almost certainly have had a bleak view of continental alliances, but I can't be certain about that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan hue:

The Ents seem to carry ecological messages in the face of
Industrialization, but they also purport extended neutrality. The hobbits shake up the Ents when they say, “This is your world too.” Again, I kept thinking about our World
Wars.

---

There is some indication of the way Tolkien was struck by the movement of industrialisation in those scenes in TTT where Merry exhorts Pippin not to be content to go home. As Frodo had seen in Galadriel's mirror, the Shire would burn in Saruman's 'fires of industry'. The final stretch of ROTK (not included in the film), dealing with the Scouring of the Shire, is very much the portrait of Tolkien's village absorbed by the growing industrial hinterland of London. It's less about the wars people fought and more about the ways change creeps into life in ways people feel personally.

quote:

---

Also, is there a possibility some of the fictional characters are composites of real people?

---

I wouldn't rule out some of the Shire characters being based on very specific people, but I think for the most part Tolkien's spare characterisations (note, not weak) exempt him from the criticism of having pillaged life for art.

quote:

---

As I said, I’m sure he wanted to write an adventure story, which he did, but if any of you are Tolkien Gurus and can enlighten some of us who wallow in ignorance, we’d love to
read your insights.

---

Hope it helped. Anything else come to mind?

quote:

---

Originally posted by franz_conrad:
(One wonders what Morgoth would have achieved with Men!)

---

Well, Saruman's Uruk-Hai supposedly are a cross of Orcs and Men, as far as I remember?

Joan, I think WWI and WWII were very much on Tolkien's mind -- in fact, he sent chapters of his work to his son while his son was away in the second world war.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
... regarding the Orcs' lack of free will, in Tolkien's writings, Evil could never give free will, in fact only Illuvatar himself could. When Aule created the Dwarf fathers, they were just puppets who did what he wanted them to do, before Illuvatar gave them a will of their own.

---