Chill, dude! You're still the only one acting like a child...calling people names and being all finger-pointy.

Tantrums are ugly sights, even when thrown in words of childish anger. They make all your attempts at being serious and mature collapse before our very eyes.

quote:

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"That ship?" said Ford in sudden excitement. "What happened to it? Do you know?"

"It hated me because I talked to it."

"You talked to it? What do you mean you talked to it?"

"Simple. I got very bored and very depressed, so I went and plugged myself in to its external computer feed. I talked to the computer at great length and explained my view of the Universe to it," said Marvin.

"And what happened?" pressed Ford.

"It committed suicide," said Marvin, and stalked of back to the Heart of Gold."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Pulliam:
Hadrian:

Chill, dude! You're still the only one acting like a child...calling people names and being all finger-pointy.

Tantrums are ugly sights, even when thrown in words of childish anger. They make all your attempts at being serious and mature collapse before our very eyes.

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 07-24-2003]

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Ask yourself why you went into a thread that did not require nor welcome your presence (in fact told you to stay away) and you contribute in non productive manner. Excuse me for pointing out who didn't do what was asked of them. Not just you. I mean, if you had just stayed away, I wouldn't have to write this right now to defend myself. Don't blame me for responding against you and others. Ask yourself if you've actually didn't enter this thread witht the intention of "bashing MV" some more. Look at what I wrote at the beginning of this thread. Was it asking for anything more than a notice of a fact?

You all MV bashers say whatever you want about me, but you guys entered this thread trying to instigate more bashing so I responded in kind. Yet you blame me for being immature. Oh okay, I guess it wouldn't be immature for anyone to go to anyplace where they're not wanted and make trouble when it's The reason why they're not wanted. A little bit hypocritical isn't it?

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I think, for all of us it's important to, at some point, step away from what is actually a really big shadow.

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...and...

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The friendships and relationships and comraderies are really good. But what is difficult is that it's Hans' business. And all of us were there because he wanted us there, but if he didn't, you weren't. There was a business arrangement, not a communal arrangement, because it's a business that belongs to one man and his partner.

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That's how I perceive the place as well. MV feels more like a business designed to produce scores that sound like Hans Zimmer. Technically there's nothing wrong that, but just as easily as MV can propel a composer into the mainstream it can also rob the composer of his or her distinctiveness, and it is the distinctiveness of composers that makes film music truly varied, rewarding and, ultimately, artistic. The Media Ventures crew may be skilled craftsmen (regardless of whether or not you care for their craft) but as long as they are working under the shadow of Zimmer they can't speak up, and they are only workers producing a nice consumer product. There is nothing inherently wrong (or even inherently inferior) with consumer products, but if a composer wants to make something that is truly the result of his or her own sweat and tears, Media Ventures is simply the wrong place to be. And since I would love for all talented composers to find their own voices (for diversity enriches every art form), I dislike Media Ventures. The fact that I generally do not enjoy their music is irrelevant in that regard.

Jeff Rona's studio, if he can do it the way he wants to do it, sounds like a utopia for composers, and I look forward to its completion immensely. I hope it's not too good to be true.

With the utmost respect to all camps,

Kirk
NP - Princess Mononoke

quote:

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The friendships and relationships and comraderies are really good. But what is difficult is that it's Hans' business. And all of us were there because he wanted us there, but if he didn't, you weren't. There was a business arrangement, not a communal arrangement, because it's a business that belongs to one man and his partner.

That's how I perceive the place as well. MV feels more like a business designed to produce scores that sound like Hans Zimmer.

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A business that produces scores that sound like Hans Zimmer. This gives me the impression that Zimmer is into MV largely for the money. A business for producing scores that sound like yourself isn't also very modest in my opinion. He can produce scores on his own to give us the Zimmer sound, he doesn't need clones for that. Zimmer really disappoints me in this and I'm beginning to feel more and more negative towards MV.

If Zimmer is clever he should leave that place soon and should focus his energy on his own music before his reputation gets damaged anymore. Just read what critcs have to say about Pirates. They are eating it up. Filmtracks even gave Pirates only one star.

quote:

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Originally posted by ESB:
If Zimmer is clever he should leave that place soon and should focus his energy on his own music before his reputation gets damaged anymore. Just read what critcs have to say about Pirates. They are eating it up. Filmtracks even gave Pirates only one star.

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Do they matter? I suspect the critics you are talking about are the film music review sites.
The much more important film reviews tend to be less negative. In the end, a couple of fanboys writing reviews on the web matter a lot less than film reviews and popular response.

Just look at what's going on here:
# Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1

I doubt people are buying this because they hate it. And these are certainly not MV freaks buying 5-6 copies just to inflate sales.

We may be annoyed with the Zimmerklone Manufacturing Co, Ltd., but most people don't give a rat's ass.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dinko:
We may be annoyed with the Zimmerklone Manufacturing Co, Ltd., but most people don't give a rat's ass.

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Clayton

Just so you know, there's all sorts of cheeses to catch a rat or two (or three or four, or five or six, or...) on a ship. Aye, the variety and number of 'em scurryin at your feet an' slinkin in the shadows 'bove decks are legion.

Some are sly.
Some are slick.
Some are dry while others are quick.
There's some that preach and those who pet.
But a rat's a rat however it's tweaked.

Everywhere.

Whiskers atwitter. Eyes ablaze. Gnashing over crumbs.
At cross purposes from the need to feed, er plyin' each's wares.

So watch your step ye innocent soul. There be rats aboard. They rule these shores.

And they're very, very hungry.

No more for me.

Ask yourself why you believe you have any right to tell people who can and cannot respond to your thread. Whatever answer you come up with supporting such a silly notion is wrong, wrong, wrong.

You need to withdraw that pointy finger (before someone snaps or bites it off).

Only you bear any blame for your silliness: Never presume to tell anyone what to say or do on any board. You haven't the authority or the clout. You have a choice of ingnoring posts that didn't "obey" your unenforceable, and most inviting, warning.

And please show me where I've bashed or instigated bashing against MV in any of my comments! Why, I've barely mentioned MV at all except to pronounce my disappointment that it wasn't Milli Vanilli being discussed. That disappointment was hedged on the discussers being total lunatics, so imagine my total surprise that it needn't have been Milli Vanilli to attract such attention....

You previously claimed "we" have ruined the thread. I think the total lack of the kind of attention you hoped to draw is what "ruined" this thread...lack of support for your point of view, and lack of interest on the part of many of the posters. The rest of us have made your thread far more interesting than you've demonstrated a capability of doing. Look at it: It's still going strong, although you've had no one contribute anything that you found worth discussing. We've rather made a big success of a lemon of a thread.

You ought to be laughing your ass off.

You take yourself way too seriously... certainly far more than is now possible for me to consider taking you.

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 07-27-2003]

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 07-27-2003]

"That surely is your problem. I can`t say I`m a fan of 50`s horror music, but at least I don`t show up in threads about it, shouting my ignorant head off. Courtesy is an undervalued commodity...."

I apologize. Next time I will preface my post with something like the following:

"This post is NOT to be taken seriously. It is merely an attempt at humor based on a topic that was called: "Status of MV composers.... HATERS STAY THE HELL AWAY!" Because if the person who started the post REALLY wanted haters to stay away, he wouldn't have used such a defensive subject title."

Now, you don't REALLY want me to post warnings like that all the time, do you? Film music really shouldn't be taken so seriously unless you're actually working in the business and your income depends upon it. Otherwise, just enjoy what you enjoy, don't fight with others who don't like what you like, try to be open-minded, and above all, have a sense of humor!

(IMPORTANT NOTE: The question I posed "Now, you don't REALLY want me to post warnings like that all the time, do you?" was rhetorical -- it was NOT meant to be taken seriously.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Pulliam:
Ask yourself why you believe you have any right to tell people who can and cannot respond to your thread. Whatever answer you come up with supporting such a silly notion is wrong, wrong, wrong.

You need to withdraw that pointy finger (before someone snaps or bites it off).

Only you bear any blame for your silliness: Never presume to tell anyone what to say or do on any board. You haven't the authority or the clout. You have a choice of ingnoring posts that didn't "obey" your unenforceable, and most inviting, warning.

And please show me where I've bashed or instigated bashing against MV in any of my comments! Why, I've barely mentioned MV at all except to pronounce my disappointment that it wasn't Milli Vanilli being discussed. That disappointment was hedged on the discussers being total lunatics, so imagine my total surprise that it needn't have been Milli Vanilli to attract such attention....

You previously claimed "we" have ruined the thread. I think the total lack of the kind of attention you hoped to draw is what "ruined" this thread...lack of support for your point of view, and lack of interest on the part of many of the posters. The rest of us have made your thread far more interesting than you've demonstrated a capability of doing. Look at it: It's still going strong, although you've had no one contribute anything that you found worth discussing. We've rather made a big success of a lemon of a thread.

You ought to be laughing your ass off.

You take yourself way too seriously... certainly far more than is now possible for me to consider taking you.

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 07-27-2003]

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 07-27-2003]

[Message edited by Ron Pulliam on 07-27-2003]

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quote:

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PS: What about all those "new" names like Steven Jablonsky, Goeff Zanelli...
JR: They are all former assistants. There's my assistant James Levine. Then there's Goeff Zanelli who worked for John Powell.

Jim Dooley used to work for Hans. And Steve Jablonsky used to work for Harry. These are four less experienced composers. They are very experienced at helping out on other scores, but in terms of they own credits, they're just getting started. But it's not the same as with Harry, John or me, somebody doing their own work on a regular basis.

PS: Will they remain assistants or will they move up the ladder?

JR: Well, they are now junior composers...(edit)

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Funny to think that Rona, who is not himself a "junior composer" as he puts it, had to take an additional music credit along with Zanelli and his assistant James Levine on a crappy film like Chill Factor. With Zanelli's 22 movie credits, Jablonsky's multiple solo credits on good projects, and Levine's credits (What About Joan, Nip Tuck, an IMAX movie, etc.) I think it's long past "junior composer" days for them. Look at Jablonsky's career taking off, with Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Live From Baghdad, as well as additionals on Pirates and Bad Boys 2 while Maestro Rona scores a Traffic TV mini-series. Am I the only one who sees Rona as the bitter loser who even Zimmer wasn't able to help out career-wise? Anyone else sense bad blood between the two of them?

I think the "junior composer" comment, and really that whole quote up there is a pretty negative way to talk about these four guys, which leads me to ask: When have you ever heard a composer who has any class make negative comments, complete with
naming names and longwinded statements in the press? It simply doesn't happen.

Isn't it more likely that Rona is jealous of Zimmer's support for these guys (whereas Zimmer couldn't find a way to promote Rona after White Squall), and threatened by the prospect that their careers will launch them ahead of himself?

Look where his career has gone since he left: nowhere it hasn't been already. His excuse about building a studio is pathetic as well. My sense is he's grasping at straws, bitter that his career didn't take off there at MV, and is now resorting to attempts at knocking MV down as opposed to building himself up.

There's good news in all of this though. The fact that Rona wasn't "promotable" by the head of music at Dreamworks (Zimmer, if you weren't aware) means that TALENT is playing a part in the careers of those gracing MV. The cream rises, it seems.

Ok I know I don't post here much if at all, but please understand I'm not trying to flame here. I'm trying to read between the lines of that interview. I think the first part in particular shows such a lack of class it's pitiful. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this...

quote:

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Originally posted by Kosta:
Funny to think that Rona, who is not himself a "junior composer" as he puts it, had to take an additional music credit along with Zanelli and his assistant James Levine on a crappy film like Chill Factor. With Zanelli's 22 movie credits, Jablonsky's multiple solo credits on good projects, and Levine's credits (What About Joan, Nip Tuck, an IMAX movie, etc.) I think it's long past "junior composer" days for them. Look at Jablonsky's career taking off, with Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Live From Baghdad, as well as additionals on Pirates and Bad Boys 2 while Maestro Rona scores a Traffic TV mini-series. Am I the only one who sees Rona as the bitter loser who even Zimmer wasn't able to help out career-wise? Anyone else sense bad blood between the two of them?

I think the "junior composer" comment, and really that whole quote up there is a pretty negative way to talk about these four guys, which leads me to ask: When have you ever heard a composer who has any class make negative comments, complete with
naming names and longwinded statements in the press? It simply doesn't happen.

Isn't it more likely that Rona is jealous of Zimmer's support for these guys (whereas Zimmer couldn't find a way to promote Rona after White Squall), and threatened by the prospect that their careers will launch them ahead of himself?

Look where his career has gone since he left: nowhere it hasn't been already. His excuse about building a studio is pathetic as well. My sense is he's grasping at straws, bitter that his career didn't take off there at MV, and is now resorting to attempts at knocking MV down as opposed to building himself up.

There's good news in all of this though. The fact that Rona wasn't "promotable" by the head of music at Dreamworks (Zimmer, if you weren't aware) means that TALENT is playing a part in the careers of those gracing MV. The cream rises, it seems.

Ok I know I don't post here much if at all, but please understand I'm not trying to flame here. I'm trying to read between the lines of that interview. I think the first part in particular shows such a lack of class it's pitiful. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this...

[Message edited by Kosta on 07-28-2003]

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While your interpretation is interesting, I don't think I buy it. Rona's comments about those four guys being "junior composers" struck me not as a dig at their talents but as an actual title that they hold at Media Ventures. I have no way of knowing that, of course.

What you call class in interviews I usually call glaze. Most interviews that come from people in the entertainment industry are just as politically-minded as those that come from politics. Rona's interview, even though it still smells of some sugar-coating, struck me as uncommonly candid. Comments like this have happened before. There was Harry Gregson-Williams saying Goldsmith hasn't written an interesting score since Basic Instinct. Goldsmith wondering whether people "like Ford Thaxton" have a life.

Rona's interview simply felt honest to me. There very well may be bad blood between him and Zimmer, but it might be nothing more complicated than the two of them simply not getting along with each other. The whole Mozart/Salieri situation you're proposing feels a little contrived to me. But that's just my perspective: this is all just speculation on both of our parts, in the long run.

And talent may be playing a part in the careers of those gracing MV, but it's also playing a part in the careers of those leaving MV. The three most talented people there (Mark, John and Harry, in my opinion) are all gone now. Four if Gavin Greenaway has left (no one has mentioned him either way). Rona's departure looks pretty good for him if you judge it by those standards.

Interesting things to ponder. Thank you Kosta (and ESB up there) for trying to maintain a degree of thoughtfulness in this thread.