I like the "Car Chase" cue too. It's much more successful blend of orchestral and electronica elements then BALLISTIC.

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Originally posted by jonathan_little:
I thought this movie was supposed to be so great and amazing to force us to see the third film a few months later?

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Well, first off, no one is forcing you to see any movies.

Secondly, can you REALLY make a judgment on a film merely based on a few seconds of footage in the trailer? For all you know, this movie IS great and amazing. You haven't seen it, so quit worrying until you do.

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Originally posted by Norman McCay:
I was under the impression that JeffBond saw it....

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I wasn't talking about Jeff Bond - I was talking about Jonathan Little's comments. (Please re-read my post!)

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I thought the media screening doesn't take place until Monday?

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I'm sure there are many media screenings lined up for this one, over the next 2 weeks.

Dan

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Originally posted by JeffBond:
Davis wrote a cue for the "Burly Brawl" between Neo and 100 Agent Smiths. Not sure if it's on the album or not; I just got that today.

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Well, I got the released album, and there's a track called "Burly Brawl" crediting "Juno Reactor vs. Don Davis".

In fact, folks, removing the NON Davis tracks from the 2nd disc, you're left with (ahem) 37 minutes of Don Davis material.

So what is everyone bitching about??

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Originally posted by TimT:
I really don't agree with the use of electronica over the orchestra. I wasn't expecting a reshash of the first score, but the tone of Reloaded is so different from what I had come to associate with "The Matrix" set by the first score. Why was there a need to feel the score up with dance music? Now it sounds cheap, and less artistic.
Other than a couple cues, it just doesn't feel like a Matrix soundtrack.

I assume this score is highly misrepresented on this album. But as an album unassociated with The Matrix I think its ok, and I admit that I love driving to it.

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Well, keeping in mind that there is about 100 minutes of orchestral score, only 14-minutes or so are with electronics. I don't think that makes it misrepresentative of anything, though, since those tracks are in the film (well, maybe not one of them, as Jeff Bond suggested above).

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I thought the media screening doesn't take place until Monday?

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There were certainly one or two showings last week that I know of, one in the US and one in the UK certainly. Though neither two I was aware of were billed as press screenings.

A number of friends of mine (both on my side of the Atlantic and stateside) saw it last week and the general vibe seems to be the story taking backseat to vast action sequences catered for 14 year old aint it cool news readers who blow their load at the first sign of violence set to the beat of techno music...

The greatest surprise to me was my friend who is a giant Matrix fan, and relatively easy to please in what he sees up on screen. His comments met those of my other friends in stating that it's truly senseless overdrive in its action, which is funny as I always thought thats realy what my friend was into most with The Matrix, but everyone has their limits I guess.

Of course, given Reloaded bridges the gap between 1 & 3, it may have good excuse to be the utterly senseless film of the trilogy, though my friend didn't speak overly kindly of the 3 minute Revolutions preview that comes at the end of the credits either (but what can one gain form 3 minutes?).

Oddly I can't say I am all that shocked despite still looking forward to the film a good deal. There's a dangerous 'Episode I' anticipating factor regarding Reloaded which I am quite concerned about because one would have thought Phantom Menace taught a lot of people to calm down a little and keep moderate expectations (I like Ep1 for what its worth).

Usually during the summer period something will meet or go beyond expectations (X2 for me), something will surprise (Hulk or Pirates?) and something will inevitably disappoint (Reloaded?)...

I do love everything I have heard of the score I must admit. Where there is electronic influence I found the fusing of both electronic and orchestra to be very evenly mastered and well crafted. The pure energy of some of the score I just find wonderful.

Dan (UK)

[Message edited by Dan Brecher on 05-05-2003]

Heck, the two tracks ("Teahouse", "Chateau") sounds like an homage to Don Davis's music (especially "Chateau") that it makes a rather solid listening experience.

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Originally posted by JeffBond:
I'm underwhelmed. And it should be noted that the coolest cue Don Davis wrote for the score is pretty much MIA in the movie.

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I would have to echo Jeff's sentiments.

The missing cue is NOT "Burly Brawl", as I interpreted his comments to be. This particular cue is, however, one of my favorite cues that Don wrote, and not hearing it in the film was really a bummer.

The film itself was fun, but as has been said before, underwhelming. The burly brawl sequence and freeway chase, though, make it worth checking out. But the way it ends is pretty damn lame. Urgh. Stay through the end credits, though, for a pretty schweet teaser for MATRIX REVOLUTIONS.

hehehehehe

:-|

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Originally posted by JeffBond:
It's very difficult to give a damn about what happens to ANY character in this movie.

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Oh...then it is like a Scorsese picture.

Without spoilers, is it possible to inform us what exactly this MIA cue was?

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Originally posted by JeffBond:
I'm not even sure the freeway chase was worth it--any chase in Ronin, French Connection or To Live or Die in L.A. is more exciting. It's very difficult to give a damn about what happens to ANY character in this movie.

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Jeff, I said that the Burly Brawl AND the Freeway Chase made it worth it. Not just the chase.

Let's be honest here, people's expectations are just waaaaay too high. One of the folks I saw the movie with last night HATED it, and I understand why. It's not the best film they could have made, and I'm hoping REVOLUTIONS is better.

Norman, as for the missing cue, it's not on the soundtrack album, and not in the film.... so..... I'll see if the website might be a venue for it.

And another older reply to TimT...I don't necessarily see how one would want to "dance" to the Mona Lisa Overdrive or Burly Brawl (or even Chateau for that matter). I would rather kick some ass instead. Rhythm means dancing for most, but for some, them are fighting beats.

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Originally posted by Norman McCay:
only 14 minutes of the score from Juno Reactor/electronica all showed up on the album?

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Yup - "Burly Brawl" and "Mona Lisa Overdrive" are the only two Don Davis / Juno Reactor cues on the album, and total about 14 minutes.

And as for the TimT / dancing comment.... you really can't dance to these tracks, just cause they have electronic rhythms and percussion..... I mean, you CAN, but I don't wanna be in the same room when you do....

(Quick show of hands here - who dances to Williams' "The Hunt" from THE LOST WORLD? Anyone? No? Okay. Same deal. )

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Quick show of hands here - who dances to Williams' "The Hunt" from THE LOST WORLD? Anyone? No? Okay.

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I dunno, the Oakenfold rendition is pretty great.

Dan (UK)

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Originally posted by JeffBond:
BTW, the missing cue(s) ARE what Davis originally wrote for the Burly Brawl...you can still hear fragments of that material in the movie, including the end of the piece. Davis confirmed this to me...

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Yep - he also wrote a piece for the Chateau fight that was unused (they used Rob Doogan's piece instead). It's a very swashbuckling Williams/Korngold-esque cue. You can hear an excerpt from it on Don's site.

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Originally posted by Quill:
I am leary if there is enough story left to tell for a third film.

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but think about it, story was just part one of a two part sequel. What you saw was only half of the story intended.

I thought it was a richer film than the first, which admittedly I only have seen once, but I think that helped in viewing Reloaded. Unlike other fanboys, I do not have The Matrix memorized and burned into my brain. It seems that there are a lot of fanboys out there who do not like to be made to feel stupid and that is why there is so much backlash against this film. I don't think any of the naysayers will ever understand how truly intelligent Reloaded is.

I love the philosophy aspect, the tearing down of religious constructs, the idea that if you actually spoke with God (i.e. The Architect), He might actually blow your mind by revealing you are nothing more than a systemic anomoly.

I feel sorry for you who apparently do not enjoy thinking at the movies. I am sorry that you all have played so many video games that you no longer enjoy rich storytelling and challenging intellectual theories. Yes, The Matrix and Reloaded have some great action sequences but my favorite parts ended up being those which discussed existence, control and free will and whether or not we actually yield those in our daily lives.

Oh, and I have no idea why someone said Davis's "Burly Brawl" was not included in the film - I heard it from beginning to end in the version I just saw this afternoon and it was glorious!!

[Message edited by TV's Frank on 05-26-2003]

If you feel your argument is strong (which you obviously do), you should attack the issue itself, not the people who disagree.

For my part, I hated the Matrix Reloaded because it didn't engage my brain until the last twenty minutes, which were not good enough to make up for the first two hours. What I loved about the first film was the combination of fantastic action sequences with rich, detailed, multi-layered levels of thought and intrigue. But Reloaded never comes together. It amounts to little more than the standard fare of Hollywood summer action flicks, and whenever a genuine thought is attempted it feels like the Wachowskis are gasping for air while drowning in a swamp of commercialism. No real point is ever made or real question ever asked.

But my distaste doesn't end there. The action sequences, while perhaps technically marvelous, had no effect on me but boredom. The film failed to generate any investment in the characters, and as a result I felt no sense of threat at any point in the film. Without any emotional involvement, the action sequences are meaningless.

On top of that, Keanu Reeves' eternally dumbfounded expression, which worked great in the first film, severely hinders his performance in this one. Whereas in The Matrix his coldness could be interpreted as detachment due to being thrown into a new, unfamiliar world, in The Matrix Reloaded his coldness is only that: cold.

As it stands, I think there's about 25 minutes of significant material in The Matrix Reloaded (the last 20 minutes, plus the scene where Neo is talking to the counselor in the machine room, which is extremely important if my theory is correct). Perhaps Revolutions will eventually justify the other nearly two hours that I thought was totally meaningless. Perhaps when Revolutions comes out I will love Reloaded, and I will watch them together with great joy and satisfaction. In fact, I'm hoping that's exactly what happens. But that will not change how I feel about Reloaded as a film unto itself. On its own, Reloaded is (with the exception of those 25 minutes) lifeless and thoughtless.

Kirk
NP - The Matrix Reloaded (...but the score was marvelous)

There's a whole onion of plot layers that is rooted in classical and biblical myths and literatures...
I never saw the bad movie that some people claimed. And I've read all the negative reviews before going in.

To Frank

Don't worry about it. I was in a bad mood myself. I still am, actually, so I'll try to keep myself under control here.

That article Hadrian pointed us to does indeed add a lot more to Reloaded than I had anticipated, and I will gladly repeal my comments about the film lacking ideas. But nevertheless, I can't really do anything about the fact that I simply didn't like the movie. It doesn't change the fact that the action sequences failed to instill any sense of threat or meaning in me. In the first film when Neo decides not to run from Agent Smith in the subway, that fight really felt like it meant something, that it was important. I never got that feeling in Reloaded. I never got much of any feeling in Reloaded.

And I still don't feel that the movie holds up on its own. I know it's the middle film, but The Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers are also middle films, and they stand alone firmly as great stories. The editor said somewhere that he cut the two sequels as if they were one movie, which I think was a poor decision. Reloaded should definitely leave you wanting more, but it shouldn't leave you feeling unsated. But clearly, those of us who were unsated were in the minority.

I may end up discussing The Matrix Reloaded at great length with many people after this information. It's obvious now that there's a lot there. But I'm afraid I'll have very little desire to sit through it again until it's out on DVD and I can fast forward through the action scenes (and that party in Zion).

quote:

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Originally posted by TV's Frank:
I love the philosophy aspect, the tearing down of religious constructs, the idea that if you actually spoke with God (i.e. The Architect), He might actually blow your mind by revealing you are nothing more than a systemic anomoly.

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Ah, but some have theorised that the Arhitect is the Lucifer of the matrix world - a being of undeniable power (and near perfection) whose self-admiration is his principal flaw. He cannot fathom the mystery of humanity, equating control with understanding, and interpreting his own control of the human race as a perfect understanding of it. However his lack of perfect control stems from an imperfect understanding of the subject of study. But recall from his own mouth the admission that he still hasn't got human control right - this is the sixth iteration of his algorithm to perfect the enslavement of the human race.

The first was a 'monumental failure', a failure in equal measure to the perfection of its construct. Each has got closer to the goal, but it is an asymptotic learning curve that ever approaches and never converges the desired position. And for the sixth time it fails - the random element is as beyond machine (read: the created being's) calculation as (ironically enough) that most simple of things: the ability to express a real number exactly.

And what more can be said of the Lucifer connection? I liked what the Corporate Mofo article said about the Architect being a being whose control of existence in the matrix was likely tenuous and most probably only true in appearances. He is the unwilling, and probably unwitting, agent of a force, indeed a will that is not his own.

This is a theme riddled through Christian tradition and Jewish history - constantly in the Prophets, we see these figures of power raised up by God to serve the Almighty's purposes for a period (e.g. Nebuchadrezzar, Cyrus the Great). Such figures may claim dominion, but it is a dominion that is never really theirs, if possession is defined as the ability to take away at a moment's notice. And Lucifer (let's call him Satan and recgonise his current relationship to the human race as Enemy, not object of aspiration) is the ultimate version of this type: vain, menacing, and ultimately with an advantage that is over the mind, not the spirit. He is defeated in the end, a pre-determined end, but allowed to test the Faithful in the present era according to most standard theology.

It would also suit the classical megalomaniac paradigm if an object of control of the Arhcitect (i.e. Neo) turned out to be the means of his destruction. Every Christian maxim about the devices of the Evil being turned to the benefit of the Righteous is obviously applicable here. The greater will (not intelligence) behind the Matrix, and who is to say it isn't the Oracle ('an intuitive program'), turns the plots of the Architect against him, by using an Antichrist as the real Messiah.

These are all excessively ponderous musings, and probably wouldn't sound out of place in the Reloaded script! I await Revolutions with interest, though my expectations have been lowered by Reloaded. At times it felt like 1999 and TPM all over again...

NP Matrix Reloaded

I just wanted to say I went in with normal expectations and was blown away. This is definetely the best eye candy I have ever seen - a true feast for the senses. Although the Burly Brawl and the Freeway sequences were obvious highlights, there were a lot of little bits that I really liked.

With regards to music, I was in that weird position of having heard the soundtrack a zillion times beforehand (something I avoid doing with Star Wars and LOTR films). I guess it did detract a bit from the experience, but on the other hand I was pleasantly surprised.

I thought all the cues fit like a glove, and finally seeing where all the operatic moments of Mona Lisa Overdrive fit in was great. Davis' score also managed to demand attention, especially during the arrival at Zion.

My only 2 gripes were that at times it did seem like simply a number of superb action sequences linked up by artsy-fartsy dialogue, and that after the freeway chase I kept expecting it to end and minute bbut it kept going. But I guess that's part of the fun, and I guess it just shows what a climax the freeway bit was.

Great stuff overall.

With regards to the Revolutions teaser, I was very pleased to hear Newton Howard's 'Tarawa' piece used. It sounded 10 times better than the Fluke track used in the similar teaser tagged onto the video game. God knows why 'Tarawa' hasn't been used in countless trailers before.