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Actually, Lancelot, my contrast of Goldsmith to Woods should illustrate just how objectively--just how fact-based--I am approaching this subject.

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Originally posted by workaluk:
I must say i love Goldsmith,he is one of the best composers i have ever listenend,but if this score was to be like LAST CASTLE,SUM OF ALL FEARS or ALONG CAME A SPIDER,then i very much welcome Brian Tyler,in the last years the only score i really liked by Goldsmith was ST:NEMESIS,the others are very poor.........

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LAST CASTLE is growing on me. I didn't really like it at first, but particularly since hearing Jerry conduct it at the Barbican last month, I've rediscovered it. SUM OF ALL FEARS isn't that good on CD; there are too many songs and source cues.

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Originally posted by Mark Olivarez:
Did Justin Boggan write the main letter on the petition page????

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No, a guy going by the name "John Hammond" from Hong Kong wrote it.

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Originally posted by Mark Olivarez:
Honestly does anyone really expect Goldsmith, based on his past few years of work, to really come up with something that doesn't sound like a re-hash of his last 8 or 10 scores?

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Originally posted by Mark Olivarez:
Did Justin Boggan write the main letter on the petition page????

Yeah that will get their attention, a poorly written and phrased letter.

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For laughs, this petition has been printed out at Paramount and laminated into placemats for the studio commissary.

Mississauga - Scott Paper, a Kruger Company, announces its all new flagship brand of premium bathroom tissue... Paramount.
Featuring the Paramount Pictures logo on every sheet.
Single-sheet hard sandy paper is used on this bathroom paper to maximize the feeling of pain, akin to that felt by fanboys when their composer is flushed.

Paramount Paper was not tested on animals.

It is the leading paper for the ultimate protection against SARS.

Further details on our website: http://www.scottpaper.ca/consumer/paramount/paramount.html

Throughout the '60s, '70s and much of the '80s, Goldsmith proved himself to be one of the most versatile, inventive and fascinating composers in cinema history, constantly displaying a gift for successfully nailing virtually every movie genre in the book, from bluesy film noir (CHINATOWN) to jazzy spy spoof (OUR MAN FLINT), and from romantic comedy (THE LONELY GUY) to space epic (STAR TREK:TMP), and from horror (THE FINAL CONFLICT) to fantasy (LEGEND), and from animated (SECRET OF NIMH) to action movie (FIRST BLOOD).

Each of these scores was not only crammed full of memorable themes and stunning cues (to the point where Goldsmith's trademark rhythmic energy became almost immediately recognisable), but also each score had an authentic sound wholly relevant to the movie's genre. So while Goldsmith's *style* could instantly be detected, each score was very much a unique composition.

Sadly, during the past ten years, each of Goldsmith's scores has had that 'samey' feel - you know, whatever the genre, be it a western or a medieval epic, Goldsmith tended not only to recycle the same motifs (such as the main theme to US MARSHALS) but his music lost that authentic identity which is so crucial to defining the essence of a western score or a romantic comedy.

Furthermore, Goldsmith has tended to recycle diluted versions of his own thematic material (compare the banal main theme to FIRST KNIGHT with his wonderful work on LIONHEART), and worse he has begun to plagiarise other composers' work with increasing regularity. His work on CITY HALL, and especially LA CONFIDENTIAL is quite simply a rip-off of Bernstein's seminal ON THE WATERFRONT. And his SHADOW theme merely comes across as an inferior 'Batman' clone. And then there are his rejected scores to THE PUBLIC EYE, GLADIATOR (1992), TWO DAYS IN THE VALLEY and his paritially rejected LOVE FIELD - and it was rumoured that John Barry was to have replaced Goldsmith on CITY HALL, but the producers didn't bother in the end because the movie was bound to fail at the box office anyway. These rejections indicate Goldsmith's growing inflexibility and declining versatility.

Yes, it is sad that Goldsmith's long and impressive career is petering out in this way, especially since Goldsmith never quite became as well-known as John Williams and James Horner, or even Ennio Morricone, John Barry, Elmer Bernstein, Michel Legrand, Henry Mancini, Maurice Jarre and so on.

You see, each of those composers has made a name for themselves by composing music that has become part of popular culture (for example, Barry with his Bond scores, Midnight Cowboy etc, Morricone with his spaghetti westerns, chi mai and so on). Okay, so Goldsmith did Dr Kildare, The Waltons and Star Trek, but even these themes are nowhere near as popular or as well-known as the best that Williams and Bernstein have composed.

Obviously I wish Goldsmith every success for the future if he chooses to continue composing for film, but personally I don't hold out any hope for any worthwhile music. Having reached his nadir with Nemisis, I find it hard to believe that Goldsmith can recover his past abilities. Indeed, looking back over the past ten years (since his brilliant work on BASIC INSTINCT) the his work has been notable for its absence of quality than for any great scores (though THE 13TH WARRIOR was a fine effort). Just think of the embarrassingly inept main theme to MR BASEBALL, his cringe-making scoring of ANGIE, his lacklustre BAD GIRLS, and his hilariously dated work on CHAIN REACTION - these atrocities are far more prominent than his better efforts such as FIERCE CREATURES, THE MUMMY and EXECUTIVE DECISION.

I guess it all began to go wrong long before FOREVER YOUNG (the first of his really disappointing '90s scores). I remember when I heard LEVIATHAN for the first time, and I thought then, this is the very first Goldsmith score that seemed to lack Of course, classic scores like THE RUSSIA HOUSE, GREMLINS II and TOTAL RECALL followed, but the rot really set in with MEDICINE MAN. A good score in parts, but it was far too similar to Jarre and Barry. BASIC INSTINCT was a brilliant score, but since then Goldsmith has never recaptured his past glories.

Goldsmith's rejection from TIMELINE is of course disappointing, but if his score wasn't good enough, then I would of course prefer a more enthusiastic, inventive and versatile (ie younger) composer who can serve the needs of the movie more successfully.

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Originally posted by HAL 2000:
One of your more level-headed assessments in a long time Daniel Cunningham.

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Thank you rnelson.

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Originally posted by Bulldog:
I'd still disagree with it.

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You mean you don't think that '...throughout the '60s, '70s and much of the '80s, Goldsmith proved himself to be one of the most versatile, inventive and fascinating composers in cinema history....'

THE HUMANITY!!

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Originally posted by miss tonya:
I got halfway through that diatribe until I realised it was from HIM!

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No doubt due to the fact you were reading an honest and objective account of Jerry Goldsmith's declining abilities in recent years.

Ha, ha.....and the fact you admit to watching The Price is Right does tend to illuminate your inadequacy more than any blind worship of Jerry Goldsmith could......come to think of it that makes you perfect 'board moderator' material.....

Though there is rampant speculation on why Goldsmith's score, which reportedly was loved by both Micheal Crichton and Richard Donnor, was replaced it might seem that significant reshoots and edits have made his score no longer fitting for the movie. (See http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2003-05/08/13.00.film) It does seem odd that his score was completely recorded at great monetary cost by such enthusiastic collaborators before a replacement was hired.

Some report that Goldsmith was either unavailable for or unwilling to rescore. It is also well-known that the composer's health is not good as he has been forced to cancel some recent public appearances as well as a screening of Joe Dante's new movie, which he has signed to score.

But all that aside what do you think of Elmer Bernstein's rejection form Gangs of New York, Micheal Danna's from The Hulk, Craig Armstrong's from Tomb Raider, and Alan Silvestri's being replaced on Pirates of the Carribean. On the surface it would seem that Goldsmith isn't the only one who's work has been pinpointed by movie producers.

Joe

You make some very interesting and cogent points. There does seem to have been a glut of 'composer shuffling' during the past year.......is it merely coincidence or is it symptomatic of an underlying trend in moviemaking procedure?

But first of all, as to Goldsmith's specific rejection from 'Timeline'. Yes, there has been a lot of speculation about re-shoots, poor test-screening results, ill-health and so on. The burning question in many people's minds is, was Goldsmith invited to re-score the movie or was he simply dismissed without any opportunity to amend his work.

At this stage I don't know for sure. But what I can say is that Goldsmith is a fiercely single-minded gentleman who has a low tolerance level when it comes to bullsh!t from others. The man knows his own mind, and whilst he is willing to collaborate with moviemakers he respects (such as Verhoeven), he sees the film composer as largely determining his own destiny on any given movie. Whilst such attributes are laudable, this 'inflexibility' does tend to work against him in certain instances. But it's this strong individual streak that has made the man one of the greatest composers in cinema history. Furthermore, if he was unable to re-score the movie on health grounds, then he isn't the kind of guy to go around bleating about it.

As to the current bout of composer musical chairs, personally I see this as coming about due to a greater awareness on the part of filmmakers of the importance of music in their movies. I realise this is a contentious issue and that many people at this board will disagree with my POV. However, I believe filmmakers are responding more and more to the requirements and expectations of the target demograph (young adults). Personally, I see this as a good thing, but I accept that most film score enthusiasts who generally prefer the more symphonically-orientated score probably do not. I fully understand the disappointment many at this board feel when a favourite composer such as Goldsmith or Bernstein has a score tossed aside......but that's the nature of the business. Without wanting to sound preachy, the film composer is hired to serve the needs of the picture (ie the director/producer's overall vision) - therefore he is very vulnerable to rejection, sometimes it is justified, sometimes it isn't.

Whatever the actual reasons behind Goldsmith's rejection from 'Timeline', this does not of course alter my opinion that his work has deteriorated alarmingly during the course of the past ten years. And the trend is these days for the more 'traditional' orchestrally-dominant filmscore composers to be at greater risk from dismissal, hence the replacement of Goldsmith and Bernstein on recent projects.

This is not to say that orchestral music in movie scores is going out of fashion, far from it. It's merely the style in which the orchestra is utilised and the addition of solo instrumentalists, vocalists and electronics that governs the success of a modern score. Established composers such as Horner, Zimmer and Williams continue to successfully adapt to these changing requirements, whilst the newer composers are themselves leading the further progression and sophistication of the film score.

Again, many people will disagree with me and state their belief that the modern film score, rather than becoming more sophisticated, is actually being dumbed-down for the masses. I understand that POV, but I don't see it like that at all.

Granted, the emphasis these days is shifting away from the carefully, almost symphonically structured film scores of Korngold, North, Goldsmith etc, and the modern film score is being characterised by a greater variety and increased versatility (and parodoxically greater subservience) on the part of the composer. This means there is less formal structure to most film scores, not least due to the increased number of composers/arrangers working on any single project (led by Media Ventures).....but this is compensated for (in my opinion) by the greater relevance and effectiveness of individual cues

Think back to movies like High Noon, the early Bond films, Laura, and many scores from Mandel, Macini and Legrand from the '50s and '60s.......so many of them featured songs (written by the score composer) that became big popular successes in the Hit Parade of that time. Furthermore, the song, be it Goldfinger or Do not foresake me, also served as the seed for the rest of the score (or the song was based on thematic material from the score). These days it is much more unusual for the score composer to write a song which is heard during the movie......indeed, if a song is specially composed for the movie, it is usually by an established rock star and the music is totally unrelated to the dramatic score - therefore the film score is much more a collaborative process nowadays, and the dramatic score composer is much less prominent than he/she used to be. The days of the Music Director are long gone.

All of these factors have eroded the position, status and importance of the composer in the overall moviemaking process. Hence an increase in rejected scores and the growing vulnerability of some of the veteran composers.

Nemesis. It sucked so bad, I even had to send my copy to the Netherlands.

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Originally posted by miss tonya:
I wouldn't call my affinity for Mr. Goldsmith's music "Blind Worship", simply because I happen to enjoy all of his music......

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All of his music......all, did you say?

With that kind of wildly subjective thinking and absurd bias it seems you are even more suited to board moderation than I first thought......Joe must be quaking in his boots!

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Originally posted by JoeInSanDiego:
All I can say is...you encourage it by responding to it. You want it to go away...ignore it...or beat it to death. Either way works for me.

Joe

P.S. He isn't interested in the truth...just bashing. With nothing else to do throughout the day (god forbid take a shower) but post...I'm sure he feels he has so MUCH to say...pity it's the same line over and over and over ad nauseum. When will the people at this board realize that to respond gives him something to come back with? Or are you REALLY interested?

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Talk about obsession......

You turn up here in your capacity as 'defender of righteous justice' and tell other people to ignore my postings? But it's okay for you to respond to them, if only to vainly attempt to undermine my opinions with puerile comments that betray your omnipresent sour grapes.

And since when has anyone 'beat me' at these message boards, Joey? Unless you mean banning me from posting as DANIEL2 at the FSM board......wow, some victory that was......rather like a fascist dictator silencing his critics by locking them up......that makes you the loser, sunshine.

And where am I 'bashing'? You are so uncontrollably obsessed with all things Goldsmith that you have failed to recognise my glowing reviews of George Fenton's 'White Mischief' and Philippe Sarde's 'Ghost Story' elsewhere at this board, and you have conveniently avoided my enormous 'recommended listening' threads where I discuss a whole range of music that I love in the most positive light imaginable.

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Originally posted by miss tonya:
.. I also happen to love ALL of The Beatles' music...

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I largely agree with you there, mainly due to the fact that Goldsmith didn't write any of the Beatles music.....

Specifically, "Timeline is going through major changes (thanks in no small part to audience testing...the bane of today's filmmakers) and, with Goldsmith's other commitments, it would have been impractical for him to sit around and rescore the film later, once the necessary changes were made. For all intents and purposes, it was a phenomenal score that was pretty much loved by everyone...alas...it was for a movie that has since been tossed aside in favor of it's new incarnation."

Once again Joe spins a very tall tale in an attempt to portray his wish-fulfilment and ill-informed opinion as actual fact. Joe is in absolutely no position to arrive at these conclusions, which basically distorts reality in an attempt to exonerate Goldsmith of any blame for producing what was reportedly a very patchy score. The fact is that elements of Goldsmith's 'Timeline' score did not meet with universal approval, irrespective of the need for any forthcoming movie re-shoots......however, it remains unclear at this stage whether or not Goldsmith was invited to re-score elements of the movie or was simply dismissed.

Apart from anything else, I wonder if Joe has actually heard Goldsmith's score to 'Nemesis' - surely he can see that if Goldsmith is capable of producing as mediocre a score as this then the composer is obviously becoming increasingly vulnerable to rejection.

So please don't fall for Joe's ludicrously biased rose-tinted account of this latest disappointing chapter in Goldsmith's faltering career.

Don

BTW Contrary to what some have said at here and at FSM (specifically Jim Cleveland, whoever he is), I am not 'glad' that Goldsmith's 'Timeline' score was rejected. I too hoped that Goldsmith would produce a fine score worthy of a potentially enjoyable movie. However, based on Goldsmith's declining abilities during the past ten years, it's just that I am not surprised he has been rejected again. There is a difference you know. Furthermore, I have made no mention of 'Hollow Man' in this context........whilst I don't think Goldsmith's 'Hollow Man' is by any means a classic score, it is at least 'above average' for recent Goldsmith.

I have two words that perfectly describe you.

Buck futter.

That is all.

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Originally posted by Hornerfan:
Buck futter.

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If that's supposed to be some kind of 'insult' then that makes you a homophobe as well as an imbecile.......which does little to undermine the commonly held perception of the average 'caring' and 'intellectual' Republican, which is a pity because some Republicans are okay, albeit somewhat misguided.

And it's funny how you waited until 'Don' was banned to crawl out from under your rock.....that makes you a coward as well......but we already knew that......

As for calling me insane, that's really funny coming from a sad-case who listens to soundtrack albums (like George W Bush calling Bill Gates stupid)......add to that your laughable obsession with pro-wrestling and you're the kind of schmuck less worthy to stick to the bottom of my boot than a piece of dogsh!t ......

Doniel

D2, play nice.

(Read that and more in Justin's new book: "Fruitless Endeavors".)

A review of his rejected score

Actual clips!

PARAMOUNT.

Now...what do YOU think are the odds of this coming out any time soon?