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      Should a score be self-effacing or in-your-face?

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    Topic:   Should a score be self-effacing or in-your-face?

     rachmaninov
     Click Here to Email rachmaninov
     Romulan
     


    SO, What do you think?

    I personally like when both the music and the scene astonishes me, and I don’t even know in which of them I should focus my attention. Like everything, a film must be well balanced. Good music used just at the right time will really cause a great effect on the audience.
    On the other hand, when the movie is terrible, but the music is good (like some Jerry Goldsmith’s) I’m okay with that since I’d not be wasting my time. (This is not supposed to happen though. Good music for good films = I’m happy)

    However, what do you think?

    Rach

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    posted 03-06-2003 07:10 PM PT (US)     

     Dinko
     Click Here to Email Dinko
     Romulan
     

    I think that webpage sums up exactly what I think.

    Take Star Wars The Phantom Menace. It may be good music, but given the way the music was chopped up and mixed in the movie, it was a bad movie score.

    I don't think the question is with noticing the music, but rather with how distracting it is.

    It is hard not to notice the music in the old epic mega movies from the 50's/60's. Somehow, though, that music worked. Many movies have distracting movie scores.

    Although in many cases, the problem is not with the composer, but rather with the movie's editing and sound mixing. (Along Came a Spider is one example in which I thought Goldsmith's score worked brilliantly with the images, but the volume of the music was so loud relative to the other sound effects that the music ruined everything else in the movie by calling such strong attention to itself.)

    Does a score need to be all droning underscore so that it goes unnoticed and only supports the emotions on screen? Of course not.

    The best score is the one that you do notice, but one which does not distract you from the movie's story.

    On the other hand, many of the movies with the best scores have been so lame, that to pass the time all I did was listen to the music (The Mummy comes to mind) and did all I could to notice the score and forget the movie.

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    posted 03-07-2003 05:06 AM PT (US)     

     Swashbuckler
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     Romulan
     

    This is a question that has been floating around since the beginning.

    I have come to the conclusion that it depends on the film. Some films require that the music be more subdued and subliminal, while other films work better with a more colorful musical accompaniment.

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    posted 03-07-2003 01:30 PM PT (US)     

     Graham Watt
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     Romulan
     

    I also agree that it depends on the film. Certainly in the "larger than life" movies like STAR WARS and the Bond saga, the music should be at the forefront. The only danger in those cases is when it's trite music. Even in superficially more "realistic" movies, strong music can be brilliantly effective. An action film like THE CASSANDRA CROSSING benefitted enormously from a great Goldsmith score. In that film, there's a chase in a hospital right at the start in which the sound effects are dialled down, and Goldsmith's aggressive scoring makes the scene work like a kind of "ballet of violence". The Leone westerns wouldn't have worked at all without Morricone's operatic approach. So some films can exploit an operatic approach (and those who disagree, just think how ridiculous it would be going to see an opera without music).

    But of course, most films don't need that, and it would be horrendous if Ken Loach movies were scored in that way. It would also be horrendous if Ken Loach movies were scored in a "wallpaper ambience" style, so in most cases it's a difficult line to walk. But that's the composer's job.

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    posted 03-08-2003 02:32 PM PT (US)     

     Alexborn007
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     Romulan
     

    I definitely agree with it depending on the movie. Unfortunately, many times the score is just thrown into the movie without care and chopped up (Phantom Menace) to fit.

    An unfortunate case was with David Arnold's score for Godzilla. It was a rather rousing and well done score, but there was too much going on and it only surfaces a few times. Its a shame too.

    Ideally, I think a score should seamlessly blend into a movie and add to the atmosphere. When it is serene, the music should act like a sound effect or character that sets the tone. In a triumphant or important scene, the theme or fanfare should take over the SFX and dominate the audio. This works most of the time, but scores can become so worked into the film that people fail to pick it up.

    Definitely depends, but I do enjoy a score that can do both. (self-efface and be loud)

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    posted 03-08-2003 05:07 PM PT (US)     

     Lou Goldberg
     Click Here to Email Lou Goldberg
     Romulan
     

    I don't think there's an either-or answer. It depends on the film. One of my pet peeves is Sonic Wallpaper which is so self-effacing that it's practically non-existent. There are cases where a low-key subtle approach might work wonders but Star Trek episodes demand a little more Umph to their scoring. In your face music can really work (see Herrmann) or it can go over the top and call attention to itself in a negative way. Dinko is right on this, as long as the music supports and doesn't distract, then it's on track. It all depends on what is going to be effective in getting the proper emotion across in the scene. If the scene requires a bold sweeping treatment, then by all means. If it requires something subtle, then a one-two punch is all wrong. In general, I think scores should be heard, which means no low mixing, no Sonic Wallpaper. I don't believe scores are subliminal, you have to hear them for your brain to include their contribution to the whole. It's just that there's a line where the score can become too much for the image, either too loud or too overdone, and that line shouldn't be crossed unless going for a deliberate effect.

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    posted 03-09-2003 02:00 AM PT (US)     

     Bulldog
     Romulan
     

    A film score should be very noticable and accessible to an active listening audience [and filmgoers should (watch and) listen actively]. Audiences should not just notice a well-designed score; they should also think about its dramatic implications.

    This is because film is a communicative artform.

    P.S: There are a number of problems with that short essay for which Rachmaninov provided a link. First and foremost, it neglects the consequences of film as a communicative artform. The other problems stem from that missing, fundamental premise.

    [Message edited by Bulldog on 03-09-2003]

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    posted 03-09-2003 06:01 AM PT (US)     

     Lou Goldberg
     Click Here to Email Lou Goldberg
     Romulan
     

    Do I go up against the Bulldog again? Sure. I've told this story before but it bears repeating. I knew a guy who worked in a video store who liked to recommend movies to people. The one thing he heard over and over was: "I don't want a movie that makes me think." Sad, but true. But the lesson here is: you can't force people to watch movies with the proper attention level you think they should. Besides, the average guy hasn't learned to follow form. I listen to music but I've never taken a music theory course. When I sit down and close my eyes and really listen and analyze the music, I can appreciate the form and get something more out of it but I "stop dancing to the beat" as it were. If the average guy were watching a film and following the editing, the lighting, the camera work, the music, the blocking, any visual symbols, as well as the narrative and performances, there's the fear of losing the emotion through attention and analysis. Imagine going on a roller coaster and feeling nothing because you're counting the struts in the construction. The average guy goes to the movie to be swept away: if he knows how the magic trick is done, he won't gasp, and he's there to gasp, not to learn about magic. Plus, a movie isn't a concert and movie music is only one element of the whole and it's a supporting element not a predominant one. Music should be loud enough and active enough so that it registers on people--with low mixes and Sonic Wallpaper, how can you get any emotion out of what you can't hear or what isn't music--but it shouldn't be too loud or so in your face that it ruins producing an emotion by calling out, "Look, I'm form, I'm form." It isn't completely either-or, as there are some who can get a lot of form and still hold onto the emotional side as well. When I was younger, I thought you get a lot out of waking up to form, it was something everyone should do, but now I like to retain a little illusion. It's like making love with an older or imperfect woman: she looks better when the lights are off. The cinema is canned and imperfect life: for it to work, you need to watch it in the dark as well.

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    posted 03-09-2003 10:31 PM PT (US)     

     joan hue
     Click Here to Email joan hue
     Romulan
     

    We "older women" (and imperfect) do not necessarily find the Jack Nicholson's of the world real sexy either, but some men really do find us attractive and loveable.


    NP Waxman Vol. I.

    [Message edited by joan hue on 03-10-2003]

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    posted 03-10-2003 10:43 AM PT (US)     

     Bulldog
     Romulan
     

    That's audiences' problems, I'd say, Lou; it doesn't change the communicative process for what it is.

    An analogy: I'm sure there are many college students who do not pay attention to their professors in class; this doesn't mean that a professor should not aim to make his lectures accessible for anyone who [properly] wants to listen to him.

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    posted 03-10-2003 03:42 PM PT (US)     

     Lou Goldberg
     Click Here to Email Lou Goldberg
     Romulan
     

    Joan--The whole thing was a metaphor anyways to suggest that nitpicking can destroy what would otherwise be a good thing. I love older women, it's just that sometimes with the lights on you see a few more creases than you'd find completely attractive and that can throw you off a little, unless of course you're the kind of guy like me, who is all-accepting, unconditionally loving, and able to appreciate people for their flaws

    Bulldog--Good analogy but I can still turn a spin on it. First though, it's true that many movies dumb down their content because they don't trust that the audience can deal with anything subtle or ambivalent. I'm sure you and I both have strong ideas of how cinema SHOULD present itself and how it SHOULD be responded to. But, first, it's probably outside our hands unless we make films ourselves or go to films made by less mainstream filmmakers. Also, films are generally made for a wide audience which further explains why they are dumbed down and geared to the lowest common demoninator and audience expectations. As I've said before many times, they are like Coke, cheap, standardized, able to be understood by all levels of society, but not unsatisfying. You may think it's better to articulate every element in the structure equally and have the viewer intellectually combine them to reach a statement that thinking about will create an emotion from. But emotion does not always follow thinking as a cause and effect. Knowing all about chocolate or knowing nothing about it at all doesn't change the taste of it one bit. And it won't change my physiology, I either like chocolate or I don't. In that case, analysis neither creates nor effects the emotion one way or another. Drama doesn't contact the senses the way food does, it involves an intellectual element, but I think one of the elements that makes drama effect the emotions is the suspension of disbelief. This still requires that a drama follow a certain logic and verisimilitude, but it also requires a cloaking and illusion, the idea that this is for play and pretend. To put everthing up front breaks the fourth wall, it breaks the illusion, and is like calling the plays instead of actually playing the game. And so, it's probably a killjoy. So, from my own point of view, film music shouldn't come too much to the fore. In your analogy just because the students didn't listen to the prof, that was no reason for the prof to simplify things. But there are cases where the prof's communication skills are at fault too: he's too dry, he hammers the same points in over and over with too much emphasis, he either says too little or provides too much, he speaks into space to hear himself talk rather than talk to the students, or he panders to the students at the expense of passing on knowledge, etc. All these things make it hard on the students to get what they can out of the lecture. Lastly, the word 'intellectualizing' is in the vocabulary for a reason: it describes a real human action, that of thinking too rationally and not giving proper regard to emotion. Emotion and intellect do not have to be at odds, but one can wipe out the other. If emotion wipes out intellect, it can lead to manslaughter. But if intellect wipes out emotion, it can lead to a bad filmgoing experience.

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    posted 03-10-2003 10:08 PM PT (US)     

     Bulldog
     Romulan
     

    Lou, I know you are familiar with objective philosophy, so, first of all and just in general, I will remind you of the consequential nature of emotions.

    In the art of communication, the burden rests with the communicator--always. But, an audience needs to be receptive or else it's all for naught. That was my point.

    Just as the taste of chocolate is the taste of chocolate, film and music in film are what they are--essentially acts of communication. Realizing that, I enjoy film all the more when I actively engage as a listener and observer.

    I know I'm replying selectively to your last post [mostly for lack of time]. If it bothers you that I haven't addressed a particular point, let me know and I'll do my best to respond.

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    posted 03-11-2003 05:46 AM PT (US)     

     Lou Goldberg
     Click Here to Email Lou Goldberg
     Romulan
     

    BD--Emotions are "consequential" only in that they are usually (but not always) in response to something experienced in the environment. One can respond emotionally to thoughts but the Zen Buddhists will tell you this will break your calm and sever your mental connection with the present. Thinking, when "proper" merely interprets in language what your body already feels in its solar plexus. But most people's thinking spins from their ego without any grounding in the physical. When thoughts do not correlate to direct experience, you can get caught up in them. A thought may appear: That guy ripped me off. The next thing you know, you are fuming, adrenaline pumping, ready with your fists or a gun. Then you look at things a second time and realize, no I wasn't ripped off after all. You reacted to what you thought was the case and how you believe you should behave under those circumstances when reality was something other and you got worked up over nothing. Thinking can be a trickster.

    As for taking your awareness into the films you watch, it is a double-edged sword. For you BD, this may be the best approach to filmwatching, the one in which you personally get the most of out the experience. I can't argue with that, I can only say that just because it works best for you, it still might not be the best approach for everyone.

    Here's a very recent example. This morning I watched the 1999 TV film The Crossing which showed on A&E. The Crossing has a score by Gary Chang. In one sequence, troops are standing by just before a surprise attack. Over shots of the men and officers in readiness, Chang resorts to a percussive beat marking time. This is a scoring cliche meant to signify "suspense" and "anticipation". Now, for me, bringing my awareness and past experience into the scene, Chang's approach was transparent, it threw me out of the illusion and put me in that place where my intellect was saying, that's meant to be suspense music. For someone else however, someone perhaps less attentive to form, the suspense signature might have actually worked and helped that viewer feel and experience the emotion that that combination of images and music was trying to convey. In this case, atleast for me, knowing too much or being too aware was a spoiler. But note that I said awareness was a double-edged sword. In watching Triumph of the Will, it's good to know that a lower camera height looking up at a figure will tend to aggrandize that figure and put him in a position of authority in relation to the audience viewer, a state already encouraged by the amplification of image size and position of the screen in most theaters. Considering that nearly every shot of Hitler is taken from this position, if you didn't know how the technique worked, you might come out of the film thinking Hitler is a god, as many Germans must have felt after watching the film in 1934. In cases like this, as in modern cinema (especially advertising), it's best to have your wits about you.

    So it's a tightrope walk: too much awareness and you can lose the emotion, too little and you lose your self-protection. I trust that most movies just want me to feel something that I wouldn't mind feeling in the first place (and so I go with them): laughs, tears, a fright, the vicarious satisfaction of some hard to acquire or socially forbidden desire. [Godard: "Movies are a girl and a gun." That is, sex and violence, nude women and blood.]

    And that leads me to re-state my position that scores shouldn't be so up front and people might get more emotion out of getting caught up in the fantasy rather than being too aloof.

    Of course, the Easterns would say that getting caught up in emotion at all is a false path. They think what we call reality is observer-interpreted to some extent to begin with so that movies are illusions of an illusion, unreal, and much ado about nothing. That's different from the Marxists saying that drama distracts the people from their political situation. But it's closer to what Terrence McKenna says about cinema being related to heroin since both give us the illusion that reality will conform to our wishes. But then I'm not suggesting we all stop watching movies and sit on the floor and chant Om (though for an Objectivist like you Bulldog it might not hurt

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    posted 03-11-2003 10:17 PM PT (US)     

     Bulldog
     Romulan
     

    I think we may not really disagree so much, but emotions are always consequents.

    Again, regardless of what a viewer/listener feels about what he should do when viewing/listening to a picture, it doesn't change the fact that film and music in film are what they are. Trying to pretend otherwise will not be advantageous.

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    posted 03-12-2003 08:21 AM PT (US)     
     

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