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"Bad" Film Music: Is There A Reason? (Here's 10)
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Topic: "Bad" Film Music: Is There A Reason? (Here's 10)

PAUL TONKS

Romulan

Dear All,Just up this morning is a new Column entitled "Ten Industry Developments That Haven't Made A Film Composer's Job Better". This is a piece that's been burning within me for some time. A lot of it has come from conversations with composers over the years. I've tailored the piece for the wider readership of the site, & can only hope at least a few people will take away a greater appreciation of the hardships faced by today's film composer.
http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/score/index.htmlComments and complaints welcome as always!
PAUL TONKS
posted 01-22-2003 12:02 AM PT (US) 
HadrianD

Romulan

That pic of Hans and Lisa is hilarious!Great article by the way. Had some insights that I hadn't really thought about.
When's the next one

posted 01-22-2003 01:36 AM PT (US) 
PAUL TONKS

Romulan

quote:
Originally posted by HadrianD:
That pic of Hans and Lisa is hilarious!Great article by the way. Had some insights that I hadn't really thought about.
When's the next one

Thanks Hadrian. The Column is every 2 weeks on a Wednesday. Some interviews will be following soon.
Cheers,
PAUL TONKS
posted 01-22-2003 01:45 AM PT (US) 
Marc Flake

Romulan

Thanks Paul. I was wondering why my CD-buying budget was being spent more on rereleases of old movie soundtracks rather than on new movie scores.More specifically, I was wondering why there's been such a glut of uninspiring film music lately.
posted 01-22-2003 07:26 AM PT (US) 
jonathan_little
Romulan

That Weinstein test screening feedback form is quite amusing.Happy Birthday tomorrow, David Arnold.
posted 01-22-2003 11:39 AM PT (US) 
MarkA

Romulan

To each his own, Marc. I'd much rather listen to stuff from 2002 than from 1962.
posted 01-22-2003 01:36 PM PT (US) 
PeterK

FishChip

If someone would giddy up and issue a CD release of BK's 1962 score from Mutiny on the Bounty, I bet you would change your mind, MarkA - 1962 was a fantastic year for movie music, without question!Paul, another great article.... hard to believe you summed up a good perspective in so few words. "It rocks, baby!"
posted 01-22-2003 03:21 PM PT (US) 
Richard

Romulan

Nice article. The 'Gangs of New York' feedback form certainly made me laugh.
I'll also mention that your book is in in amongst the limited collection of books on film music we have at the Newcastle Uni Music Library.

NP: Starship Troopers (Poledouris)
p.s
One of the other books is ironically titled, 'Knowing the Score'.[Message edited by Richard on 01-22-2003]
posted 01-22-2003 08:23 PM PT (US) 
Marc Flake

Romulan

Hey MarkA:You're absolutely right! To each his own.
Here's a list of movies from 1962 that I have culled from the IMDB. I either have the full score of the movie or I have a track or two (or a suite) in a compilation.300 Spartans
Days of Wine and Roses
Dr. No
Hatari
Lawrence of Arabia
Longest Day
Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
Taras BulbaIn 2002 here's the list with the same culls:
Count of Monte Christo
Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers
Star Wars: Attack of the ClonesHaven't seen the Harry Potter movie yet. I wasn't impressed enough with the first one's score to buy it, but I hear the score for the second one is better. We'll see.
posted 01-23-2003 09:28 AM PT (US) 
Wickenstein

Reman

I get the feeling Weinstein himself deserves to be on that list!NP: Heat (Elliot Goldenthal)
posted 01-23-2003 09:19 PM PT (US) 
justin boggan

Romulan

For over 5mins last night i typed a wonderful response and was quite proud of it, then when about finished, the power went out for 2 seconds and it was gone. I was pissed off and i can't remember it all so am not going to bother. Why am i typing this?
posted 01-24-2003 05:21 PM PT (US) 
rachmaninov

Romulan

Very nice article Paul.You, know, the issues you talk about, are just the issues I’m thinking about all the time.
I love film music, and I love composing music. I would really like to work as a film music composer. I have to start making up my mind about the career I want to take because I’ll be out of high school soon.
I’d love to be a film music composer, and I know I could musically do well, because I compose interesting music, and I haven’t ever taken any composition classes. I know how to mix them, and I find myself very capable for film scoring.
The thing is that I have no “links” with any body on the film music medium, so what I hoped was that if your talent and effort was enough you could stand out and succeed.
But the current status of film music doesn’t seem to be as “healthy” as it used to be before.
All the stories I’ve heard about ghost writers and the film music crisis in general, make me think twice if I really want to work under such an atmosphere. I would dedicate my life to that, so I’d hope that effort brought something transcendental for the film music industry.
I know you always have to fight against the obstacles that the system will set, in order to liberate the art (because I consider film music is artistic) from commercialization and some other bad influences that make film music, which could be so developed, shrink into the darkness.I am evaluating what I’ll do, and in which way. Therefore readings like the one you wrote, are very helpful for me.
Rach.
NP: The lion king – Hans Zimmer.
posted 01-25-2003 10:44 AM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Romulan

Rach--At a public forum in England where Bernard Herrmann was on stage answering questions, a friend of James Bernard's stood up and said that Bernard had a very tough time composing for films and asked if Herrmann had the same experience. Herrmann's somewhat rude reply was: If Bernard can't stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. In the FSM interview with Ron Goodwin, Goodwin said that he stopped composing for films because he was usually given something like 2 weeks to compose a score.I could go on and on with stories about how tough a job composing for films is. Composing music for films is like writing text for newspapers. Not only do you have to write a lot of text against a deadline, but it has to conform to the stylebook and it has to fit the column page or else the editor just starts to hack away at it. You have to have the ability to put out the text and then lose your attachment to it as it undergoes scrutiny and cuts by a ton of people.
Only a certain kind of professional is up for this job and in a way that maintains the quality level of the craft. The notes on Max Steiner's score pages tell you what it involves (i.e., 4:50 am, will have to tell the orchestrator what I mean by this notation tomorrow). And like any job in that crazy film industry, there are a ton of slobs dying to do the work for the glory of it. They're glad to be ghost writing, orchestrating, copying, or whatever. To be picked to copy a temp score to the letter on some Biker Zombie sequel is a job they would suck cock to do.
But my suggestion to you is to try this under better circumstances to see if it's something you really would like to do. Here's how. Go to the largest local college or to any kind of production house, visit with students making short video or film or with guys doing industrial shorts for whatever business firms have commissioned them and offer to score those. You'll probably get no money and have to come up with an orchestra on your own either electronic or by collecting as many players as you can talk into it into a studio somewhere. You'll probably have to pay for the recording too. But, you'll do the work, and see if it's what you're into, and you'll have a portfolio to show around to get more work.
Elmer Bernstein gave this piece of advice and I think someone should follow it. A lot of guys out there put together an audition CD that they give to agents or whoever. But EB feels that composers should meet with directors one on one to see if there's some accord before the music even gets mentioned. So, if you get to that point, you should insist on meeting with the people who are looking for composers, do something that seperates you from the crowd.
In the meantime, just keep composing no matter what the format.
Produce Quantity! [Not without quality of course.]
A friend of mine had a script and he got it onto the desk of someone who was financing films. The guy said to him: I like the script but it's not the kind of film I want to do, do you have anything else? And the guy's reply was: No, this was the only script I thought was good enough to peddle. And the other's guy reply to that was: If you are a writer, you should have 20 scripts to show me besides this one.
That said, I don't mean any of this to be discouraging. The film industry is putting out product every day--it needs a lot of music and good music even if it puts up a number of blocks to getting that music. There is a place for someone who can do this work and do it well. You have to try or else the hacks like Horner get all the jobs and set the declining standards.
But at this point it's all talk. Go out and actually score a film of some kind and see from that how you feel about the whole process. Does it give you energy and inspire you to your best work, or do you hate the discipline and need to do something else? To talk about problems in the industry or issues like commercialization and to say because of them you're not sure you want to dive into it is talking yourself out of it before you start. And it's all theory. Go hands on with scoring a film and then decide if it's for you or not. Chances are it isn't simply because you're already wavering. Auguste Renoir said that he wanted to paint so badly he'd hold his piss in to do it. If you don't feel the same, you should leave the room. Otherwise, you'll do a Horner and become a hack.
[Message edited by Lou Goldberg on 01-27-2003]
posted 01-27-2003 02:37 AM PT (US) 
PAUL TONKS

Romulan

Gracious! There's actually some informative, reasoned & well articulated conversation taking place here as a result of something I've written!And I thank you all for it.
Maybe I should write that Top Ten Developments That Haven't Made A Freelance Writer's Job Any Better article...

PAUL TONKS
posted 01-27-2003 07:11 AM PT (US) 
rachmaninov

Romulan

Thank you very much for such a complete response and advice Lou!I really appreciate how you give me details and recommendations.
I’d like to write more, but I’m on a hurry right now, however I will expand my message tomorrow, and I’ll e-mail you, along with one special composition particularly composed for the occasion.
Paul, you did stimulate not only an informative, but helpful conversation. Thanks. I really feel a sense of community on this site.
Rach
posted 01-27-2003 09:05 PM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Romulan

Rach--Everyone who works on a film contributes their talents to the whole and drops some of their personal expression to do it.
The Director of Photography, the matte painter, the composer, could all become first-class photographers, portrait painters, and concert musicians if they wanted to but they choose to forego that personal expression to contribute their ability to the good of a film.
As I said before, work like this is like newswriting. A news article is meant to be clear and to the point, just the facts without editorializing or personal touches. It's ephemeral--it often goes un-read, the author's by-line un-noticed if the article is read, and it becomes old news the very next day. To do this kind of writing means accepting those conditions and constraints and it often requires you to set your ego aside.
Producers would like film music to operate along similar lines. The problem or the difference between news text and music composition is that music suffers in quality if you streamline and homogenize it and remove its personal and distinguishing characteristics. That is why the quality of film music is less today than it once was.
Yet this is what producers seem to want, streamlining and Sonic Wallpaper, and so those going to take on this career have to take that into consideration.
Actually, though, there is still great film music being produced and there are still great opportunities for future film music to be great. Doing this work often inspires composers to reach peaks they wouldn't if they were working freely on their own (note that the concert works of most film composers are weaker than their film work). And so there are rewards to doing this work if you have the disposition for it.
But not only do you have to have the ability and the guts to do it, at this point for you Rach, you also have to get a foot in the door and get your feet wet.
Many people have had to pay their dues and do unglamourous scut work for years before they could get to a higher position. Think Johnny Williams, Henry Mancini doing library cues, Bernstein doing Robot Monster, and a number of great composers orchestrating for lesser men than themselves. But by doing this work with drive and good cheer they showed that they were trustworthy professionals.
[John Frankenheimer: "An amateur doesn't do what he doesn't feel like, but a professional gets up and does it even when he doesn't want to."]
Are you prepared to do the same?
Basically, this is like soldiering: they tear you down, make you a grunt taking orders, then build you up again to where you can possibly commit personal acts of individual heroism. You have to avoid being killed, of course, by your own errors or being in the wrong place at the wrong time and it also helps to be gung-ho, to show your bosses you want to get in the thick of things because you think the whole thing is fun.
And if all this isn't for you, the door under the exit sign is open......
And the work might not be for you. I write a lot but I can't do it as a professional because I get too attached to my output. I'm like, "If you change so much as a comma,, I'm gonna push you from a rooftop." Whenever I see writing of mine that has been played with by someone else, it isn't mine anymore, even if the editing has actually improved it for the public. I can't look at it, don't care about it, and don't want my name near it. So I can't do this kind of work. But perhaps you can. At least, if you're seriously interested, you should find out as I found out (in my case, by actually writing for a newspaper).
If you can't find a film to score for someone/anyone, take a camcorder out and shoot something, even traffic. Then come home and score that. If your music can improve shots of traffic then you're half way there.
Second, think chamber groups. Bernstein scored House for 4 instruments: piano, cello, harp, and flute. The range and depth he got out of that combo was amazing. Chamber groups are easier to get together and record with than full orchestras and the chances you can have the works performed and heard by others is greater.
[Message edited by Lou Goldberg on 01-28-2003]
posted 01-27-2003 10:46 PM PT (US) 
HadrianD

Romulan

quote:
Originally posted by Lou Goldberg:
To be picked to copy a temp score to the letter on some Biker Zombie sequel is a job they would suck cock to do.
[Message edited by Lou Goldberg on 01-27-2003]
posted 01-28-2003 01:28 AM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Romulan

Hadrian--You react as if you've never heard of a casting couch before. It's not that provocative, nor is it just for starlets: we all have to parade in our G-Strings so to speak at whatever our jobs may be. That's why, since we're all whores, you might as well work in a brothel you like.
posted 01-28-2003 01:42 AM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Romulan

Rach--I've been thinking about your situation and I propose this as an assignment.Take a film that uses little or no music, a film like say The Asphalt Jungle, Lifeboat, or preferably The Birds which has no orchestral scoring in it whatsoever. Then think as if you are already a big time film composer and Alfred Hitchcock has given you his latest film to score.
Go through the film, decide where it needs music and how much, make precise timings for cue lengths and compose the music for the film. Then perform and record it and dub the music onto the soundtrack of the film.
You'll need a copy that has no macrovision (I can provide one) and a mixing board of somekind so you can dub the picture, original sound, and your cues onto a single VHS tape, but when you are finished, you'll have done your first film score and will have a unique thing to show people for your portfolio.
You should also try to put some constraints on yourself like doing the whole thing in 5 weeks time (knowing you are a student and can only work say an hour on this a day, work on it for an amount of time that would approximate 5 weeks, only don't take months because that'll give your mind time to do a better job than if you were forced to compose in a hurry).
This won't give you an idea of what it's like to work on a real production because you won't have producers and directors hovering over you, but it will give you an idea of what the actual act of composing for a film is like. And it beats scoring scenes of traffic.
posted 01-28-2003 09:39 PM PT (US) 
rachmaninov

Romulan

Lou – Thanks again for all your comments. I agree with you on many things and some things you said got me to think about it over and over.The film making industry is very active, it has a lot of movement, and it wants production. Scoring for a film, must be surely tough, specially at the beginning, when you have to [b] put your feet in the door and get your feet wet [b] because no body really knows you, and they think that they don’t necessarily need you, and that many composers shall arrive, and they’ll take what the industry gives them. Then, you’ll have to convince them that you are necessary for them. That after listening to your music, they won’t remain easy if they don’t have something scored by you.
What you said about the “unglamorous work” is true. It is not just about liking music and composition. It is accepting a whole group of things that might not even be “ethical” for you, but after keeping pushing and pushing and trying hard you might get to a better point. However, your passion for composing for a film must be huge in order to live under such a pressure and such an atmosphere. I also liked that cue you wrote “An amateur doesn't do what he doesn't feel like, but a professional gets up and does it even when he doesn't want to."
Am I prepared to do the same?
(I hope my English is understandable *It’s not my mother tongue*)
I really love composing music, it’s something that makes me feel very “alive”, it fulfills me, I’d fight against anything, I’d get up as many times as necessary, even when I wouldn’t want to, in order to keep composing. It makes me very happy, and it gives sense to my life.
I’ve been able to compose for a scene. Actually almost always, I get inspired by a scene, a visual memory for instance, but a memory that I feel besides seeing. Every time I sit down to see the sunset, a melody shows up. Or if I have a dream, there is always music in the background.
I remember once I was playing the piano, I was trying to find a “fresh” theme, but I was not being very creative. Suddenly I saw a little funny spider climbing up the wall. A melody came up immediately, then I just kept playing the piano, and she kept climbing up, with a certain rhythm. Apparently, she was enjoying the melody, I became more connected to the spider I felt the connection between she and me, and I understood how we were both trying to find something in the universe, and during the search we found each other. When I listened to the music I was playing I went crazy for it, and I was amazed by the touching music that had come from that connection between the spider and me.
I realized I wanted to compose music for a scene, a sequence, for a film, plus my deep affection to film music, I was almost convinced that I wanted to compose for films and television for the rest of my life.
But in the last year, I’ve being studying different things, and I realized that some subjects fulfill me as much as composing does. It’s just that it’s on a different manner.
Philosophy and Geography study so many aspects of the human civilization, including music, that for some moments I thought that I would rather to see the world on a wider way, to see a whole.I knew I had to come to a decision, and I was under a big dilemma.
After reading Lou’s comments and pieces of advice, I’ve come to a decision that may vary a little bit, depending on the course of the future. It’s a decision that might not sound down to earth probably, but I’m up to give everything in order to achieve my goal:I’ve realized that the two main subjects I’d like to study and dedicate my life to, are very related with something: Trying to find an answer to the essential questions, and trying to share the contemplation and the wonderful life I feel. What I feel, I can’t describe with words, so I’ll make an analogy: When I start to study a different language to my mother tongue (English for instance), I find that there are a lot of things that I can’t say, although I have the mental concepts of them. The way to be able to say what I think is practicing the language a lot, study its grammar and language structure, and compare it with what I know.
In the same way, in order to describe this contemplation, that truly gives sense to my life, and I want to understand better, and share it, I need to practice the language of philosophy, to know the history of the human being, and everything related to its culture, all the details and the different forms of artistic expression. And I’ll need to be able to describe things that are related to feelings, so they are not so rational. Therefore, film scoring would awesomely help me to do so.
Isn’t it the perfect combination? Studying human geography (which studies the whole human culture) and film scoring (which would give me the chance to communicate feelings trough music) is a great way to satisfy my inquietudes and desires.
The next step is working on that, but I think one of the subjects would help to the other, in case help is needed.
Socrates, Platoon, Voltaire, Humboldt and all those philosophers and geographers have given me great intellectual and philosophical experiences.
Herrmann, Alfred Newman, T Newman, Waxman, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Korsakov, Deleure, Doyle, Williams, Goldsmith, R. Edelman, JNH, and so many other great composers, have given me great sentimental experiences.
I believe the combination is great.
What do you think Lou?
Rach (Oh, by the way, today I composed the piece I promised; I hope to be able to record it tomorrow. I have so many things to do…)
posted 01-28-2003 10:17 PM PT (US) 
rachmaninov

Romulan

Oh, you posted while I was writing!Thanks very much for that advice, it sounds great!
Will surely be a very nice experience to score The birds. I’ll start getting to work on that, and I’ll let you know how the thing is going. I have some mixing tools, but I would really appreciate that copy with out Macro Vision.
Thanks for everything.
Rach.
posted 01-28-2003 10:23 PM PT (US) 
Lou Goldberg

Romulan

Well, it's interesting to have an effect on somebody around here.I, too, believe in the importance of ideas and education, in living the "examined life."
Watching movies is fine, but there is a whole world of philosophy, anthropology, psychology, geography, science, and the humanities to become acquainted with too. And hopefully, all these things feed on each other, your becoming cultured adding to the quality of your output.
There is no reason why having a love or doing a profession should keep you from all the things that spell out a well-rounded life. Although some professions will take up a lot of time and energy and composing sounds like one of those.
A lot of people talk about doing the work but are dreamy about it. I was simply spelling out the obvious elements of the job if you are serious about doing it.
Send me an address and I'll get on a VHS of The Birds for you. Do you live in the US and have an NTSC deck or do you have a PAL or SECAM deck? I won't be able to help you much on those.
Good luck.
PS--That's the first time I've heard of a spider inspiring a work of piano music although I'm sure there have to be others. It makes me more curious to know what a bunch of frenzied birds might inspire in you.
posted 01-29-2003 02:44 AM PT (US) 
Ken S

Romulan

quote:
Originally posted by rachmaninov:
I remember once I was playing the piano, I was trying to find a “fresh” theme, but I was not being very creative. Suddenly I saw a little funny spider climbing up the wall. A melody came up immediately, then I just kept playing the piano, and she kept climbing up, with a certain rhythm. Apparently, she was enjoying the melody, I became more connected to the spider I felt the connection between she and me, and I understood how we were both trying to find something in the universe, and during the search we found each other. When I listened to the music I was playing I went crazy for it, and I was amazed by the touching music that had come from that connection between the spider and me.This truly shows how important creatures spiders are on our planet

Rach, I've never heard more beautiful story of composing music. I'd really like to hear this piece of music - I'm certain it does possess the HEART which I'm always longing for in music (whether for a film or not).
KENposted 01-31-2003 08:44 AM PT (US) 
Ken S

Romulan

Paul Tonks - that article of yours was excellent.
Just one thing, though - while it's true that Disney's SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARFS original album wasn't issued AS an "original soundtrack", it still is THE VERY FIRST original soundtrack recording ever released, since the album used the authentic song recordings from the movie's soundtrack. In Britain, it was issued on three-record set by His Master's Voice, under the words "Exclusive Recordings from the Actual Sound Film".
...Just in case you didn't know.
KENposted 01-31-2003 08:54 AM PT (US) Old Infopop Software by UBB
