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Author	Topic: NEMESIS!

sean Standard Userer	This film is awesome; my favourite of the Next Generation films. The others reminded me of the the series, just on the big screen. To me, they never really seemed that cinematic - of course, they have their moments - just more of a TV on the big screen feel. Stuart Baird did an excellent job wtih Nemesis - lol probably the only Stuart Baird I like. Jeff Bond talked about a whole part of the score that was mainly heroic and absent from the album. Its there, but the missing music is not a must have. To me, the album is just fine; the missing cues dont make up that much time. Mainly, they resemble the heroic Enterprise music from The Motion Picture. All the action music on the album is the main action music in the film, there are no LARGE action pieces missing. Now, "The Scorpion" cue, to me, is the most effective on the album and in the film, it works perfectly. Also, really neat and prominent is a cool motif as Jordy searches on the sensor screen for the cloaked Remun battlecruiser: "The Mirror" 0:44 to 1:06. NP: Satr Trek Nemesis - Jelly Goldsmith ***/*** [Message edited by sean on 12-11-2002] [Message edited by sean on 12-11-2002]
posted 12-11-2002 08:20 PM PT (US)

JeffBond Standard Userer	There are at least four LARGE pieces of action music missing: the cue when Picard sounds battle stations, the first engagement between Shinzon's ship and the Enterprise, and the battle between the Romulan vessels and Shinzon's ship. These aren't exactly minor cues--in fact, they establish the style of the battle music. There are other, later cues as well.
posted 12-12-2002 10:42 AM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	I thought they were pretty minor, but I'll to check it out again next time I see it. The CD is a good representation of the score, though.
posted 12-12-2002 03:43 PM PT (US)

Jeron Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by sean: NP: Satr Trek Nemesis - Jelly Goldsmith ***/*** Jelly? What flavor?
posted 12-13-2002 05:48 PM PT (US)

Kevin Standard Userer	Just got back from seeing Nemesis. All I can say is: Not as good as Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn But not as bad as Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.
posted 12-13-2002 06:04 PM PT (US)

sean Standard Userer	Green, Jeron, green!
posted 12-13-2002 06:56 PM PT (US)

SPQR Standard Userer	quote: There are at least four LARGE pieces of action music missing: the cue when Picard sounds battle stations, the first engagement between Shinzon's ship and the Enterprise, and the battle between the Romulan vessels and Shinzon's ship. These aren't exactly minor cues--in fact, they establish the style of the battle music. There are other, later cues as well. Needless to say, they all come to not. This is quite possibly the worst Goldsmith score I've ever heard accompanying a film in my 25 year association with the fellow's music. It's overblown and uninvolved; nothing more than sonic wallpaper for a truly incompetent piece of filmmaking. This is the Goldsmith of your worst nightmares; when Deep Rising and US Marshals represent the pinnacle of his talent.
posted 12-13-2002 08:55 PM PT (US)

jburrows Standard Userer	The score for this installment of Star Trek really was the icing on the cake. After seeing this film I really felt that George Lucas might want to take some notes when it comes to writing dialogue for Star Wars. Logan did an excellent job of writing a script for a Trek movie. Character dialoque and character development is so important to a franchise. This was something that disappointed me with the Star Wars prequels. I guess there's time to make amends with yet another Star Wars film on the way, yet hats off to Berman for introducing us Star Trek fans to some new "blood" in the family with the addition of Baird and Logan to the list of successful Star Trek writers and directors. NP: ST Nemesis(at least til Wednesday 12/18)
posted 12-13-2002 09:25 PM PT (US)

Crono/Kyp Standard Userer	Did anyone see Bryan Singer's (Director of Apt Pupil and Usual Suspects) 2 sec (48 frame) cameo? --Bri, who thought the movie was a fun ride.
posted 12-13-2002 09:34 PM PT (US)

jburrows Standard Userer	In response to the negative reply about Nemesis being quite possibly the worst Goldsmith score, you'd have to be deaf and stupid to say such a thing. I can't get over the fact that you people that only absorb 20th century atonal music (which isn't all that bad) have to act like you are fans of film music. You are not fans but rather dissonant freaks. Goldsmith wrote a score that goes above and beyond the call of duty. It was very fitting to the story of Nemesis as well as to the aging Star Trek franchise. Afterall this is Goldsmith's 5th trek film, the guy is unbelieveable how it can still make it original from start to finish. Goldsmith knows the art of timing, musical emphasis on characters, and music/story balance like no other composer. I could go on and on, but to bring up Deep Rising and U.S.Marshalls as examples of great Goldsmith scores far superior to Nemesis is just wrong. Way to go Jerry, hard to believe that you are going on you 326th score these days! Bravo!
posted 12-13-2002 09:37 PM PT (US)

SPQR Standard Userer	Actually, I don't sight Deep Rising or US Marshalls as preferred examples of the composer's unquestioned talent; quite the contrary, Nemesis is the nadir of Goldsmith's decade long struggle to avoid irrelevancy in an era when everything he brought to bare as singular artist and dramaticist is no longer wanted or desired. In order to stay in the game, he has had to literally toss out his individuality in order to satisfy producers and directors infatuated with the derivative, mediocre strains of the Newton Howards, Zimmers, Silvestri's and Elfmans. I just hate to see great talent wasted that's all. And Goldsmith WAS the greatest. [Message edited by SPQR on 12-13-2002]
posted 12-13-2002 10:45 PM PT (US)

HadrianD Standard Userer	It started out great! That passage in the beginning was an extremely thematic way to introduce the audience to the movie. Is that on the album? Anyways,... My trekkie friend said that it wasn't at all like a ST:TNG thing. It was missing the whole team spirit and something else. For me, as a casual fan, it was a nice diversion. I enjoyed it, though it wasn't as special as I thought it would be. I didn't like the ending because the producers and the writer were such cowards. It could have been a wholly different movie if they had just ended at that penultimate scene with the remaning crew toasting the passing of a dear member. It could have ended up being a poignant film to look back and say, that was something... The music was good. I prefer this over Jerry's previous contribution to Baird's past films. Though it could have been fine without that whole string passage underscoring Data's running and flying (a la Superman) to the Scimitar. I'd buy the complete score if it's available somewhere. But until then, I'd WinMXed the thing or get it USED. MY 2cents
posted 12-13-2002 11:20 PM PT (US)

HadrianD Standard Userer	Oh and my favorite Next Gen film is First Contact, which is when everything took a darker and more actiony approach. Having a Woman as a villian was a very nice touch. I haven't seen other Trek film done it.
posted 12-13-2002 11:22 PM PT (US)

James Standard Userer	I still love the score, but the film is not the best. I think it's just a small step up from Star Trek 5, which is my least favorite of the series (not including TMP, which I consider to be more of an anomaly than anything else). It didn't help that the sound in the theatre was somehow screwed up. There must have been a speaker out because the background sound (music and sound effects) was ten times louder than the dialogue. Granted, I think it's probably better in this case that you don't hear the dialogue, as much of it is painful. It's difficult for me to say this, but I would have preferred something written by Berman and Bragga to this. Whoever said it was lacking in team spirit was correct. This movie is all about Picard and Data... everyone else is peripheral and ultimately, useless. Special effects were also sub-par, but I guess I can't blame them for that since they had to make a bigger movie than Insurrection on a smaller budget. This movie also seems to follow the Phantom Menace school of thought where a force field repels weaponry but offers no protection whatsoever if someone just decides to fly their ship through it. I have to hand it to John Logan for managing to break the even/odd curse. I just wish they had been able to do it by making a good odd-numbered film. Still, great score. The prevalance of the Enterprise theme was a definite plus, and there is some great music missing from the CD (though I like the CD anyway). Kirk
posted 12-14-2002 09:34 AM PT (US)

Mark Olivarez Standard Userer	Nemesis isn't as bad as some say nor is it as great as some would have you believe. My main complaint is the damn film was out of focus. I know it wasn't the theatre cause it's a brand new one that just opened and the previews were in focus. There were some nice passages of TMP theme played but most of the score was drowned out by the sound effects to really notice. While it was a big improvement over Insurrection I wouldn't say it's the best and judging by the small amount of screens it's playing on(at least in this area the theatres have it only showing on 4 screens), the sparse crowds(there was hardly anyone in the theatre) and poor reviews we may have seen the final voyage of the Enterprise and her crew.
posted 12-14-2002 03:58 PM PT (US)

Kevin Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Mark Olivarez: My main complaint is the damn film was out of focus. Thank You!!! I thought my eyes were going bad. So it wasn't just our theater. quote: ... we may have seen the final voyage of the Enterprise and her crew. That's the sentiment going around all right. Paramount better take a hard look at who's ruining their money franchise before it sinks too far. Kevin
posted 12-14-2002 05:24 PM PT (US)

HadrianD Standard Userer	There were hecka people waiting inline to go see the movie... There were even some who even tried to applaude...
posted 12-14-2002 05:40 PM PT (US)

Mark Olivarez Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by HadrianD: There were hecka people waiting inline to go see the movie... There were even some who even tried to applaude... When the crew turned around to see only Picard standing there after the explosion two cell phone went off.
posted 12-14-2002 08:40 PM PT (US)

Quill Standard Userer	Better late than never for chiming in... 1. Goldsmith score is not his best work for the series, but a vast improvement over Insurrection. 2. The film was quite a bit of fun...kudos to John Logas for actually writing decent dialogue. The humor (which for me was always the stumbling block of the Next Generation films) was vastly improved. 3. While I am an avid fan of the series, but not creepy like many, I can say with confidence that this was the best Next Gen film. I enjoy First Contact, but this one engaged me more. 4. Our theatre was packed...the late show when we got out had a line snaking out of the theatre and the audience seemed to enjoy it. But I suppose for those who will eternally hiss and moan at anything Berman touches...well, did we expect a different response. We all so easily program ourselves. I can admit that some of the filming and editing were rather pedestrian at times, but overall I was more than satisfied. The acting was also better than normal. I don't understand the criticism of the special effects, aside from a few shots this was on par with anything out there today...save Star Wars. Digital Domain did far better work than was turned in by whatever company handled Insurrection. Oh well...going to see it again tomorrow with a fried. Simple truth...I'm looking forward to it.
posted 12-14-2002 09:02 PM PT (US)

JJH Standard Userer	fairly enjoyable movie, though we basically saw it already with Trek II. They actually had a good space battle for once. theater I saw it at was PACKED. this for an 11 am showing, with more people waiting in line when we got out. Everyone seemed to like it.
posted 12-14-2002 09:38 PM PT (US)

Mark Olivarez Standard Userer	Box office results: $18.75 million in 2nd place for the opening weekend. [Message edited by Mark Olivarez on 12-15-2002]
posted 12-15-2002 11:18 AM PT (US)

Kevin Standard Userer	And second place to Maid in Manhattan? Oh boy. Quotes from Box Office Guru... quote: Debuting close behind in the runnerup spot was Paramount's sci-fi actioner Star Trek: Nemesis which grossed an estimated $18.8M giving it the worst performance for the long-running franchise in recent memory... Nemesis launched in 2,711 theaters and grossed a weaker-than-expected $6,916 per ship. The studio had hoped that a four-year gap since the last installment and the promotion that it was the final voyage for this crew would stir some excitement among loyal Trekkers.... ...Paramount reported that the Nemesis audience was 64% male and predominantly over 25... Plus Trek movies traditionally attract a large share of their audience on opening weekend meaning hefty declines in future weeks seem likely. "64% male and predominantly over 25?" Sounds like the typical Trek fan to me!! They all came out of their parents' basements for the film. Kevin [Message edited by Kevin on 12-15-2002]
posted 12-15-2002 04:54 PM PT (US)

dgoldwas Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by James: Special effects were also sub-par, but I guess I can't blame them for that since they had to make a bigger movie than Insurrection on a smaller budget. Kirk, what are you smoking!? The visual effects in this film are some of the best yet, and I thought Digital Domain did a stand-out job. And the budget for NEMESIS was $70 million, compared to INSURRECTION's $58 million. Come on - do a little research first!! Dan
posted 12-15-2002 05:41 PM PT (US)

SPQR Standard Userer	quote: And the budget for NEMESIS was $70 million, compared to INSURRECTION's $58 million. Come on - do a little research first!! So do me a favor and find out what toilet they flushed it down before it reached the production staff, because I'd swear I'd saw those force-perspective backdrops used in a Buster Crabbe serial. [Message edited by SPQR on 12-15-2002]
posted 12-15-2002 07:04 PM PT (US)

James Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by dgoldwas: And the budget for NEMESIS was $70 million, compared to INSURRECTION's $58 million. Come on - do a little research first!! My mistake - it just seemed that a few reviews I had read mentioned how Nemesis didn't have as much money to work with as the past few Trek movies did. I guess I'll have to make sure in the future that the critics I take information from have done their research first. Nevertheless, I stand by what I said about the special effects, and the fact that they had a larger budget after all only makes it worse. I just thought the whole thing looked like a big cartoon, especially when the weapon kicked into gear at the end. And they went way overboard on the digital grading on Kolarus III. I know it was supposed to make the place look hotter, dryer, and more desolate, but instead it looked like a commerical for a soft drink. That's the problem... the whole movie felt cheap, like a B-movie, except the disturbing fact that they really did have a big budget prevents me from laughing at it. Kirk
posted 12-15-2002 08:23 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	quote: Originally posted by dgoldwas: And the budget for NEMESIS was $70 million, compared to INSURRECTION's $58 million. Come on - do a little research first!! The entire budget may have been, but this doesn't necessarily mean the special effects budget goes up by the same percentage. Less money can be spent on special effects for a film that costs twice as much as a similar film. The difference could be because of a 1000 different things... uhh... why am I even posting this? Should be obvious. But anyway, in my limited viewership of Trek crap, this one looked pretty cheap.... like what Kirk says.
posted 12-15-2002 08:35 PM PT (US)

miss tonya Standard Userer	I thought the film was spectacular!!!!! Goldsmith's score was terrific!!! His first statement in the film of the original ST theme was so beautiful... I can't understand why it was left off the CD. I have to say this is now my favorite trek film and my second favorite trek score. Those who say this film is bad obviously were in a theatre showing They or some other film. Oh, and where I saw the film, the print was crystal clear!
posted 12-15-2002 09:23 PM PT (US)

HAL 2000 Standard Userer	I liked Nemesis in spite of itself. As far as Star Trek goes there was nothing really to get insensed or outraged over regarding the story. I mean, none of these movies, the venerable Wrath of Khan included, has ever really plumbed truly provacative depths. For all it's plodding nature and TV episode dirivations, ST:TMP remains the most imaginative and cerebral Trek feature made. I really don't understand all the hostility towards John Logan's script since, for better or for worse, it is essentially nothing but Star Trek. The main flaw, and it is a major one, for me was the completely unimaginative and lifeless direction of Stuart Baird. This story had enough going for it that some vision and flair could have made it a winner. Baird was a poor choice of director. I understand he wanted to make a darker, grittier Trek but that didn't mean that he had to turn the dimmer switch down to 2 on every shot in the movie. Lesson to film makers... "dark" is not s style. A tone? maybe. I understand that the Remans like it dark but it was almost as dreary on the Enterprise. Baird's direction was just loveless. As for production value I think this was the handsomest of the TNG movies. They just photographed everything badly. The effects? No complaints here. But the staging hurt the visuals. The green murky nebula look of everything just didn't showcase Digital Domain's efforts. There was no reaason why this couldn't have been a brighter, clearer open space dogfight. All I remember now are shapes and shadows. Tom Hardy was fine as Shinzon. I enjoyed the interchanges between he and Picard. And I'm glad they actually shared the same space in this movie unlike TWOK where Kirk and Khan NEVER stand face to face in the whole movie except to see each other on thier view screens. But overall this movie looks much more expensive that the cheesy TWOK. Goldsmith's score was terrific but mixed way too low in the soundtrack. I loved the nostalgic hits from the first Trek score and his subtle underscore was very effective and actually said something rather than being droning wallpaper. The movie explains clearly why there is such an abundance of low, brooding material on the CD. But the bigger parts of the score were nearly inaudible during the battle sequences. If there was a piece that I would have traded some of the mood cues for it would be the music during the battle between Shinzon'z ship and the two Warbirds. There was a cool undulating motif in that cue that I would love to really hear. On the other hand, this movie was not well spotted. There were at least a couple of scenes which desperately needed music which were left silent.One, when they land thier ATV on the shuttle and then the desert aliens watch the ship lift up into the sky. Nothing but dead air. And I couldn't believe they left the demise of the Reman Viceroy unscored. As he falls down the shaft, again dead air. It just didn't work. Nemesis is a fine score and is Goldmisth's best TNG score but not even in the same solar system as his 1979 masterpiece. Today Nemesis appears to have been whipped by J-lo. Ouch! this is probably the worst possible outcome for this movie and the whole Trek franchise since this, along with dropping interest in Enterprise, sends a clear message to Berman and Paramount that people just aren't interested anymore. Whether the blame is Berman style homogeny or over saturation this is probably the last new Trek movie and series we'll see for quite a while. Berman and Baird will feel this sting for a long time. Goldsmith, on the other hand has already moved on to Timeline. A music savy director like Donner making a movie about deliriously cruel medieval knights. Goldsmith can't miss. I can't wait to hear it.
posted 12-16-2002 08:00 AM PT (US)

dgoldwas Standard Userer	Oh yeah - HAL 2000's post has SPOILERS. Dan
posted 12-16-2002 08:29 AM PT (US)

HAL 2000 Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by dgoldwas: Oh yeah - HAL 2000's post has SPOILERS. Dan Oh come on!!
posted 12-16-2002 08:41 AM PT (US)

JeffBond Standard Userer	From what I understand Nemesis had less money to play with than Insurrection despite the higher budget; the hidden cost here is the director and actor's fees. I thought the visual effects were quite good, but the movie overall is an embarrassment--I actually thought some of SHATNER's action directing in Trek V was better than Baird's in Nemesis. Seriously, forty-five percent of the movie was boring talk; the whole thing was just lifeless. It felt like they spent those nine months of postproduction trying to find a way to cut around Marina Sirtis' humiliating performance (does she have to be crying in EVERY scene?). I thought Logan's script had at least some promise, but the execution just killed it.
posted 12-16-2002 09:38 AM PT (US)

TV's Frank Standard Userer	It was overly sluggish at times. I think part of that is the script's problem. It's a lot of buildup, with just that dune buggy chase for action, for the first half of the film, That's not plotted very well, it's like part one of a tele-film. I still enjoyed the film a lot and really liked Hardy's and Stewart's scenes together. Some of the action scenes were clumsy, mainly the hand-to-hand scenes, but the space battle was great as were the phaser fights.
posted 12-16-2002 09:56 AM PT (US)

HAL 2000 Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by JeffBond: I thought Logan's script had at least some promise, but the execution just killed it. Ditto! For example. I was really looking forward to the prologue as written in Logan's draft where the Romulan Senate sends Shinzon off to Remus. That would have started the movie with grandeur and intrigue (not to mention given Goldsmith a heck of an opening cue to write) but guess who excised that sequence? Stuart Baird.
posted 12-16-2002 11:17 AM PT (US)

JeffBond Standard Userer	I don't miss the Romulan senate scene after seeing the performances of the actors playing Romulans--they stank on ice! Dina Meyer was good, but under-used and under-written. The Romulan Senate was just such a sad little set. They clearly saved their production money on sets and live action shooting and put most of it into the effects.
posted 12-16-2002 12:34 PM PT (US)

Quill Standard Userer	Having seen it again, I will stand by my only criticism (which many have echoed) was the bland directing in parts. Too many of shots were framed for what looks like extended playtime on UPN. I still think the script was by far the best of the TNG features thus far. The fact that Maid in Manhatten scored more money only signifies that more Americans will prefer to watch a recycled romantic comedy than recycled Star Trek...which wasn't all that recycled. All in all, even with the directing, if it had been edited better it could have been great. As it stands, an enjoyable couple of hours.
posted 12-16-2002 12:58 PM PT (US)

Bradley Standard Userer	I enjoyed the movie and would go see it again. I thought it was one of the better ones in the series. The score worked well even though is may not be one of Goldsmith's best for the series (I'm still partial to Star Trek the movie). If this was the last movie for this crew (or any other), I will miss the series. Even though I am not a avid fan, I do find the movies fun to watch for the most part (Wrath of Khan is my favorite). BTW, IMHO, the best TNG movie is The Best of Both Worlds part 1 and 2. Too bad it wasn't made for the BIG screen.
posted 12-16-2002 01:34 PM PT (US)

HAL 2000 Standard Userer	This poor movie is taking a real critical beating... maybe more than it deserves considering a lot of other pap that gets made and which goes on to make a lot of money these days. I did enjoy it. But it is regrettable that a more imaginative director didn't get thier hands on it. In all fairness, I enjoyed Nemesis a whole lot more than the atrocious Die Another Day. Nemesis may have been plain in comparison but it wasn't anywhere near as offensively stupid.
posted 12-16-2002 01:40 PM PT (US)

Jeron Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by HAL 2000: Nemesis may have been plain in comparison but it wasn't anywhere near as offensively stupid. Just wait until "The Core" hits the theaters...
posted 12-16-2002 02:21 PM PT (US)

Kevin Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Jeron: Just wait until "The Core" hits the theaters... Hee hee. I saw this trailer in the theater, and my little scientific-type mind whirled around in gleeful apprehension of seeing just how wrong scientifically this film will be. [Message edited by Kevin on 12-16-2002]
posted 12-16-2002 02:29 PM PT (US)

jburrows Standard Userer	For those of you that think Star Trek Nemesis is the end for the franchise, you are gravely mistaken. Star Trek has always had the reputation for being a series on the brink, it's always taken a beating from critics. Look at St:V as proof, if ever there was a time to make an exit, it would have been then and there, however here we are in 2002 with yet another trek movie. I feel however that now is the time for the Next Generation crew to come up with a real finish in the next 3 years. Let's get Nicholas Meyer back and give the crew a dose of some real Star Trek exposure and fame. Paramount needs to do whatever it takes to get Meyer back to direct, Patrick Stewart to produce (since he is the driving force now), and get a new face to compose the score! In the mean time we have to go and see the movie again, pull out our wallets and once again donate to the Star Trek fund. We will see Nemesis generate enough profit in the coming months from returning viewers and overseas sales. Let's all do our best to see that the crew return to the bridge one "real" last time.
posted 12-16-2002 02:34 PM PT (US)

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