Yes he wasn't complaining about the originality, but... I never like someone/something because he/she/it resembles of SOMETHING ELSE (although it can be a little bonus sometimes). That's why Timmer's post wasn't exactly what I wanted to agree upon - it seemed like a slap on all Master movie composers' faces.

EH? I didn't consider it a slap in any of their faces Ken, please don't assume that I have anything but the utmost respect for these composers music which I have known and loved for 3 decades now (and into a 4th ), each one of the composers I mentioned has spoken about 'who' has influenced them many times in print, the most recent (that I've read) being James Newton Howard mentioning how Vaughan Williams'ish his score to Unbreakable is!

NP : Robin & Marian - John Barry...heh Mom Joan, you got this Silva release yet?...it's gorgeous and knocks spots off the old 'boot', spot on pace and superb recording!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timmer:
Marian, Gae, in your 'Timmer said' posts please note these were Ken's words, not mine!....credit where credits due

---

Hey, give me credit. I wrote it. You guys are stealing my posts!

About men vs. women issue. I think there is a relation with the lyrics argument. The lyrics argument puzzled me. I couldn't figure it out why lyrics are important to people. Well, here's a hypothesis for women. It's scientifically proven that women are more verbally oriented and therefore have more social skills. It's also proven that men are better in mathematics and spatial abilities. Abstract thinking so to speak. Just look at computer scientists: still very few females. So I agree with Gae that men are more imaginative and creative and therefore tend to daydream more.

Women's verbal orientation would explain why they feel lyrics are important: it's verbal and it involves human voices. It makes it more personal. Women like language and therefore also interacting with people. They like to chit chat for hours, while men like to work on their hobbies not always interacting with other persons. An important thing of film music is that you have to imagine and build your own world with the music. An abstract process. Definitely a man's thing.

It all fits with me. I'm a computer scientist, have a talent in abstract thinking like mathematics and don't think personal interactions is the most important thing

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
The first time I heard they lyrics argument it came from a male computer scientist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
How do you define "classical music"?

---

How do YOU define it, Marian ?
I'd really like to know.

KEN

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gae:
Ken, You must be listening to the wrong type of classical music as to me, my favourite classical music is pure EMOTION. For example "The Planets" (Holst) has to be one of the most EMOTIONALLY/DESCRIPTIVE pieces on a par with Film Music. For pure EMOTION how about Delius' "A Walk to the Paradise Garden"? I tell you where that piece of music takes me...to the very EMOTIONAL center of my Spirituality. How about "The Lark Ascending"(V. Williams) or "Fingal's Cave"(Mendehlsson) or "Clair De Lun (Debussy)? They are HIGHLY EMOTIONALLY charged and very descriptive pieces which should be felt with the heart and not understood with the mind. There are of course thousands of more great examples from the Classical repertoire.

---

Gae, I admit that there are many beautiful and evocative classical compositions - I still adore Beethoven's "Pastoral Symphony" among others - but still I don't want to generalize that ALL classical would be splendid music, as I have never generalized either that ALL movie music would be good (as many of you have observed). My only point was to make a clear line between classical and movie music - but as we are again approaching the sensitive subject of matters of taste, I admit that I made a blunder here - - and so I retreat with dignity. Some guys make me feel very unwelcomed to these kinds of discussions.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ESB:
See! Can't be a coincidence. Most film music collectors I know are males with a special interest for computers.

---

But I meant that that computer scientist said that music without lyrics is boring.

Though two of my fellow students like John Williams, and at least one likes film scores in general as well, though both aren't collectors.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken S:
How do YOU define it, Marian ?
I'd really like to know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:

But I meant that that computer scientist said that music without lyrics is boring.

---

Wait a minute.... "the need to venture out and find others who like it just to wax on about their feelings with others..." and I am talking about men here? Woah. This sounds like a feminine characteristic to me.... I guess once we finally all get together we like to piss each other off, do experiments on others by pretending to be females, every second month doing the "how big is your collection" thing, etc etc etc. Clearly very manly characteristics now... and....

1. I bought this up on a John Williams messageboard (and will reiterate it here). I think score music fans are generally more educated (either musically or generally) than the rest of the population. I can't say that for certain, but that's the feeling I get. Of course, since the ONLY score fans I have EVER encountered are through messageboards and other online avenues, I can't say that with much certainty.

2. To many people, score music is lumped with classical music (undoubtedly, because a lot of score music is symphonic). I am a score fan but I do not listen to much classical music I find much classical music very meandering and simply haven't the patience to appreciate it. Additionally, I like in score music the same things I like in 'pop' music or 'rock' music - a killer chorus. I *love* an unforgettable main theme, just as much as an extremely catchy chorus on a pop song. Classical music just generally does not have as forcefully renditioned themes as movie music (with some notable exceptions, like Fur Elise or Beethoven's Fifth). Perhaps it can be said that score music is a 'pop' version of classical music - its easy on the ears and is mainly created for commercial purposes.

3. The more you listen to scores, the more you like them, and, as someone pointed out, there is a brilliant score in every score collector's formative years. When I was a wee little thing, I loved the score to 'The Ten Commandments' (to the point of trying to get the main titles onto audio tape but being too young (six or seven) to understand how to do it). Again, a few years later, the same thing happened with 'Edward Scissorhands'. I didn't even realise until I was eleven or twelve that you COULD buy scores. I thought the only thing they could possibly put on an album was the opening and closing titles (I thought other cues were simply too short - a carryover from pop mentality).

4. Once you start to hear more and more scores, you like them more and more. Every film I watch, I hope it will contain a brilliant score (while most people hopes it will contain a brilliant explosion). A few years ago, I thought people who listened to scores and classical music were probably snobs. The one thing that made me form this opinion was that I had heard someone say they had laughed out loud at a comic passage in some classical music. I thought she was crazy and a snob, to think herself that sensitive and musically literate that she could think music could speak that forcefully (I understood at the time that music had a general mood - eg comic, violent, sad, joyful, but I obstinately refused to believe it could make people laugh or cry. Now, I've discovered how wrong I was. I have chuckled or even laughed out loud at certain film score cues (the parodies in Chicken Run and The Mexican have made me laugh) and cried (though not blubbered, admittedly) over certain scores (parts of Schindler's List, Across the Stars, etc).

5. Having said all that, I don't know why certain people take to film scores.

No need to apologise Gae, your explanation seems right, however I might insist on an apology from Peter K and he better be quick before I contact Scotland Yard, the FBI and the SAS

Tim

Sincerely,
KEN [/B][/QUOTE]

WHO? You better come down off that 'other' planet Ken because there's very few genuinely unwelcome people around on these boards and your not one of them!

Continue speaking your mind

NP : Battle Royale - Masamichi Amano...great stuff with some very heavy Barry and Goldsmith influences who themselves were influenced by blah, blah, blah etc

I'd also like to add my thoughts to the film score/classical issue. I know must of its discussors seem to be done with it, but I somehow managed to miss this thread the past three days.

First of all, I live in the dictionary. From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate:

quote:

---

classical...3 a : of or relating to music of the late 18th and early 19th centuries characterized by an emphasis on balance, clarity, and moderation b : of, relating to, or being music in the educated European tradition that includes such forms as art song, chamber music, opera, and symphony as distinguished from folk or popular music or jazz

---

If we are to go by definition "b" ("a" rules out film music completely), then we have to conclude that some film music is classical while some is not. John Williams, for instance, is standing very firmly in the "educated Eurpoean tradition." Something like Mychael Danna's Exotica, or any primarily techno score do not apply.

I usually tend to think of film music and classical music as both separate and the same. It's like Metallica and the Beatles - they're both considered "rock music," but it would be difficult to convince anyone that they're music sounded similar. I feel the same way about film and classical music - they're both part of a larger genre that was simply never given a name. And perhaps that's fortunate: it's better that music speak for itself rather than carry the stigma or preconceptions of a label.

But Ken, to use a quote that's been repeated to death, I think "you are miss the point" when it comes to much of the classical music. You may think I'm crazy saying this, but I honestly believe that your problem is that you're actually thinking too hard about it. Let's take Steve Recih's Music for 18 Musicians as an example. Now, a great deal can be written about the piece's originality and individuality - much HAS been written - and it can certainly be appreciated for intellectual value. However, I can elicit a very emotional response to the piece REGARDLESS of its intellectual value, OR because of it (one or the other... doing both at the same time is obviously impossible). If you listened to it, I am certain you would only find it repetitive, boring, and aimless; but I think you're missing out on a truly EMOTIONAL experience.

Next time you try listening to classical music, forget that it's classical music. Forget what everybody else says about it. If you're not interested in the "intelligent" aspect, then just don't pay any attention to it: just relax your brain and let the profound EMOTIONAL impact of the music overtake you. I've always felt it's just as out in the open as it is in film music - perhaps you just can't see the picture because you're sitting too close to the screen.

And please, Ken, don't ever feel unwelcome. It is a FACT that a discussion of differing opinions will always, by nature, become an argument. Don't let it discourage you... indeed, if they can't change your mind, let it ENcourage you to defend your own views even more vigorously.

Kirk
NP - Michael Nyman: MGV

I do believe music and math correlate. But if women are more verbal, why do men still
outnumber female novelists and poets? Women are catching up in the publishing arena,
but I still think creativity is somewhat related to TIME and home, parental, and working
roles that grant us little time. I’ve seen a lot of female writers comment on the fact they
could write when the kids were at school. A stay at home creation.
Just some random thoughts.

Well, the last five CDs she bought were dance, dance, dance, dance, dance. And the next five CDs she'd buy would be dance, dance, dance, dance, dance. My last and next five CDs, on the other hand, would be film scores, but they'd encompass choral, new age, jazz, romantic symphonic and funk; atonal, electronica, minimalism, baroque and rock. And the next five would maybe incorporate lounge, chamber music, world music, experimental music and Big-Ass Noise.

So yes, I think score fans appreciate a wider variety of musical styles, moods and genres, even from the same composers (STAR TREK INSURRECTION, MR BASEBALL and PLANET OF THE APES are from the same guy!).

I also think that the word sensitivity (that I've also used) isn't a good term. It's too narrow. I think the term emotion is a better one. Music is largely emotions. Emotion can be joy, grief, romance, tension, fear, mystery, power/glory. I believe that film music also has very masculine emotions. Take for instance Arnold's Independence Day. I don't think its evoked emotions of glory/victory and militaristic character will attract a lot of women. So film music can definitely be very 'cool' in my opinion. I also suppose action and tense music doesn't attract women. This could also partly explain the few female film music lovers. Do you think Joan, that women are more attracted to romantic film music?

quote:

---

Originally posted by James:
[B]What makes us film score lover so different? I would venture to say "nothing." The noted similarities among film music fans and the common things that bind us are nice ideas, but I still have to wonder if this is any different than a person who likes (for example) New Age music as opposed to, say, Country Western. I honestly think we're searching too hard for an extraordinary explanation. Is it so difficult to say that we simply have similar musical tastes (regardless of how different many of them are)?

---

Finally I agree with James in 100% on this one.
I like to add that being a movie music lover has NOTHING to do with intelligence - just look around at this very board and you see what I mean. Being a movie music lover IS NOT a social issue - it's more a state of mind than anything else, and thus it can not be argued or explained.

quote:

---

But Ken, to use a quote that's been repeated to death, I think "you are miss the point" when it comes to much of the classical music. You may think I'm crazy saying this, but I honestly believe that your problem is that you're actually thinking too hard about it.

---

Kirk, do you mean "thinking too hard" as THINKING TOO THROUGHLY ABOUT THINGS ? If that was what you meant, that's EXACTLY what I do - and I can't help it. My sincere and "straight" way of feeling about things is, yes, probably a very unhealthy way for an adult in this world around us - - but it's me, and a tiger can't change his stripes.

I have previously tried to explain that I feel deep repulsion towards the "true" Artistry of the so-called "true" Artists. There is a big bunch of people out there who like "true" Art just because IT IS CLAIMED TO BE "true" Art - and this is something I despise from the bottom of my heart. Again, I am dangerously near approaching the MATTERS OF TASTE - but yet I feel that this group of "true" Art lovers are just a brainwashed bunch of people.

What I'm trying to explain here once again is that I don't listen to movie music just because IT IS CLAIMED TO BE MOVIE MUSIC - I like the music because some of it is hell-of-a-good music. The same goes with some of the classical music I adore - and the movies, books, and other sincere stuff I adore. So, I really don't adore things of SOMEBODY ELSE'S SUGGESTION. I'm always very open-minded to explore new horizons, so I am not here to judge that all classical music would be bad - and besides, I have NEVER said such a thing. That's why I found it odd that you said

quote:

---

Next time you try listening to classical music, forget that it's classical music. Forget what everybody else says about it. If you're not interested in the "intelligent" aspect, then just don't pay any attention to it: just relax your brain and let the profound EMOTIONAL impact of the music overtake you. I've always felt it's just as out in the open as it is in film music - perhaps you just can't see the picture because you're sitting too close to the screen.

---

I found the above quote very peculiar, because it desribes EXACTLY HOW I DO APPROACH things, not movie music or classical alone - so, I'm definitely NEVER "sitting too close to the screen".

Nevertheless, although this ended up being a personal defence of who I am, my point was to say and support Kirk's first quote - that it's kinda unnecessary to "search too hard for an extraordinary explanation" of what makes us movie music lovers so different. The fact is that we all are individuals (except those people who believe blindly what other people say and claim) - and we all have our own tastes. I really don't have the urge to know what makes us movie music lovers "so different", but I sincerely hope that people on this planet would try to learn a bit of healthy maturity, sincerity and honesty - the ability to stand behind what they say.

Peace.

Sincerely,
KEN

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken S:
Nevertheless, although this ended up being a personal defence of who I am, my point was to say and support Kirk's first quote - that it's kinda unnecessary to "search too hard for an extraordinary explanation" of what makes us movie music lovers so different. The fact is that we all are individuals (except those people who believe blindly what other people say and claim) - and we all have our own tastes. I really don't have the urge to know what makes us movie music lovers "so different", but I sincerely hope that people on this planet would try to learn a bit of healthy maturity, sincerity and honesty - the ability to stand behind what they say.

Peace.

Sincerely,
KEN

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ESB:
Well, I respect your opinion. Maybe it's hard for most people to say that they are different. Beforehand I figured that this thread would probably be a kind of touchy subject for some. To be honest I'm a bit postively surprised about the amount of interesting opinions it generates. But let me say that the word different mustn't be taken as 'weird'. Different can also be positive. Personally I'm proud that I am a bit different than the grey mass. And I'm still convinced that film music lovers have some specific characteristics. Hard rock music lovers can't also be characterized as standard citizens, can they?
Unlike you I do find it a very fascinating question. It's difficult to really get to know oneself. This question forces me to think deeply about the true nature of myself. Ah yes, the conscious and unconscious complex nature of people

---

I not only admit I am different, I take pride in it. Heck, I feel proud if someone does call me "weird." I just don't think liking film music is much different than liking any other type of music. Yes, for INDIVIDUALS there may be a certain unique aspect that draws someone in, but like Ken said up above, it's just not SOCIAL issue. It may very well be a psychological issue for some, but when you group us all together what you're really talking about is a sociological issue, and speaking in sociological terms, I don't think there's anything that separates our social group from other music-related social groups other than our common taste in music. And I DO find it to be an intriguing question - I just see a much simpler answer than you do.

Ken, I'm sorry this has turned into a defense for you. Please believe me when I say I didn't want that to happen. I guess I just feel this need to "spead the gospel" of classical music, as it were. Sorry if I got a little carried away.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ESB:
Maybe it's hard for most people to say that they are different.

---

"Maybe"..?? I hope you meant that as a joke - because IT IS HARD for most of the people on this planet. I personally have never understood what in it is so hard - it's more fun to admit who one is.

KEN

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken S:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by ESB:
Maybe it's hard for most people to say that they are different.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Maybe"..?? I hope you meant that as a joke - because IT IS HARD for most of the people on this planet. I personally have never understood what in it is so hard - it's more fun to admit who one is.

KEN

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by James:
- - and even though I still disagree with you - -

---

Disagree on classical music, I hope - or something else ?

Nevertheless, thank you for your kind words, Kirk. There are no stickers pasted on my forehead saying "fragile" but yet I feel that some people here may have had that idea about me - and it's a big misconception.

KEN

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken S:
Disagree on classical music, I hope

---

But what about personal creativity like composing film music or writing a novel?
Different feeling. Different kind of creation. Different type of personal
satisfaction.

ESB, yes, women I know do tend to like romantic music. I love lush melodies, but
my favorite music is thematic action music like in westerns or Conan. That mutant
gene, I guess. Thanks for the genetic compliment when relating it to my daughters.
I still think changing expectations for them and teaching them that the world
was possible helped. “We’ve come a long ways, baby.” They never
considered only nursing or teaching as a career, and now both work in hi tech
industries. They deal with computers much better that I do. They readjust the Tools
when they have problems. I HATE this computer, which is so anal retentive that it
has no tolerance for ambiguity. I threaten it with a baseball bat, which is creative.
We’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree on men having more “innate” creativity
than women. I think we’re genetically equal in that arena, but not in the real world.
I’ve worked with a lot of unimaginative men (and the opposite) and many
creative women (and the opposite) whose aspirations are too often limited by the
environmental expectations of mother, wage earner, wife, keeper of the hearth, etc.

NP The Sand Pebbles

quote:

---

Originally posted by ESB:

And Rachmaninov: don't you think that most people have a high sensitivity? I think what differentiates us from the rest is that we're not afraid to give in to this sensitivity that everyone has. For some reason we're indifferent about what people think about us. We're not afraid to be the person who we really are. We have a very own personality. I think a lot of people are performing an act their entire life. I sometimes almost throw up when I see people behave in an overwhelming fake way on TV. Would also seem very tiring behaviour.

---

ESB:
I agree that unlike other people, we are not afraid to give in our sensitivity. But furthermore, I do believe that suppressing your feelings, ends up reducing your sensitivity. So, not being afraid of being “extremely” sensitive helps you to live every moment more and more intensely (even when you are sad) developing your sensitivity.
What the truth is? Only film music might be able to explain…

Rach
NP: Armageddon – Trevor Rabin.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timmer:
Over to you mom Joan, Gala, Rochelle...

---

I should emerge from my lurker status to point out that Rochelle has left the message boards for the time being. We communicate via e-mail and she is doing well for anyone concerned. She is just very busy in her life right now and has not had time to visit, but if you would like to know her feelings on this very interesting discussion, I could ask her to take a look.

Joan, just so you know you're not alone here, I thought I would speak up to echo most of your opinions here in defense of our gender. However, I believe there are many more women interested in score music than the average man here seems to think. Two of my close friends, Laura and Beth, also love film music and have purchased CDs on occasion. Granted, they don't have the passion or fervor that I do about it, but then, they don't buy other CDs like I do either. I am a music junkie, and I don't think it has anything to do with my sex. I think everyone is unique and different no matter what gender we are. Putting labels such as levels of sensitivity, creativity, mathematical abilities, etc. because one is male or female is incorrect IMHO.

with love as always,
the filmscore gal,
Galina

HOW MANY OF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF AS MATERIALIST when speaking of movie music collecting ?

Because today in my car I once again realized that even though I'm far from a materialist person, my quest for collecting rare movie music has truly a materialist "feel" on it - and this is because I don't actually LISTEN to these soundtracks almost at all (compared with the way the majority of you others seem to listen), but I do get a gigantic pleasure out of the fact that I have this rack full of the movie music I've always dreamed of getting. This thing also touches my previous subject of classical vs. movie music in that specific way, that I've never felt this kind of driving urge collecting any classical music - but always, ALWAYS when I see a movie with splendid (magical) score, my fingers start to itch with the feeling "I want it ! I need it ! I WANT IT !!!"

So, any of you feel the same way ?

KEN

"...Suddenly,
Suddenly it happens
And the dream comes true.
Wonderfully, beautifully it happens
And your world is new.
Magically, you're holding the golden prize
Mystically, your castles begin to rise."

-Richard M. Sherman & Robert B. Sherman,
from THE SLIPPER AND THE ROSE

- - Oh, by the way,
if someone doesn't enjoy the above "too rosy" lyrics from the stupidest Cinderella adaption ever filmed for big screen, maybe you enjoy the following lyrics

"Roll on thunder shine on lightnin' the days are long and the nights are frightnin'
Nothing matters anyway and that's the hell of it
Winter comes and the winds blow colder well some grew wiser you just grew older
And you never listened anyway and that's the hell of it

Good for nothin' bad in bed nobody likes you and you're better off dead goodbye
We've all come to say goodbye, goodbye
Born defeated died in vain
Super destruction you were hooked on pain and tho' your music lingers on
All of us are glad you're gone
If I could live my life half as worthlessly as you
I'm convinced that I'd wind up burning too..."

-Music and lyrics by Paul Williams, from PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE

(I like BOTH the above musicals, so I must be a chaotic conflict of different contrasts).

KEN again

Somewhat releated to this is: are film music lovers perfectionists? I know I am (to a certain degree). Perfectionists are very demanding about themselves but also about others. Film music is in my opinion of very high quality. For instance the melodies that are produced in other music genres pale when you put them next to melodies that are produced in film music. I sometimes laugh about the so-called quality of popular music. But that's because I put my standards very high. Most people probably don't do that as much.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ESB:
I wonder if a collecting drift is a general characteristic of human beings.

---

It IS a general characteristic.

quote:

---

Somewhat releated to this is: are film music lovers perfectionists? I know I am (to a certain degree). Perfectionists are very demanding about themselves but also about others. Film music is in my opinion of very high quality. For instance the melodies that are produced in other music genres pale when you put them next to melodies that are produced in film music. I sometimes laugh about the so-called quality of popular music. But that's because I put my standards very high. Most people probably don't do that as much.

---

ESB, I can honestly admit being a perfectionist too. I can agree with you in 100% about the "high class" in melodies while comparing movie music to popular music - however I do admit that we're talking about tastes here, once again For some people the horrible pop music can mean "high quality" while others, like you and me (and probably quite many on these boards) consider it very low quality.
(...And yet I like some pop hits like Ricky Martin's SHE BANGS, etc, because of the MELODIES so I must be a totally crazy guy).

One thing more, though - in my opinion the "high quality" in movie music means that the music is mostly ORCHESTRAL and that many different instruments are used to produce this marvelous music. From the beginning of time I have loved movie music because most of it uses symphony orchestras to the greatest extent - half of the "magic" in movie music (of which I often speak about) comes, in my opinion, from clever choosing of instruments, the orchestration, and the truth is that most pop music doesn't concentrate on instruments this much.
[PLEASE NOTICE THAT I SAID
M O S T POP MUSIC - not all].

quote:

---

Originally posted by ESB:
I wonder if a collecting drift is a general characteristic of human beings.

Originally posted by Ken S:
It IS a general characteristic.

---

I tend to agree, although I'm not sure about it.

More about perfectionism. I'm not only perfectionistic about music but also about other things. For instance, my stereo is of very high quality. I'm one of those idiots that wants to pay thousands of dollars for an increase of sound quality of a few percents. Or in my job I want to know everything in detail. Of course perfectionism only applies to areas of interest. For instance I don't care much about clothes or how my hair looks. So you won't see me spending much time on those issues.

I also think that perfectionism implies something of "it must be all there". Your thoughts about symphony orchestras with many different instruments also points in that direction. Orchestras are the summun of instrumental diversity. I think musical perfectionists demand a certain kind of complexity and completeness in music.
When some 'musician' with a few brain cells puts his synthesizer in repeat mode, throws in some words like 'oh baby' and gets a hit record, I have a tendency to throw up. Because he's probably laughing his ass off in some million dollar home, while other very talented and true musicians get ignored. But the main problem is that people buy that stuff. For some reason a lot of people don't care if music is of low quality and simple. They don't have high standards, they aren't musical perfectionists. So I don't think it's *only* a matter of taste. A lot of people are easily pleased. They *know* there is better music out there, but they are indifferent about it. Like I am about clothes

Just thinking out loud here