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Author	Topic: Horner plagiarising Schindler's List?

Bodhizefa Muggle	Ok, so everyone already knows Horner basically rips HIMSELF off on at least one or two themes per film. But I just got done watching Enemy at the Gates, and besides the normal four note "villain" motif that Horner has used since the beginning of time, the main love theme sounds damn familiar. I'm sitting there humming it like I had seen the movie before and heard the score a hundred times, and yet this was most definitively the first time. I mean, you never forget your first, right?! So I hum and hum, and I'm wondering why I'm thinking of another Nazi movie, because the theme definitely hits the Nazi-caused heartache in me. So it's either the main love theme or just the main theme, but it definitely rips right off of John Williams' "Schindler's List." It's the main theme of S.L., about 18-20 seconds into the first track of the album. I mean, it's the same goddamned theme. Jeez, don'tcha think Horner could've come up with a better place to crib from for his Nazi effort than the most well known Nazi movie of the last 10 years and an Academy Award winning score to boot!?! Jeeeezus, dude. Start workin' on some more Celtic shite. At least you're just stealing from yourself when you use that damn Ulean pipe. Don't go for Johnny boy's throat as well! Anybody else hear this?
posted 10-11-2002 10:49 PM PT (US)

TimT Wizard	Yeah, but I didn't really care since that score is so powerful and moving inside and outside the film.
posted 10-11-2002 10:59 PM PT (US)

jonathan_little Wizard	Bodhizefa, the score totally ruined the movie for me. Every time Horner did his rendition of JOHN WILLIAMS' THEME FROM SCHINDLER'S LIST I nearly threw bricks at the TV. (Yes, I have bricks in my living room for this purpose.) TimT, are you in denial or something about these blatent copies? The score is a complete pile of garbage that dragged the film down into the gutter with it.
posted 10-12-2002 10:02 AM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	OK, this was discussed before. Williams' SCHINDLER'S LIST theme is based on an old eastern European folk melody. Horner based his theme on the same source. Dan
posted 10-12-2002 11:57 AM PT (US)

ESB Muggle	So Williams won an Oscar for a score where the main theme is copied from an old eastern European folk melody?! Wow. I didn't know that. They kept that pretty quiet. It certainly gives the Schindler List score a different taste now that I know that :-/
posted 10-12-2002 01:50 PM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	quote: Originally posted by ESB: So Williams won an Oscar for a score where the main theme is copied from an old eastern European folk melody?! Wow. I didn't know that. They kept that pretty quiet. It certainly gives the Schindler List score a different taste now that I know that :-/ No... it wasn't "copied". It was heavily inspired by it. And that is perfectly valid. Dan
posted 10-12-2002 01:56 PM PT (US)

ESB Muggle	Hmmm, "heavily inspired"? Isn't that a fancy way of saying "plagiarize"? If Horner was also heavily inspired by that old melody and not by Williams's theme then it's pretty coincidental that their melodies sound exactly the same... Williams did an impressive moving job with Schindler's List. I guess it's sometimes acceptable to use material from other composers in situations where it's really very effective and suitable. But you have to be explicit in that. The CD booklet doesn't say anything about it. It really annoys me if people keep that quiet and pretend they have composed it. Especially when you're nominated for an Oscar. But sadly plagiarism without mentioning the original work or composer seems to become normal and acceptable these days. Just look in the popular music industry :/
posted 10-12-2002 02:46 PM PT (US)

madono_x Muggle	Sorry guys,but..this theme of Enemy of the gates is based (based??Better say "copy and paste") on an old Mr Horner theme from Project X(1986).(3 notes what James repeat in every score that he does) Seeu Np:Sneakers..oops!I mean A beautiful mind.jeje (I want to know the record label of Hans Zimmer's the ring!!!!)
posted 10-12-2002 03:40 PM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	quote: Originally posted by madono_x: Sorry guys,but..this theme of Enemy of the gates is based (based??Better say "copy and paste") on an old Mr Horner theme from Project X(1986).(3 notes what James repeat in every score that he does) Seeu Np:Sneakers..oops!I mean A beautiful mind.jeje (I want to know the record label of Hans Zimmer's the ring!!!!) Umm..... not quite. The 3-note "danger motif" has been in a lot of Horner scores, but that's not the theme we're talking about here. And right now, no album is coming out for THE RING. Dan
posted 10-12-2002 03:47 PM PT (US)

madono_x Muggle	mmmm...Yes yes..I Know what is the theme that you talking about,and in my opinion is very similar to "Danger motif"... Well,I always think that is stupid talk about "plagiarism" in terms of first rang composers. Do you really bealieve that Mr.Horner Plagiarize Mr Williams??Or Mr Zimmer Plagiarize Mr.Morricone?? (ok,don't answer to that question,jeje).It's ridicule In music there are casualities. Seeu NP:The thin red line,(much better than Shcindler's list or Enemy of the gates) :P Jordi
posted 10-12-2002 04:09 PM PT (US)

James Wizard	quote: Originally posted by ESB: Hmmm, "heavily inspired"? Isn't that a fancy way of saying "plagiarize"? If Horner was also heavily inspired by that old melody and not by Williams's theme then it's pretty coincidental that their melodies sound exactly the same... Williams did an impressive moving job with Schindler's List. I guess it's sometimes acceptable to use material from other composers in situations where it's really very effective and suitable. But you have to be explicit in that. The CD booklet doesn't say anything about it. It really annoys me if people keep that quiet and pretend they have composed it. Especially when you're nominated for an Oscar. But sadly plagiarism without mentioning the original work or composer seems to become normal and acceptable these days. Just look in the popular music industry :/ This happens a lot. It's not plagiarism, it was done with a serious purpose, just like all the tunes in Michael Nyman's The Piano which come from 18th and 19th-century Scottish popular songs. And classical music is repleat with examples of composers basing large symphonic works off of folk tunes. Kirk NP - Wonderland (Michael Nyman)
posted 10-12-2002 05:29 PM PT (US)

Bodhizefa Muggle	guys, it just doesn't matter if you're "honoring" an old piece of music. if you don't give credit for the damn piece, you are a THIEF -- a goddamned gyp artist. can you say it with me, folks... horner is a bank robber. he thieves and steals from everyone old, new, and even himself, by god. stop! thief!!!
posted 10-12-2002 10:49 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	If you would be so kind as to provide the name of this folk tune, Dan, we'll be making progress in this discussion. I am agreeing with Bodhizefa here at the moment. "Heavily inspired" should at least qualify for a "inspired by" credit on the CD. Knowing Williams, why wouldn't he offer credit? It's understandable James Horner wouldn't want to "unveil" his sources [wink], but Williams? Of course, the better judgment comes after we've listened to all tunes concerned. Again, the name of the old eastern European folk tune? Grazie.
posted 10-13-2002 12:41 AM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Wizard	We all went through this territory when ENEMY AT THE GATES came out in theaters. My take at the time was that this proved once and for all that Horner was a hack thief. Some defended, well, even if Horner borrows, the music always works dramatically, but EATG was a perfect example of a Horner score not working at that level either. But let's go with some logic. Williams uses an old folk piece as the basis of his LIST theme. It's been done before: Copland, Thompson, Herrmann, Rozsa. And he doesn't credit it (maybe the tune is 'Traditional' having no known author anyway). OK, but what are the chances that Horner even knew the piece before it showed up in LIST? He probably heard the piece was based on a folk theme and said to himself: "I have a new score that'll please the producers and I don't even have to worry about being sued by Williams over it since he borrowed the theme too." In any case, I'm more likely to believe that scenario over any other. Now it's called unfair favoritism if we attack Horner for stealing and don't attack others. I don't like cribs in any case, no matter who does them, even Herrmann who can do no wrong in my book. But part of the reason that Horner takes the heat is because he is so blatant at it and such a bad arranger-composer to boot. At least the rest of these guys try to write something original or have a sense of how music and film work together. Horner just lays on the cribs with a trowel destroying everything in his path. And it has to do with legacy. For years Golden Age composers were accused of ripping off the masters and they hated being considered second-raters. Now Horner comes along and confirms everything bad critics have been saying about Hollywood for 70 years. He should be run out of town on a rail. Instead he's considered A-list over composers who are much more deserving of the place and films that Horner gets to do.
posted 10-13-2002 03:00 AM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: If you would be so kind as to provide the name of this folk tune, Dan, we'll be making progress in this discussion. I honestly don't remember; I just remember when Nyman's manager was bitching to me about how he couldn't get nominated for THE PIANO, but Williams could get nominated for SCHINDLER'S LIST, even though both were based on folk melodies. And it was also being discussed in the various film music circles back when ENEMY AT THE GATES came out.... Dan
posted 10-13-2002 09:48 PM PT (US)

scoreguy16 Wizard	So let me get this straight, we're complaing about a score we can't change and about a composer that we all know can't change? What about all the Horner plagerizing Horner??? I am sure he doesn't have rights to reuse his music over and over again. Either way I am still sort of a fan of Horner's. I do like what he did with Williams... or who ever's theme for Enemy At The Gates. Clayton
posted 10-13-2002 09:52 PM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Wizard	When it comes to Oscars there are only 5 nominees in most catagories and a lot of deserving work doesn't make the cut let alone actually win the big prize. I think it's only a fluke or politics if Nyman couldn't get as far with The Piano as Williams could with S's List. But even if the S's List theme worked and was considered so heartbreaking to many, I really wish composers would steer away from this use of themes not by themselves or use of themes previously by themselves. But the fault isn't just their's, producers using temp tracks, and notoriously short schedules are all deadly to quality music finding its way into film sound. If the system rewards you for your pliability over your integrity, then you can't expect its practitioners to retain standards.
posted 10-14-2002 12:23 AM PT (US)

ESB Muggle	I did some online research and all I could find is that Williams used several(? Jewish folk songs for Schindler's List. But which Jewish folks songs is a mystery. So the usage of those Jewish songs seems suitable for Schindler's List. But he still should have mentioned it and not be so secretive about it. But why the heck Horner used the Schindler's List theme abundantly clear in Enemy at the Gates, for a non-Jewish Russian military setting I don't quite understand. I don't think that Horner would be so foolish to use material from Schindler's List that Williams composed himself and that is not traditional. Maybe he wanted to point at Williams and say "Well, he also used this traditional material for Schindler's List and even won an Oscar. Why can't I?". I hate to say it, but he would be damn right (only if he credits the original work, that is). Williams semi-God status in the film music community doesn't imply some special privileges for Williams. This might be interesting from Tom Daish: http://www.soundtrack-express.com/osts/enemyatthegates.htm If I'm correct Goldsmith also used a traditional sailor song for The River Wild. But they did mention it on the album that the main theme (that was also used in a song) was traditional. Mr. Goldsmith, thumbs up!
posted 10-14-2002 04:24 AM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	ESB, I am with you all the way. There's no point in saying Williams' Schindler's List was heavily inspired by Eastern-pop-European-folk-Jewish-tune-melodies unless there is a solid footnote to go with it. Dan, call up John Williams, ask him what the deal is, and put an end to it. Forget about Nyman's manager. We know about artists managers when clients don't get the gold. And yes, Goldsmith's River Wild did use "The River is Wide" (the traditional melody has different lyrics depending on where you come from, however, the tune sung by the Cowboy Junkies should be obvious). Credited too.
posted 10-14-2002 10:58 AM PT (US)

JeffBond Wizard	Goldsmith (and many other composers) has done this on numerous occasions--the song "Ride Old Paint" (also used by Aaron Copland in "Billy the Kid" or something) was used by Goldsmith in his score to The Wild Rovers, and I think even one of the themes to A Patch of Blue is based on a traditional song (I remember it showing up in an '80s movie with Henry Thomas). The theme to Rudy is also allegedly based on an Irish song. The problem is it is very difficult to indict a composer for his intentions in this regard. As film music fans, we tend to judge everything on how it compares to other film scores, so the Schindler's List-Enemy at the Gates comparison seems quite obvious. But to Horner it might not be so obvious (at least this is the line he's taken in several interviews). He's stated that Goldsmith's Capricorn One is inspired by an earlier classical piece and so when Horner is seemingly ripping that off in his scores he's really acknowledging this other classical work, and he wonders why no one attacks Goldsmith for Capricorn One. Horner has said it annoys him when other composers slightly change the notes of a previously-written classical theme in order to "claim authorship"--an obvious (to the point of being simple-minded) example of this is in King Solomon's Mines, where Goldsmith uses Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" theme and adds two notes to the end. There's no credit in the movie that says "Ride of the Valkyries" theme by Wagner, but obviously Goldsmith assumed that everyone would recognize this theme and find its association with blundering pre-WWII Germans funny. Classically-trained composers may find refererring to certain concert music themes very obvious and make the assumption that at least a part of the audience is going to "get" whatever they were implying by that reference. To many of us Horner's "self-plaigerism" is the real rub, but even pinning this down is difficult. Yeah, there's his ubiquitous "bad guy" theme, but I think even this is some sort of reference to the Huns in Prokofiev's score to Alexander Nevsky--a particularly appropriate quotation for Enemy at the Gates. This all sounds like a defense of Horner, but it's not--I find that Horner's familiar bag of tricks throws me out of a movie or score by him more often than not. But it's hard for me to get that worked up by it anymore. Referencing other works is part of music, and it's fundamental to film scoring for many reasons: the necessity to make a quick, clear association for the viewer, temp tracks and lack of time, conventions and more esoteric intentions by the composers. It's not always that easy to determine which reason is behind any particular, familiar-sounding passage in a score.
posted 10-14-2002 11:19 AM PT (US)

jeffy unregistered	Sorry to jump into this conversation so late, but yes, we have discussed this ripoff before. But Dan's observation that "Schindler's List" was itself inspired by a previous composition brings up an interesting point that I don't have enough information or insight to participate in, only to say that I have always thought that Track 6, with the boy's choir, contains a melody similar to the film's main theme. But, whether or not Williams ran off with a much-deserved Oscar for basing a major theme on a previous melody is not what's at the fore here. I think Horner should not have used that melody (which is most prominent in the end credits of "Enemy at the Gates) because he obviously knew that Williams had already used it to superior effect. Horner's use only looks like a Johnny-come-lately.
posted 10-15-2002 01:57 PM PT (US)

scoreguy16 Wizard	I have a question, why are we only ripping on James Horner? What about all the other composers that copy themselves? Like Goldsmith... actually, now that I think about it, almost every composer does. Zimmer has Gladiator in Pearl Harbor (not just the waltz type stuff, but track 14 from the first disc of Gladiator sounds like beginning of track 7 on Pearl Harbor). Goldsmith's action cues are the same a lot of the time. Rabin's orchestrations are the same, Media Ventures composers stick to their same themes. It's all in the composer's style. So, maybe you don't like Horner using someone else's theme. Then don't pick up the soundtrack, save your money, and move on to something you do like. There's a reason a composer is selected, and it's ussually because of their past work. Clayton [Message edited by scoreguy16 on 10-15-2002]
posted 10-15-2002 06:56 PM PT (US)

Chris Kinsinger Wizard	"I think Horner should not have used that melody...because he obviously knew that Williams had already used it to superior effect. Horner's use only looks like a Johnny-come-lately." That's TRUE for we educated few. Even Ron Howard and Chris Columbus don't seem to mind that Horner *TRACES* scores for their movies from music of other sources!
posted 10-15-2002 09:42 PM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Wizard	Jeffy is right. The theme that Williams based LIST on became so familiar as a result (and so associated with LIST) that it seems like theft for Horner to use it again even if it isn't by Williams. But that does raise a strange logic: "I ripped it off first so you're plagiarising from me for ripping it off second." It is funny to hear Horner whine about CAPRICORN ONE: "How come I can't rip off the same work Goldsmith did without taking heat." What a hack. No shame over cribbing, just over getting caught at it. And why does Horner care? I'm sure it must be a plus at this point to say on his resume that he's ripped off everyone and only been sued over it once. The thing is that all these guys should be ashamed of themselves. If you can't compose any longer, retire. But the industry and the culture at large encourages this practice to some degree. The US Copyright office was just taken to court because it wanted to keep its extentions on works falling into the public domain. Universities and others complained that the extentions kept this material from being taught and utilized. Uh, call me old-fashioned, but I do remember a time when private property and individual rights counted for something. Now they just seem like obstacles standing in the way of criminality. As for what Jeff Bond brings up. There is a line between associative uses and what we're calling theft. If a British warship moves out of port (as it does in Ernest Irving's score to CONVOY) and you hear 'Rule Brittania' (as you do hear it in CONVOY), I don't consider that a crib in quite the same way as we've been talking. All the Warner Bros. films of the 40s used 'Deutschland Uber Allies' to signify a German presence on screen. Goldsmith's use of Wagner isn't a destructive kind of crib since it raises a certain association in a specific context for a deliberately comic purpose--he wants the piece to be recognized for what it is, he's not trying to feather his nest with it. On the other hand, Horner using Prokofiev to underscore GLORY or Enya to underscore TITANIC stretch the point a little too thin for me. This strikes me as theft rather than commentary. I'll give credit to Horner (or Cameron) for seeing the TITANIC sound as being Celtic. But if this is what they wanted, they should have hired Enya instead of cribbing from her.
posted 10-15-2002 09:56 PM PT (US)

jeffy unregistered	Just for the record, I have no problem when composers lean on a previously composed piece for a film score (no one ever mentions the homage to Holst in pretty much all of "Star Wars"). But when it's lifted (as Horner does) as opposed to being used as inspiration (as almost every composer has done in their careers), it's not good, and unprofessional.
posted 10-16-2002 09:24 AM PT (US)

Bond1965 Wizard	So the theme from "Schindler's List" is based on a folk song, huh? Funny...for years I thought it was based on a theme from Philippe Sarde's 1991 score to "Pour Sacha." I guess Sarde used the same folk song as the basis for his score too. And while we are on the topic of Sarde and plagerism, anyone notice how often he has reused the same themes from score to score. (Probably not as few here even listen to scores that aren't written for popular Sci-fi/action/comic book films.) Anyway...it's true. For those who are interested, check his score for "Le Choc" against his scores for "Manhattan Project," "Lord of the Flies," "Music Box," etc. And while you're at it, check his score for "Ennemis Intimes" against "Eve of Destruction," "Le Bossu," etc. (Actually, that theme may have even originated earlier, perhaps in a jazz form on "Beau Pere.") Also, Sarde's main theme for "The Bear" is a direct rip off of a classical piece that I can't remember the name and composer of at the moment. So...once again...this stuff has been going on for AGES. Newman & Rozsa did it too. Let's give Horner a break. James
posted 10-16-2002 09:35 AM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	quote: Originally posted by Bond1965: Funny...for years I thought it was based on a theme from Philippe Sarde's 1991 score to "Pour Sacha." I just listened to this and find little to no similarity, at least not in the same league as is Horner's Enemy at the Gates with Williams' Schindler's List. quote: Also, Sarde's main theme for "The Bear" is a direct rip off of a classical piece that I can't remember the name and composer of at the moment. Actually, the theme is another one of those Eastern European folk melodies both Sarde and Tchaikovsky "ripped off" for their own compositions. It's noted on the The Bear release, too: "music composed and arranged by Phillipe Sarde." And this is my point. I had hoped to focus the discussion a little more on the lack of credit for these folk/traditional tunes for movie music (Oscar-winning scores included), especially if suspected scores are so heavily influenced by them. Forget about composers rehashing their own stuff for the moment. Let's talk about something else that has been talked about before, and that is: What is this supposed tune from Eastern Europe that has heavily influenced John Williams' Shindler's List? Apparently it was "outted" before, but I missed that discussion before and am completely interested to know now. There's nothing here about Horner, Goldsmith or Claude Achille Debussy rehashing their own stuff, so move away from this! So, what'll it be?
posted 10-16-2002 10:11 AM PT (US)

ESB Muggle	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: Forget about composers rehashing their own stuff for the moment. Let's talk about something else that has been talked about before, and that is: What is this supposed tune from Eastern Europe that has heavily influenced John Williams' Shindler's List? Apparently it was "outted" before, but I missed that discussion before and am completely interested to know now. There's nothing here about Horner, Goldsmith or Claude Achille Debussy rehashing their own stuff, so move away from this! So, what'll it be? Can't Dan ask some associates of Horner? I don't think Williams' associates are waiting for such sensitive questions. I think we'll have more chance with Horner's camp. Or Nyman's agent? Come on Dan, you have a chance to get this big news out into the world. And you and Peter will get really famous
posted 10-16-2002 12:41 PM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	quote: Originally posted by ESB: Can't Dan ask some associates of Horner? Oh, sure - lemme get my rolodex out. quote: Come on Dan, you have a chance to get this big news out into the world. And you and Peter will get really famous Who broke the news about Shore scoring Lord of the Rings? Thanks, but I'll get my own 15-minutes of fame my own way, on my own time. And without Peter. And I notice you're a "Muggle". Nice to see that's been all straightened out. Dan [Message edited by dgoldwas on 10-16-2002]
posted 10-16-2002 01:00 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	PeterK, who likes sarcasm! LOL, ESB. BTW, Dan will never have one minute of fame without PeterK. Never. Ever. It's against the laws of physics. Would someone like to answer my question? You guys are irritating me.
posted 10-16-2002 01:45 PM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: BTW, Dan will never have one minute of fame without PeterK. Never. Ever. It's against the laws of physics. LOL - ah, but if only that were true, eh Peter? Dan
posted 10-16-2002 01:59 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	I could care less, Dan. As your pal Ford Thaxton would say, "That's your problem.... you don't care." Yup! The only time I ever agreed with Ford. Anyone got an answer for my question, or are we going to pretend it was answered, when it really wasn't? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
posted 10-16-2002 02:36 PM PT (US)

dgoldwas Wizard	quote: Originally posted by PeterK: I could care less, Dan. Obviously, given your constant posting on the topic. Dan
posted 10-16-2002 02:53 PM PT (US)

jonathan_little Wizard	Peter, I can't say I'm surprised that nobody has the answer.
posted 10-16-2002 04:01 PM PT (US)

PeterK FishChip	Thanks for bringing us back on topic, JL. I find it strange people will claim the answer has been delivered, only to have it AWOL when asked for again. Of course, this is a film music message board... weird things happen oft. Perhaps the spooky season is getting the best of us. Already. NP - "Talk to Her" music by Alberto Iglesias. Fantastic soundtrack album. Classically mellow.
posted 10-16-2002 11:31 PM PT (US)

ESB Muggle	Message deleted. I thought I found the answer but it seems to be a false alert [Message edited by ESB on 10-18-2002]
posted 10-18-2002 03:36 AM PT (US)

JeffBond Wizard	Just to keep the inanity going, I gotta argue with the guy who lumps Goldsmith's action writing in as self-plaigerism with the indictment that "it sounds the same." Exactly what action cues "sound the same"? Granted, you can say that U.S. Marshals motif crops up through several of his recent scores but there's still variation and differences. This is where I argue Goldsmith has a recognizable style, which is not self-plaigerism. Self-plaigerism is reusing the exact same music in the same way. By the same token, I have no problem with John Williams taking a rhythmic motif he used in The Lost World and developing it into a much more exciting and sustained piece of action music in Minority Report's "Anderton's Great Escape." I'm happy to have the new music. If he'd have simply reused the MUSIC note for note from The Lost World it would be appalling.
posted 10-18-2002 11:08 AM PT (US)

Lou Goldberg Wizard	Bond1965--It's true that Sarde cribs from himself quite a lot and you missed some like La Nuit Ensoleillee and Joyueses Pacques being the same theme. I don't like this, I want original Sarde and good Sarde when I go to buy his albums, but I guess I let Sarde "off the hook" more often because when he is insprired to do something original, it's often very good (not always but more often than not). And, in general, I like Sarde's "sound." Like Delerue and Rozsa whose scores all ended up sounding the same, it somehow didn't matter since more of the same was still good. Even if Horner never ripped off a single note, I still don't think I'd like his output. Of course, Sarde cribbing can piss you off more than it does with Horner. When Horner does write original stuff it sucks anyway, but when Sarde writes a new score and it sounds like some previous thing, you can blow your stack knowing that Sarde may still have something good left inside him and doesn't put it out. In any case, there is a sort of favoritism involved. ALL composers need to be condemned for this practice. But composers aren't equal and some still deserve our praise over others. As for JeffBond--I'm inclined to agree. If a composer discovers something in one score and develops it further in another, that's not as criminal to me as lifting it wholesale from one score to another. Even then, the jury should decide case by case. Herrmann lifted a passage from ON DANGEROUS GROUND and used it to much better effect in NORTH BY NORTHWEST. But he also lifted a passage from THE GHOST & MRS. MUIR and used it to no better effect in TENDER IS THE NIGHT where IMHO I think he should have composed something new in its place. Still, today, when every score gets a recording or re-recording and nearly every aspect of a film is attended too by an audience, none of these guys should be cribbing from themselves or anyone else--it's simply too obvious. Maybe Williams thought that no one watching TESB would have also seen IMAGES so a little crib would be fine, but now with VHS, LD, and DVD, it doesn't take much for someone to see both and go "Ah-ha!" Today, no composer can crib 4 notes without someone on the Crib Police catching it. And yet the practice still takes place! For shame! [and Lou just shakes his head]
posted 10-20-2002 10:30 PM PT (US)

zlebret Muggle	Who cares at this point? We've all been witness to his plagiarization of himself and others over the years. Yet we continue to get angry whenever he does it. For those of you who are not composers, filling time with music is very difficult, and creativity doesn't always agree with your deadlines. Horner has had his moments of brilliance and originality, but some people dry up faster than others. I think the only way to see a fresh side of Horner is if the studios stop kissing his ass and keeping him busy. Maybe then he'll take a break, do some soul searching, find a project that's very personal to him, and do something new, but until that day comes, he'll always have time to make sure there is always plenty of music (albeit non-original) to accompany all those long long movies he does.
posted 10-22-2002 02:05 PM PT (US)

JeffBond Wizard	When you've written thousands upon thousands of notes, particularly when you're in your 70s or 80s, I think you can be forgiven for occasionally forgetting that you combined some notes the same way in something you did under pressure ten or twenty years earlier. Obviously there are echoes of earlier Goldsmith works in his current scores. Sometimes that's practically requested--you hire the guy for his style, and when the director of The Last Castle says he hired Goldsmith because he was the greatest writer of military movie music I doubt he was disappointed when some of the Last Castle score sounded like Patton.
posted 10-22-2002 03:59 PM PT (US)

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