In some ways I am happy because fears of some heavy compression being undertaken will be lesser fears now obviously, but on the downside of course, the idea of an isolated track is nice.

Dan

[Message edited by Dan Brecher on 10-07-2002]

It's not uncommon that some features aren't listed on the back of the DVD box, especially isolated audio tracks. (If anyone can point out where the STARSHIP TROOPERS DVD box mentions that it has commentary by Basil Poledouris, please let me know. )

So, we'll see.

I have to laugh, though, at the poor schmucks that the OneRing.net poster mentioned who have already sold their CDs.....

Trying to get final word from Digital Bits and via one with the check discs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Brecher:
Trying to get final word from Digital Bits and via one with the check discs.

---

Well, DVDReview.com is now reporting the iso score as being on there... and they say it's what New Line is reporting.

We've heard back from New Line on those 5.1 isolated music and sound effects tracks. It's confirmed that they will not be on the disc, contradicting the information they sent us a few days ago. Apparently, they were to have been included originally, but they eventually had to be dropped for disc space. The disc spec information we were sent simply hadn't been updated. Hopefully, that explains the mix-up. The main concern we have is that the DVDs feature the highest video and audio bit-rates possible to maintain quality. All other extras are secondary to the presentation quality of the film in our minds. So while it's disappointing that the isolated tracks will not be included, it's entirely understandable.

CRYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CRYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we all keep writing... The fact is that New Line dropped these tracks because of disc store space. They are willing to release the full score to LOTR: FOTR.
This opens up a whole new ballgame...

If the response is high enough... They might press a separate DVD with Audio and picture stills or SACD or whatever....

There is a tremendous demand for an expanded FOTR score. Not even from us film music score buffs, but also the "regular" casual score buyer... Even the LOTR fanbase counts as a potential and target consumer.

If marketed well... This will top any DVD-release! :-)

*hopeful*

Shall we start a petition?

Dear New Line,

We understand your reasons to drop the 5.1 isolated music score on the upcoming DVD's of the LOTR: FOTR SE. We are deeply saddened, but rest assured... if you start pressing the full score in 5.1 surround we will buy it and add our purchases to your revenue, rocketing all LOTR franchise and merchandise SKY HIGH!

Yours and signed by all others
Tolkien lovers (sign here)
Howard Shore lovers (sign here)
Film music score lovers (sign here)
Casual music listener (sign here)
Classic music listener (sign here)
Any other (please sign everywhere!!!!)

Uhhu!

Never heard the score.

But I was going to buy the DVD if it contained an ISO track. Now I won't.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zlebret:
Starship Troopers doesn't have an iso score on the original disc, therefore it would not be there. On the special edition, it says "Isolated Score" quite clearly on the back of the box.

---

yeah - and that's the one I'm talking about. But do you see it say anything about the commentary by Basil Poledouris? No? Still looking? It's not listed, but it's there. That's my point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan_little:
Space problems... that's just a cop out.

---

Once you learn a little about DVD authoring and disc capacity limits, you'll see that it's not a cop out - unless you don't care about quality. But then, you'd probably just complain about that....

Dan

I've had dinner with Van Ling in LA a couple of times and he didn't produce FOTR DVD but has produced both Star Wars prequel DVDs, T2, Abyss...etc...etc and we'd often discuss issues of compression and it's really quite incredible everything that goes into mastering discs.

DTS alone, even at the halfbitrate, takes away twenty minutes of disc space which is a crazy amount in my opinion. I'd rather have the iso tracks than DTS ES 6.1 on Fellowship, but reasons for my opinion of DTS are for another time as there's much people don't understand about the format or more to the point, the way studios are exploiting the format wrongly.

The theatrical edition DVD of FOTR, with the original cut compressed onto a single RSDL disc looks good, great even, but this has to look better. If you watch the current FOTR DVD on a well calibrated big TV or, preferably a projection screen, there are a number of compression artefacts that are very visible. The extended cut, spread over two discs in my opinon MUST look better than the current DVD that's out there.

Same deal with the recent Beauty and the Beast DVD. It looks good enough, but Disney have compressed disc 1 to hell slapping 3 seperate versions of the film on there (no branching), animated menus, interactive game, english and french 5.1 tracks, a commentary and trailers for forthcoming DVDs...

Judging how complete the team behind the film trilogy are trying to make every product, I don't doubt we'll see Shore's dream of a mega CD set in 2004 or 2005 when we can have expanded scores from all three and more presented in some sort of disgusting 10 disc set. :)

Dan

5.1 channel audio (encoded in DD5.1) takes up the same space as regular 2-channel stereo (not Dolby-encoded) audio. I can direct you to a website, where you can download *.wav files that you burn on a regular CD. Once burned, you can enjoy DTS-surround encoding with the same space use by PCM-standards.

These self-burn discs are only playable on your DVD player as a standard CD, but you have to have a DTS out.

Foobsie

However.. true 5.1 DVD-A (no encoding) makes use of all the disc capacity.

Here is the link
http://www.sr.se/multikanal/

NP: ARMAGEDDON-Trevor Rabin/Harry Gregson-Williams (full score)

I wasn't aware the disc had a DTS track. That's 768kbps right there, so I'm not surprised the isolated score track was removed. The best question is, why the hell was it announced in the first place? Certainly somebody failed math class.

And about DVD audio formats...

Dolby Digital can be encoded at what... up to 640kbps? That's a lot less than a PCM track.

DTS on CD/Laserdisc, which uses almost all of the bandwidth in a 2 channel PCM stream, is about 1234kbps. On DVD its either 1509kbps (rare these days) or 768kbps.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan_little:
Dan G, I wasn't aware that you are now a DVD authoring expert. From your tone you seem to think that I'm a total freaking moron that has little clue about DVD or the capacity of the format and just complains for no good reason.

---

Nah, I think you're just inferring waaay too much in my comment. And anyways, it's not my fault if you didn't know about the dts track - you just started bitching about how "space problems" was a "cop out". That told me right away you didn't know what you were talking about.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Foobsie:
Here is the link
http://www.sr.se/multikanal/

---

Thanx. For those like me who only know three or four Swedish words (most of them from Ikea commercials), here's a link to the English version.

I love DTS, but I'd love an isolated score track even more.

I guess my original inference was because the disc had 4 or so audio tracks (DD English 5.1, probably a commentary or French track, score track, and effects track) that there would definitely be no space for something as big as a dts track. I guess I was right in a way, it's just that the dts track is there and instead of two of the DD tracks.

I guess I'll live without it.

I've still got that petition up for the complete CD score at: http://www.petitiononline.com/LOTRFOTR/petition.html

So far it is at 1366 signatures. I've written www.theonering.net once again to see if they will post it. I've also written www.thedigitalbits.com since I've written to Bill Hunt quite often over the years and he may occassionally post my information or will it least write back. No guarantees though.
I've also contacted Howard Shore's agency about the petition, but I haven't heard anything back and I doubt I will since he is very busy. I just hope he will get a chance to see the petition. I really hope The One Ring will mention it since they are a high profile site. I just hope a complete score will come out well before 2006 while the interest in it is high.

Support DVD-Audio, this could be a nice format for film scores in the future.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor:
I said in another thread that WB is planning on doing a DVD-Audio release for this score. Why is that a bad thing?

---

Nobody said that's a bad thing. But it's different from an iso score and therefore not a replacement.

quote:

---

Even if they don't, the 5.1 channel sound works on ALL DVD players (just the video supplements won't work).

---

Not true. The video part should work on all players (I think), the audio part will only work on non-DVD-A players if they include a DD/DTS/PCM track. And if the DVD-A has the full score (>2hr) - full score being one of the reasons many of us wanted to hear the iso score - I'm not sure if they can fit a track for "normal" players on it.

quote:

---

Support DVD-Audio, this could be a nice format for film scores in the future.

---

Or SACD.

quote:

---

Who knows, maybe they will include cues NOT on the CD release.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Taylor:
[b]I said in another thread that WB is planning on doing a DVD-Audio release for this score. Why is that a bad thing?<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody said that's a bad thing. But it's different from an iso score and therefore not a replacement.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Even if they don't, the 5.1 channel sound works on ALL DVD players (just the video supplements won't work).<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. The video part should work on all players (I think), the audio part will only work on non-DVD-A players if they include a DD/DTS/PCM track. And if the DVD-A has the full score (>2hr) - full score being one of the reasons many of us wanted to hear the iso score - I'm not sure if they can fit a track for "normal" players on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Support DVD-Audio, this could be a nice format for film scores in the future.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or SACD.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Who knows, maybe they will include cues NOT on the CD release.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

If not, I won't buy it. Better sound quality is fine, but miss the point if we're all waiting for a complete release in a few years anyway.[/B]

---

I'd buy the DVD-A or SACD full disc score and even if I don't own the machines, I'd buy them in a heartbeat!

Toshiba, Marantz, Onkyo, and a couple of other high end machines only support DVD-A

SACD on the other hand has the backing of Philips, Sony, Yamaha (soon) and I believe Panasonic just jumped in.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor:
Nope...DVD-A's advanced features (videos, graphics, FULL surround) are ONLY playable in a DVD-A supported machines.

---

The DVD-A audio tracks won't play on DVD-V players, of course. Are you sure the video streams only work on DVD-A machines as well?

quote:

---

YOU CAN play DVD-A 5.1 mixes on a standard DVD-V only machine.

---

Only if there's a standard DVD-compatible (2 channel PCM, DD, DTS, MPEG) track on it as well. So you either have uncompressed stereo sound or compressed surround sound on DVD-V players.

quote:

---

Toshiba, Marantz, Onkyo, and a couple of other high end machines only support DVD-A

SACD on the other hand has the backing of Philips, Sony, Yamaha (soon) and I believe Panasonic just jumped in.

---

There are also players that can play both formats.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
Well, if nothing else, the removal of the iso score caused a very enjoyable thread by our favourite soundtrack producer.

---

Well I for one can't stand threads like that one. Seeing a bunch of grown adults act like little kids is not my idea of fun, IMHO.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Taylor:
[b]Nope...DVD-A's advanced features (videos, graphics, FULL surround) are ONLY playable in a DVD-A supported machines.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

The DVD-A audio tracks won't play on DVD-V players, of course. Are you sure the video streams only work on DVD-A machines as well?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>YOU CAN play DVD-A 5.1 mixes on a standard DVD-V only machine.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if there's a standard DVD-compatible (2 channel PCM, DD, DTS, MPEG) track on it as well. So you either have uncompressed stereo sound or compressed surround sound on DVD-V players.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Toshiba, Marantz, Onkyo, and a couple of other high end machines only support DVD-A

SACD on the other hand has the backing of Philips, Sony, Yamaha (soon) and I believe Panasonic just jumped in.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are also players that can play both formats.

[Message edited by Marian Schedenig on 10-11-2002][/B]

---

Being an early adopter of the format, I bought the first discs released by Warner. I had a regular DVD-V player with 5.1 Dolby and DTS capability. The video and supplemental features will not work on a machine that does not have DVD-A capabilities. You are right, there is a DVD quality sound part recognizable for non-DVD A machines without the ability to use them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taylor:
The video and supplemental features will not work on a machine that does not have DVD-A capabilities.

---

Interesting...and strange. As good as DVD quality is, I sometimes wonder why they made the format the way they did.

quote:

---

You are also right that there are some machines that feature both DVD-A and SACD, but they are rare AND very expensive high end machines.

---

Which means that I probably won't be able to listen to DVD-A/SACD sound for a long time. I bought a high end DVD player because I didn't want a separate CD player, so anything other than a really good DVD-A/SACD player probably wouldn't make sense. Plus I wouldn't want to not be able to play one of the formats, so it would have to be a hybrid player. Hence no use that there's a DVD-A upgrade for my player.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Taylor:
[b]The video and supplemental features will not work on a machine that does not have DVD-A capabilities.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting...and strange. As good as DVD quality is, I sometimes wonder why they made the format the way they did.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>You are also right that there are some machines that feature both DVD-A and SACD, but they are rare AND very expensive high end machines.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which means that I probably won't be able to listen to DVD-A/SACD sound for a long time. I bought a high end DVD player because I didn't want a separate CD player, so anything other than a really good DVD-A/SACD player probably wouldn't make sense. Plus I wouldn't want to not be able to play one of the formats, so it would have to be a hybrid player. Hence no use that there's a DVD-A upgrade for my player.

I guess I'll simply have to be patient. [/B]

---