Does anyone see a heir to the throne after our current maestros career's come to a close?

John Williams single handedly lighted the spark that exploded the interest in film music. Do you see someone right now that is able to captivate audiences with their melody as Williams did in Star Wars?

A little story:

After Jordan retired from the NBA, many spectators and coaches were looking for the "next Jordan". A individual with frightingly incredible athleticism by the name of Kobe Bryant joined the Lakers and dazzled the people. After 3 NBA titles and countless accolades, people are still divided as to dubbing Kobe "the next Jordan".

There is a lot to live up to in a name. Similarly it will be very hard to live up to the title "the next Williams."

Shirley Walker
Mark Snow
Velton Ray Bunch
Christophe Beck

I don't know who gets the Goldsmith crown of scoring bad films wonderfully - maybe Eliot Goldenthal or Carter Burwell.

I like Shirley Walker, her name recognition is way to low to get Goldsmithian assignments

James Newton Howard would not be a bad choice although he sometimes comes across as a little bland.

Howard Shore could match his atonality and is getting his name out there among the elite.

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
[B]Not sure if I like the thought of this, but I think the next mega/popular composer ala Williams will either be James Horner or Hans Zimmer.

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Zimmer will never take John Williams place.
He doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.

no one has ever taken Max Steiner's, or Bernard Herrmann's.

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Originally posted by JJH:
no one will ever take John Williams' place.

no one has ever taken Max Steiner's, or Bernard Herrmann's.

The best we can hope for is that the current crop of film composers lives up to the traditions of the past. Thomas Newman, Carter Burwell, Elliot Goldenthal, Howard Shore, JNH and some others are really going to be quite capable.

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JJ speaks sense, I'll second that!

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Originally posted by JoeinAr:

Zimmer will never take John Williams place.
He doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.

[/B]

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Oh stop it you're killing me.

-Erik-

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Originally posted by Spicy Ramen:
A simple question.

Does anyone see a heir to the throne after our current maestros career's come to a close?

John Williams single handedly lighted the spark that exploded the interest in film music. Do you see someone right now that is able to captivate audiences with their melody as Williams did in Star Wars?

A little story:

After Jordan retired from the NBA, many spectators and coaches were looking for the "next Jordan". A individual with frightingly incredible athleticism by the name of Kobe Bryant joined the Lakers and dazzled the people. After 3 NBA titles and countless accolades, people are still divided as to dubbing Kobe "the next Jordan".

There is a lot to live up to in a name. Similarly it will be very hard to live up to the title "the next Williams."

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Well, Williams is great but does he deserve THAT much credit. Single-handedly? I'd argue that strongly.

Williams,Goldsmith, Bernstien and all the other greats before them for that matter, were singular talents who made thier own marks on the scene in thier own ways in thier own voices. Will there ever be another John Willaims? No, Goldsmith? No. Herrmann? No.

I say why hold someone the standard of duplicating the impact of a predessesor? Let the new blood make thier own mark without measuring them against the Williams (or Goldsmith, or whoever) God-O-Meter.

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Originally posted by UCFKevin:
There hasn't been a TRULY memorable theme to anything for ages.

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Originally posted by JoeinAr:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by MWRuger:
[B]Not sure if I like the thought of this, but I think the next mega/popular composer ala Williams will either be James Horner or Hans Zimmer.

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zimmer will never take John Williams place.
He doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.

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I meant in regards to being well known among non score fans. As in "popular". I am not talking about talent or his reputation among score fans. I would give the edge to James Horner.

I think your question has already been answered. There's never been another Rozsa, Friedhofer, Steiner, or Waxman simply because those men grew up in a different world -- one where they were steeped in musical education, knowledge of ALL the arts, and they were intelligent people who grew up reading the classics and engaging in lively conversation instead of watching TV and playing with synthesizers.

As our population keeps getting dumbed-down, soon we won't even be good enough to be turning out third-rate Zimmers, which is a frightening prospect. While many of you see this as film music's golden age, the dumbing down has already been going on for a long time. Of all the young composers out there, even those considered to be among the best, I don't think many of them can hold a candle to even the average composers of yesteryear.

number of Britney Spears CD sold versus Einojuhani Rautavaara symphonies....point made. thanks.

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Originally posted by HAL 2000:
I say why hold someone the standard of duplicating the impact of a predessesor? Let the new blood make thier own mark without measuring them against the Williams (or Goldsmith, or whoever) God-O-Meter.

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I agree. Also to add that many of these composers don't want to be considered the next 'anyone'...just to be themselves.

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Originally posted by rachmaninov:

I’m preparing myself to be a good film composer, learning the classical theory before than the modern. My goal is to reach William’s level.
(You may say I’m a dreamer)

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You are a dreamer, because if you think being a film composer is simply about knowing how to line up notes on paper, you're totally mistaken.

As for who will take over, I think we're already in the midst of the transition. You still have the older composers like Williams and Bernstein doing great work, but we have several mid-age composers working. Howard Shore, Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman, Trevor Jones, Mychael Danna, James Horner, Hans Zimmer, etc. These guys aren't just good composers, but they are good FILM composers. They've made their careers by knowing how to score FILM, work with directors and navigate their careers. That's what film composing is about.

Frankly, I'm not too worried about who will "replace" John Williams. The answer is simple: no one can. You can write music in his style, but that doesn't replace his accomplishments. There are more than enough composers working to satisfy everyone, there certainly is for me.

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Frankly, I'm not too worried about who will "replace" John Williams. The answer is simple: no one can. You can write music in his style, but that doesn't replace his accomplishments. There are more than enough composers working to satisfy everyone, there certainly is for me.

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That's not my point.

Why do you think the Kobe story was inserted into there?

After Jordan left the NBA, so did the viewers and audience. The rest of the NBA was simply not "up to par." Along comes this kid, amazingly talented and brought a flair that no one has seen. And so the people began to tune in again.

Williams essentially made kids and adults alike go out and buy the music after they left the theater

Can you see audiences going to their nearby recordshop and snatching up LP's of Rosza's Ben Hur after they left the theater

I am not putting any composer down. The fact is that Williams brought film music from a niche audience and broadened its appeal. Predecessors like Steiner and Roszas were brought to the limelight in the process. People who snatched up Jaws and [/b]Star Wars[/b] also saw copies of Prince Valiant lying beside it and he picks that one up to.

This thread is not a discussion of what composer ranks over another, but of the film score community as a whole. Yes perhaps by the time we have kids, names like Goldsmith, Elfman and Williams will be to your children what Roszas, Steiner, and Waxman are to us.

Question is,

Do you see someone that will be able to "seduce" a brand new whole audience into the world of film music.

While the generation post Williams, Goldsmith, Horner, Barry, etc. is now and will continue to be human, cast your forecasting a mite further...

The era of artificial intelligence (actual or quasi) is slowly, but surely dawning upon us.

It should be possible to program a computer with all the theory of musical composition, supplemented with all the actual film music ever composed. Want 2 minutes and 23 seconds of action music, or soft tender first kiss romantic music, or spooky atonal stuff, then the director should be able to feed those requirements into the computer, and have several possibilities churned out. Maybe initially a human will be needed to tweak awkard musical monments, but eventually...

Theory + past actual examples + computer crunch power = new music. Given the rate of computer storage and processing power it shouldn't be too far off - say the generation after next.

I see a future 20 years from now when films will be totally computer generated, no human or animal actors or on-location backgrounds needed, including associated music! Epic films produced on a shoe-string budget!

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Originally posted by rkeaveney:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by rachmaninov:
[b]
I’m preparing myself to be a good film composer, learning the classical theory before than the modern. My goal is to reach William’s level.
(You may say I’m a dreamer) <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are a dreamer, because if you think being a film composer is simply about knowing how to line up notes on paper, you're totally mistaken.

Ryan[/B]

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Originally posted by Spicy Ramen:

After Jordan left the NBA, so did the viewers and audience. The rest of the NBA was simply not "up to par."

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Please don't use the NBA as an example. I'm Canadian, and I don't give a rats ass about the sport.

People tuned out from basketball because they were tired of seeing 10 foot tall gangsters goof their way across a hardwood court for hours, and get paid $20 million a season to sweat into a towel.

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Do you see someone that will be able to "seduce" a brand new whole audience into the world of film music.

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I personally wasn't "seduced" by John Williams into film music. My first scores were by Trevor Jones (THE DARK CRYSTAL), Jerry Goldsmith (POLTERGEIST) and Danny Elfman (BATMAN).

Whether 10 or 10,000 people enjoy film music, it makes no difference to me. Nothing can take away the enjoyment I get from film music. So if some little kid leaves a film and isn't interested in film music, I'm not going to get suicidal.

Ryan

a.i. experiemnts have been done numerous times with classical music to have the computer "compose" Chopin nocturned or Elgar symphonies. All they sound like is patchwork stuff; a conglomeration of the emulated composer's past work. A similar film music program is already working, and it's a real human being.

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Please don't use the NBA as an example. I'm Canadian, and I don't give a rats ass about the sport.

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That's your opinion. I respect that.

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People tuned out from basketball because they were tired of seeing 10 foot tall gangsters goof their way across a hardwood court for hours, and get paid $20 million a season to sweat into a towel.

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Yeah...and thereby forgetting that this sport has been in existence for almost a millenium. Please.

Millions watch the game nightly. It ranks among one of the world's most popular sports alongside soccer. Countries around the world have thier own leauges . You stereotype too much.

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I personally wasn't "seduced" by John Williams into film music. My first scores were by Trevor Jones (THE DARK CRYSTAL), Jerry Goldsmith (POLTERGEIST) and Danny Elfman (BATMAN).

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Understand that film music is both a genre and a business. Without a sizable amount of consumers the market would not be able to sustain itself. The scores you mentioned above wouldn't have probably be released if the market consisted of the film scoreboarders on the net. Williams helped create a market for film music period. Argue about that all you want.

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thereby forgetting that this sport has been in existence for almost a millenium

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Originally posted by Spicy Ramen:

[b] <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Please don't use the NBA as an example. I'm Canadian, and I don't give a rats ass about the sport.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's your opinion. I respect that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>People tuned out from basketball because they were tired of seeing 10 foot tall gangsters goof their way across a hardwood court for hours, and get paid $20 million a season to sweat into a towel.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah...and thereby forgetting that this sport has been in existence for almost a millenium. Please.

Millions watch the game nightly. It ranks among one of the world's most popular sports alongside soccer. Countries around the world have thier own leauges . You stereotype too much.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>I personally wasn't "seduced" by John Williams into film music. My first scores were by Trevor Jones (THE DARK CRYSTAL), Jerry Goldsmith (POLTERGEIST) and Danny Elfman (BATMAN).<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Understand that film music is both a genre and a business. Without a sizable amount of consumers the market would not be able to sustain itself. The scores you mentioned above wouldn't have probably be released if the market consisted of the film scoreboarders on the net. Williams helped create a market for film music period. Argue about that all you want.

[/B]

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I will, thank you. this is what I'm talking about. I love Jown Williams' music as much as anyone but I hate the notion the history of film music somehow begins at him. I owned soundtracks of Papillon, The Blue Max, Planet of the Apes, Chinatown, the Omen and many others long before Star Wars ever hit the scene.

Please don't make statements such as "if it weren't for John Williams..." Please remember that John Williams scored a MOVIE which, in it's whole, became beloved to a generation and entrenched itself into pop culture. True, his music did influence Hollywood's attitude regarding the traditional, symphonic score as well as the millions who didn't know they could be affected by such a thing. That IS to his great credit. But the movie, by itself, changed a lot of things about the art and business of Hollywood movies. Future sound design, special effects, make-up, production design and so forth, would ALL take cues from the film.

All of these elements, together with music, worked in harmony to create the experience for the moviegoers who fell in love with Star Wars.

Though Hollywood had begun to succumb to pop-music tendencies in the early-mid 70's there were still many, many symphonic scores being produced during the period and which predate Star Wars and John Williams. The examples are too obvious to mention.

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I owned soundtracks of Papillon, The Blue Max, Planet of the Apes, Chinatown, the Omen and many others long before Star Wars ever hit the scene.

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I agree, and so did many others. But do you agree with me that the market pre-Williams was considered a niche market?

Any common fool knows that there was film music way way before Williams. You can even predate it to Tschaikovsky and his Sleeping Beauty/Nutcracker ballets.

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But the grand notion of he being the sole savior of the traditional orchestral score is a gargantuan exaggeration.

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Elfman, Goldenthal, Steiner, Roszas and countless others have their equal if not greater contribution to the art of film music.

I didn't say he was a sole saviour of film music. I said that he was able to broaden the appeal of film music to a wider audience.

You probably haven't head of the name Benny Goodman, but it's under similar circumstances. Try to look him up under Jazz. Then you'll understand.

You make good points and I agree with your last post. I guess what I'm taking exception to is what you're saying about the film music audience/market. Film music serves the film first and the record seller second. You mention at least a couple of times that without the consumer market that film music would not be able to sustain itself. Do you mean the market that goes to movies or the market that buys CDs? I think producers have caught on that the public will buy a score only soundtrack and factor that into the produciton of a movie. But most times the director and producor are more concerned with making a movie that will work dramatically and, hopefully, commercially inasmuch as it fills theater seats. The soundtrack CD is secondary to this.

If orchestral soundtracks didn't sell big to the public that doesn't mean that orchestral composers would not get work scoring films. Williams did and continues to have a wide audience for his CDs. That's remarkable.

But other composers (many with a much less accessible tone) are benefitting too. How much is hard to measure.

Good thought about Benny Goodman. Although that is only one genre of jazz.

Yes, they did. That's why there were two albums featuring music from that film. They snatched up soundtracks so much that when they were released on album back in the seventies, people bought them in their new pressings. There were price guides to soundtracks and dealers and people traded records and wrote articles about film music.

Your generation did not "create" the soundtrack market. The main reason the soundtrack market is bigger today than before is simply because it's easier (hence, cheaper) to release film music CDs than before. There were lots of labels decades ago who would have gladly been doing what FSM and Varese and Prometheus and BYU and other labels are doing now, but they weren't allowed access to the material at the time.

"The fact is that Williams brought film music from a niche audience and broadened its appeal. Predecessors like Steiner and Roszas were brought to the limelight in the process."

There were an awful lot of soundtrack specialist dealers back before Williams made it big. All of us who have been into film music long before STAR WARS had the same kind of dependable soundtrack dealers that you do today.

"People who snatched up Jaws and [/b]Star Wars[/b] also saw copies of Prince Valiant lying beside it and he picks that one up to."

There was not a release of PRINCE VALIANT until the FSM release of a couple of years ago. The only excerpt was on the "Sunset Boulevard" LP. Many people WANTED it released, but the studio wouldn't allow them to do it. It's really the money-hungry studios who are allowing the music to get out there -- it's not because they have a love for film music. For the most part, if they think they can make some money off it, they'll let somebody release it. They don't care if it sells well or not, although they hope it sells well enough that others will come to them to offer them money to release more CDs. They care about the money a lot more than they care about the soundtrack fan, whom they still consider a "niche market."

The real difference between now and thirty years ago is that the internet allows film music fans to introduce themselves to each other, whereas in the past we were more isolated. But we were just as passionate about film music in the old days and there were a lot of us as well. Some of the RCA Classic Film Scores sold hundreds of thousands of copies, if I'm not mistaken. And these for films that were thirty years old at the time. Which of the soundtracks that you love now will sell hundreds of thousands of copies when they're thirty years old?

Please don't forget this fact!

1. The tone of the first post was probably misinterpreted. I never doubt or question the talent of one composer compared to another. The question was to highlight the fact that:

Given the association of Williams names to film music (I have friends who aren't into film music, but they do know his name), do you see someone who's appeal is so strong that it transcends its built in audience (people like us)?

2. Perhaps the basketball story was a bad one, but it was to highlight how among a group of peers, there manages one to shine and stick out among others for whatever reasons.

3. Well in relation to #1 as the number of people who buy film score grows, more composers are given oppurtunities to compose (simple economics). Doesn't that bode well for us? Or would you rather film music hidden in its little niche?

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the market that buys CDs

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Well, Williams is getting old (so are Jerry, Elmer, Maurice et al.) and someday he's gonna kick the bucket. So who takes his place as king of film music?

Well, I'm not sure that anyone we have composing now on the sidelines is likely to reach the recognition and overall quality and appeal of Williams. Of course, if someone had said in the 60s that Williams would be the big name in scoring a lot of people would have done double takes. Maybe someone out there doing so-so work today may come into their own in a decade and pull out scores that people don't think are in him/her right now.

And, as people are being born, grow, and find their talents and niches in life, it may be that the next big film composer is 6 years old right now.

The sad thing is that with the movies in decline and the creative space of film composing being narrowed by the insistence on a homogenized style, a great composer would be wasted on the movies right now or would have a tough time establishing a voice that would set him apart from the soup.

In that respect there may be no new era of film music just people who think what they have is something special. I mean look at the people who like Horner and Zimmer and all these other clones of the homogenized sonic wallpaper style. If they can think this stuff is great than anyone can come along and be the next Williams to them.

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Originally posted by Spicy Ramen:

The scores you mentioned above wouldn't have probably be released if the market consisted of the film scoreboarders on the net. Williams helped create a market for film music period. Argue about that all you want.

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If the all-powerful Williams is responsible for BATMAN being released on album, then why are many of HIS OWN scores still unreleased?

Probably economics. Williams has little to do with the film music market beyond his group of fans. Saying that he is the harbinger of big soundtrack business is ludicrous and smacks of Williams fan-worship.

In: Film music fans
5 minutes ago: John Williams fans
Out: Harold Faltermeyer

Ryan
NP: Noah's Ark / Grabowsky / Academy Promo

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Originally posted by Peter Greenhill:
Long before 'Star Wars', John Barry created a whole new generation of film music fans with his early Bond scores.

Please don't forget this fact!

Pete

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Not forgotten by me Pete, I was one of them!

Barry is the seed that released my love of this art form (with a little help from Barry Gray, Hammer films and Ennio Morricone via Hugo Montenegro )

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Originally posted by rkeaveney:
You are a dreamer, because if you think being a film composer is simply about knowing how to line up notes on paper, you're totally mistaken.

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