I have a gripe with all of you. It seems to me that while you all bitch about Zimmer, Horner, Williams, Shore etc etc etc about their music, I think a lot of you fail to actually hear the music.

Since that doesn’t make sense, I'll just say it, why does it matter who wrote the score if the music is good?

A lot of people have bitched lately about "Spirit" "ATOC" and "Spider Man" and even Shore’s post LOTR score, “Panic Room” (it is great BTW) complaining that composers have hit slumps or what not. Give me a brake.

I think a lot of people have reservations about composers and their music (IE: Horner and Zimmer) and don't buy them, granted that Horner's self-rip offs get annoying, but he still write good music for films. And Zimmer always delivers on some level.

While you all bitch about how Zimmer's "Spirit" (cough) is bad, and all this other crap, why don't you sit down and LISTEN to the music, regardless of who wrote it.

I think a lot of people have lost sight of the true meaning of a film score, who gives a crap who wrote it. The questions is does the music sound good, are the themes strong? And is the music well written? That's the stuff we have to ask and not going by who write the darn thing.

I don’t know how other people feel about this, but I think nowadays people focus more on WHO rather then the music itself. People don't care about the music; because most people can't get past the name on the case, heaven forbid you take a chance and try the score. People are more concerned about William's rip offs from "Close Encounters" in "Minority Report" than the music itself and how it functions within context.

Composers like Williams, Horner, Zimmer, and Goldsmith have been writing music for over 20 years, I'd like to see people here write something just as good as these guys. They are masters of their craft, why don't you people respect them for it.
--Brian

NP: Unearthed

PS: I just recently picked up “Unfaithful” by Kaczmarek all and all a very interesting score. My first CD by that composer. Case and point, I was more interested in the score than who wrote it.

As much as an actor or actress is *supposed* to bring a character to life, and help you forget the person behind the persona, a composer is *supposed* to bring a score to life on screen, and make you forget the talent behind the sound. It's all about storytelling... compelling characters, a plot-driven story, and the emotional appeal (i.e., music) that helps us connect with the story overall.

I listen to music for music's sake. Yes, I will always support Williams, Elfman, Horner, and Zimmer in their new scoring projects, I want it because it is good music. We must, as TRUE score afficionados, take each score separately, and strive not to connect it to the composer's immediately prior project, or one he did twenty years before.

Tell me, does anyone ever say that everything that John Saul, Stephen King, Anne Rice, Tom Clancy and other hot-selling authors put out these days read too much like their older, more "original" material? There is such a thing as style. Whether you're an author, with a certain way of writing descriptions, or a director with a certain way of manipulating the actors and the camera angles, or a composer, who uses certain styles of instrumentation (i.e., heavy brass, sweeping strings, or the occasional and rarely used electric guitar).

Take twenty years to establish yourself in a craft, make yourself high in demand and very good at what you do, and then, perhaps you may find yourself working well with the style that best fits you.

The critic you describe is not me.

For instance, I do not like all of Mark McKenzie's work (e.g) Dragonheart: A New Beginning) despite him being my favourite composer.

With reference to Zimmer - I have written scathing attacks of 'Pearl Harbor' because I felt it deserved it not because it was composed by Zimmer. I loved TTRL, Gladiator, and Black Hawk Down.

I see the point you are making but some credit has to be given to those who can offer more 'objective' comments.

quote:

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Originally posted by Maestro Sartori:
Yes, I will always support Williams, Elfman, Horner, and Zimmer in their new scoring projects, I want it because it is good music. We must, as TRUE score afficionados, take each score separately, and strive not to connect it to the composer's immediately prior project, or one he did twenty years before.

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Aren't you contradicting yourself? You say that you will always support future projects because its good music - but how do you know they will be? Because - you are comparing them to past projects. Then you say that true aficionados take each score seperately.

Nothing personal Maestro but I loathe that sort of self-congratulatory/self-authenticating tone...ie.. I am true...you are not...its hideously seperatist and bourgoise.

How am I not supposed to recognize the ripoffs? If every Britney song was based on the same melody with different lyrics, I think people would be annoyed. In the same way, I'm annoyed when I hear the same notes from Jimmy time after time. I know some people don't care about it and good for them. I'm happy that they enjoy the music. I'd rather seek out more Franz Waxman scores right now instead of Windtalkers or whatever.

A composer's name can set up a prejudice. Based on how many Horner scores I dislike, his name on a score tends to be an automatic alarm bell.

If I were to do a blind taste-test, I might surprise myself by picking the Horner as the best of a number of possibilities.

As for the issue of cribs, it's not so easy to sidestep as you might think. For those of us who listen to film music as music and who are more keenly aware of the music as they watch films, these things are harder to ignore than if they were average filmgoers with no real background or knowledge.

A score may work dramatically in a film but play less pleasantly on a sound system. Also, a score full of cribs and cliches may not work in a film at all, even if you can't identify all the original sources. The score to Enemy At The Gates not only did not work well in that film, it hurt the film. Playing it on its own for pleasure sounds inconceivable to me.

In any case, I think it's all right to complain about a film composer's failings on a number of different levels.

But, even if I'm not going out of my way to pick up the latest Horner score, I'm not going to slam or praise it until I've heard it. Still, I haven't been listening to many new scores unless I hear them in the films first. And that isn't always giving them a fair listen since it is harder to follow a score in a film than it is at home. So, I am guilty of not hearing some scores because of WHO wrote them.

All I can say is that I only have so much money and so much time and I can't buy and listen to everything so I have to be selective. Some composers have burned me more than others and I take that into consideration.

Sorry

I agree with you 100%. This has been bugging me for the longest, yet I have been chicken to post anything about it because of some prevailended attitudes making the round on this board.

It seems that we have gotten to the point that we do not listen to scores for the sake of pleasure, but to dissect, compare and criticize. We look for the bad instead for the good. We argue about the latest new hair style of a composer and the effect it may have on his composing abitlites (give me a break) and we most defenetly try to find a "rip off" in every darn score that comes out. It gets boring and quite frankly annoying at times.

Now I can hear the voices "Well, if you dont like it Scott, you don't have to read it and you can get out". Well, I haven't been on here as frequently as I used to be. Yet, I won't be bullied away either. I simply pick and choose where I respond.

Yet, as if that was not enough, we love to kick the crapp out of those who may have different opinions than we have. One likes the score to Spiderman more than Batman....he needs to take a pill because he doesn't know crapp! To me that kind of attitude is childish, immature, petty and quite amazing. If the guy thinks Spidey is a better score than Batman, or if he likes it better, so what? Does that make his taste better or worse than others on here? Does it make him superior or lower than the majority?

We are formost film music lovers here, although it is very hard to tell these days. Zimmer is a score factory....Horner hasn't composed anything original since Casper became a ghost....Goldsmith has simply recycled The Marshall milllions of times and doesn't know how to dress...Williams is old and should retire...and the list goes on and on. The music itself mostly gets lost somewhere in there.

What is the solution? I dont' know. I am sure there will be some responding to my post if personal insults and ridiculous claims, but as I do so often in life, I really don't care. Most of us here can't write a musical note if any of these composers would hold our hands. Maybe we're jealous, maybe we simply lost the love for this music and became to knowledgeable, to academic for our own good. What seems striking though is that some of us here who DO know how to compose, tend to be more focused on the music itself. They do not easily get sucked into this syndrome.

Well, I am listening right now to Minority Report. Sure, I can hear similiairties. I hear the style of John Williams. But foremost and above all I hear some incredible music.

Rochelle,

I don't see that he came across like that at all. This is the second post you took overly personal on this threat. If you know you are not one of the people Crono or the Maestro are talking about, then don't worry about it. No one was pointing the finger at you personally, yet you busted on here ready to start world war 562. No names were meantioned here and as Crono stated, he did not even have you in mind, so don't feel so offended bye this.

*If this offended you, I'm sorry it was not meant to be, just trying to point something out here.

Scott

No offense taken and yes I did bust in here like 'World War 562'. I knew that after I made several posts earlier today. I actually enjoyed being Devil's advocate for a few hours.

I didn't take it as personally as you might think or by the impression I gave - you'll just have to take my word for it on that one. I'm just stating a defense - which I think is justifiable when someone comes in and says "I have a gripe with all of you".

The comments I made above should not be taken personally - just as I don't take your comments personally. I've read enough of Brian's posts to know he's a cool guy. Probably....I'm still in that thesis mode where I have to defend every statement made and look at every sentence and speculate its validity.

That said, Brian - you shouldn't feel any need to apologise to me at all on any account. I'm looking at it more from an argumentative angle than a personal one. Please accept that.

Finally, I still maintain my position (see there I go again..) about the self-congratulatory tone. I don't believe in 'true aficionados'...self-authentication etc

quote:

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Originally posted by Lou Goldberg:
The score to Enemy At The Gates not only did not work well in that film, it hurt the film. Playing it on its own for pleasure sounds inconceivable to me.

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By the way, "some" here have compared Minority Report to CE3K... have any other scores by Williams reminded us of that classic space film? I honestly don't recall any other score that touches so closely to Close Encounters, but then again, I'm not used to comparing one of his scores to another. Instead, I hear a few strains, and I go.... Williams. Good style.

J.C.

"Film composers should be judged by their individual works. I don't like John Williams just because he IS John Williams, but because he has composed some very magical film music. The same thing goes with all my favorites."

In other words; A movie score can be a good one or a bad one regardless of who wrote it.

Further quote from my member profile:
"Time to time I can get mighty critical about today's movie music - but it's mostly because I have learned to love movie music when it still was MUSIC with distinct melodies... and a further reason is that I'm an old fart compared to the majority of the visitors on these kinds of sites."

******

Brian, although I know that you didn't mean "all" of us, I agree with Rochelle. There are many people on this board who DON'T make inane attacks on the composers nor on the members of this board - and unfortunately it seemed for a moment that you wanted to attack ALL OF US.

Thanks Maestro

I'm not quite sure what you mean by self-authentication in response to my true afficionados remark.

What I'm trying to say here is that establishing oneself as a 'true aficionado' (authentic) invalidates other score enthusiasts as untrue (not authentic) if they don't 'take each score seperately'. Taking each score seperately prescribes (only one way) rather than describes (possibilities) a process of appreciation.

What is wrong with listening to a score in a context of other scores? Is it possible to listen to a score purely on its own terms?

Are you a movie score enthusiast? Great! I am, too! It is people like you and I who come to a site like this, and make it a great place to discuss great (and not-so-great) movie music. I hope that you didn't misunderstand me.

Forgive the hostility in my initial post. I'll admit I was a hothead. No misunderstandings and certainly nothing personal.

However, Williams has earned my respect enough that, most likely, I will add any new score by him to my growing collection. Does that mean I think it's automatically a hit, or one of his Top Ten Best? Hardly.

I see what you are saying here. Its much more clearer than saying 'I want it because its good music' which seems to declare all future projects as good and thereby putting it in context (rather than addressing one each one seperately).

I really enjoyed fleshing this one out....cheers all

Rochelle