Which do you think composers compose first - the End Credits, or the Concert versions of themes?

Lemme explain - Some people moan and grumble when (for example) John Williams simply cuts and pastes concert suites to make up his End Credits, much like what happened with TPM and, to a lesser extent, AOTC.

But isn't it more probable that the End Titles were composed first, and then the arrangement of the Themes in the End Credits are taken as the Concert versions.

This could very much be the case with TPM, since the 2 themes in the End credits are never fully developed as a single piece during the film.

(Another point that was raised was that after all, composers get paid to compose end credits, but not to compose Concert Suites)

In Williams' case, my understanding is that (if it's a thematic score), he'll write the main themes first (i.e. the "concert" versions). Then, he'll work BACKWARDS (he has discussed this in the past) through the film, using the theme less and less, deconstructing it so that when the movie is watched forwards, the theme seems to "grow" as the film progresses. (He did this most notably in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK.)

As for the end titles, well... I'm sure he just figures how best to reuse the themes - so that would probably be from the concert suites.

I'M AGREEING WITH YOU 100%, Marian !!
However, it's not only John Williams to do this (or NOT doing it ). The most recent experience (for me) with a very poor "cut & paste" job was on Alan Silvestri's THE MUMMY RETURNS track title (= End Credits, or a Suite, or whatever) where I was surprised that so good composer as Silvestri does so horrible job in creating such a "suite"...

I have always loved good old Main Titles and especially End Titles which were composed with care in the good old days. Maybe nowadays one problem for the poor End Credits music is that End Credits sequences are most often MAIN TITLES - really, because nowadays most movies DON'T have good old-fashioned "Main Titles" as movies used to have still in 70's and 80's (- nowadays there is just 3-5 "titles" in movie's so-called Main Titles, like "Movie Studio Presents...in association with A Totally Unknown Company...The Movie You're About to See if You Haven't Looked at Your Ticket by Any Chance"...and the we cut into the movie itself)

Seriously, I'd like to see - and hear - more movies like HEARTBEEPS and MOULIN ROUGE where the Main Title/End Title music has very little to do with the rest of the score - it gives somewhat a "Golden Era" touch to a film score, serving as an individual Overture...

Some of my Top Favorites are (from the top of my head) - and MUSICALLY speaking:
HEARTBEEPS End Credits naturally...
RETURN TO NEVERLAND Main Title
FATHER OF THE BRIDE Main Title
GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY Main Title & End Credits
HONEY, I SHRUNK THE KIDS Main Title & End Credits
HONEY, I BLEW UP THE KID End Credits ("That's All Folks")
YOUNG SHERLOCK HOLMES End Credits ("The Riddle Solved")
THE ROCKETEER End Credits ("Rocketeer to the Rescue") ...one of Horner's absolute BEST ...
WHAT LIES BENEATH End Credits
RETURN TO OZ End Credits ("Theme from Return to Oz")
GHOST Generique Fin (End Credits)
CITIZEN KANE End Cast (I know... )
MY FAIR LADY Exit Music (actually End Cast)
HOW TO STEAL A MILLION Main Title
FAMILY PLOT End Credits
AMAZING STORIES Main Title & End Title

...That's enough for favorites ...

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Originally posted by Ken S:
I have always loved good old Main Titles and especially End Titles which were composed with care in the good old days. Maybe nowadays one problem for the poor End Credits music is that End Credits sequences are most often MAIN TITLES - really, because nowadays most movies DON'T have good old-fashioned "Main Titles" as movies used to have still in 70's and 80's (- nowadays there is just 3-5 "titles" in movie's so-called Main Titles, like "Movie Studio Presents...in association with A Totally Unknown Company...The Movie You're About to See if You Haven't Looked at Your Ticket by Any Chance"...and the we cut into the movie itself)

KEN

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I agree. There really should be more main title sequences and wonderful main title cues. Some of my favorite marriages of imagery and music:

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Originally posted by jeffy:
Yeah, Danny Elfman has been very fortunate to work on films that have lengthy main titles.

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Mars Attacks! Can't forget that one!!