Everytime he reuse any theme, it's always a different cue specifically designed for that scene. Even on some piece that sounds exactly the same, it does need a tuned ear to hear the difference on the performance to be able to tell that it's not the exact same take reused over. Some of you may not be able to tell the difference, since you have to listen VERY carefullly. Anakin's music accompanying his bike ride, is a newly rescored cue, even though it sounds very similar to TPM, and it's not just the length that gives that information, it's the overall feel.

As discussed in another thread, there is a significant difference between Williams just reusing a theme (such as when Anakin is on the speeder bike and we hear 'Duel of the Fates'), and the exact same cue from TPM being tracked into a scene (as with the fight in the arena).

Trust us on this one.... it's been confirmed by multiple sources, and not all of us have hearing problems.

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Originally posted by SkyMakers:
Didn't we hear from a "source" in England that they recorded Duel of the Fates again? Apparently he was a good source because he sang in it.

Oh, well, maybe it is me that's not paying careful attention.

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Please keep up with the conversation - I'm not talking about the use of "Duel of the Fates" in AOTC. It's OBVIOUS that's a new recording; it's even on the CD. I'm talking about the use of action music from THE PHANTOM MENACE used in the arena sequence. Watch the movie again. Listen to the music in that scene. Compare it with the track on the CD.

Ya follow?

I did not notice any re-used music, then again, I was so into the movie. I'm going back this weekend, I pay attention to the music then.

You sound so certain. Which strong source/s did you obtain this information from? Mr. Williams or Mr. Lucas?

Also, no, offence, but I did keep up the conversation, because I mentioned the scene with Anakin riding his bike. Perhaps you missed it. No wonder you're talking about something else.

Yes, I will admit I have no incontrovertible PROOF that it's NOT a re-recording. However: given that the very scene in question has score written and recorded for it - and is on the CD - but NOT used in the film....... in conjuunction with the fact that everyone else seems to agree that it is from TPM (again, listen to it..... seriously).....

Just think about it.

As for the Anakin and his bike sequence... for the last time, yes, I agree with you - Williams just used the old THEME and recorded NEW MUSIC.

Dan

OK. Thanks.

I just wanted to learn away from opinions, that's all. Not that proofs are necessary for me to believe you, or not. There are too many opinions on message boards, posed as facts. Just sorting out the cobwebs.

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Originally posted by André Lux:

Who cares if they used music from the other movies? The only thing that matter is if it worked within the scene!

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So why hire Williams to write a score? Indeed, why hire a composer at all? Just have a music editor whip something together.

"Works within the scene" is a very low standard. Almost all film music, no matter how bad, meets that test.

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Originally posted by El Cid:
"Works within the scene" is a very low standard. Almost all film music, no matter how bad, meets that test.

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Oh, yeah sure... go listen to LADYHAWKE or THE PECEAMAKER (and anything with music by Hanzimmmer) or LEGEND (the Tangerine Nightmere version) etc...

Williams was hired to compose music for the movie (dăăăăăă... ). The director felt he should replace some cues with music from the previous movies.

The rest is history...

One reason for the tracking job MAY have been the sheer complexity of the sequence and its effects. As has happened with other fx films, these reels might simply not have been anywhere near ready to score. For my money, the only recycled music I could detect was in this sequence (even the quote of Yoda's theme on the conveyor belt felt new to me). I think the whole arena battle was being radically rethought and expanded right down to the wire (remember all the *NSync fuss followed by an assurance that they would suddenly be unrecognizable?) and Lucas & Co. simply did not allow themselves time to add new score.

Often effects-heavy films are not scored at once. FIRST KNIGHT was scored in two sessions about a month apart precisely because the final battle scene was still being worked out. Obviously, this was a far simpler scene to complete logistically so Jerry was able to go in and bring the score to a rousing climax (he also ended up recording the Main Tiles at the same time once the producers had decided how the opening credits would play against picture).

Now if the same thing happened to AOTC, then Williams MAY NEVER HAVE SCORED THESE SCENES (as I believe) and Lucas may simply have lost his window to have Williams work on them. Bear in mind the MINORITY REPORT comes very close on the heels of AOTC.

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Originally posted by Ed:
Now if the same thing happened to AOTC, then Williams MAY NEVER HAVE SCORED THESE SCENES (as I believe) and Lucas may simply have lost his window to have Williams work on them. Bear in mind the MINORITY REPORT comes very close on the heels of AOTC.

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yeah, but the funny thing is, there's music for that very sequence on the soundtrack.

on top of that, from a VFX standpoint, you don't just pull shots out of thin air. you have storyboards, and animatics - all of which were most likely edited into the rough cut that williams scored to. as such, it's highly DOUBTFUL that he didn't have SOMETHING to record music to - it just might not have been the FINAL vfx shot.

When I was at the SPIDER-MAN scoring session, there were a number of "unfinished" vfx shots.... but Elfman was still able to write and record music to those incomplete scenes.

So "scheduling" isn't really a valid excuse. Futzing with the editing - now THAT is an excuse.

Anyway, who knows? Obviously there WAS music for the early part of the arena battle, but I'll bet the rest of it until the sabre duel was a real work-in-progess until a VERY short time ago.

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Originally posted by Ed:
I'm saying there (probably) was SERIOUS futzing, Dan. That's my hunch.

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Yeah, I don't doubt that. But at the same time, it would be silly to question whether or not Williams even WROTE music for that scene, when it's on the CD..... and just not in the film.

How did you manage to get into the recording session of Spiderman?

Also, do you collect film score manuscript?

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Originally posted by SkyMakers:
How did you manage to get into the recording session of Spiderman?

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No, I don't collect manuscripts.

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Originally posted by SEBULBA:
Well, I guess the only people who can really tell us are Lucas or Williams. HELLO GUYS. ARE YOU OUT THERE? WE NEED ANSWERS PLEASE. To many people giving opinions on the matter.

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I don't think you're going to hear a comment from Williams just yet. He hasn't seen the film, but probably has heard about the music use by jow from friends and industry insiders.

Which poses a question: Do you think Williams already knows how his music is being used? If I'm not mistaken Ken Wannberg, a longtime collaborator, is music editor. Wouldn't he know how the music is being put in the film, and in turn might have informed Williams long ago? Or was Williams at some of the music editing sessions?

Which publication are you from?

Being a journalist, see if you can whip up a strong interview with Williams.

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Originally posted by dgoldwas:
Just wanted to resurrect this thread to make this final point. If anyone had any doubts about music from TPM and other sources being used in AOTC, this should HOPEFULLY put them to rest....
http://www.jwfan.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=57 &mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Dan

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Thanks for the link, Dan. And thanks to Takis for doing the leg work. Maybe this can even be expanded for an FSM article.

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Originally posted by SkyMakers:
Being a journalist, see if you can whip up a strong interview with Williams.

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Yeah - that would be cool! Good luck Jeffy!

Well, SkyM,
how do you then explain the duplicate tracks of "A Second Chance" on THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST soundtrack, "The Dance of the Witches" on THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK soundtrack, and Title Track on SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET soundtrack - plus various others ? I will eat my computer if these tracks on these specific soundtracks are not exactly the same ones (- I have pretty darn good ears).

...Just to stir the Williams pot again...

You are RIGHT that TONS of music has been tracked directly from TPM, no new recording, no new arrangement, just a simple cut-and-paste job.

However, you are WRONG that music on the soundtrack meant to underscore the final battle sequences was cut from the film and REPLACED with music from TPM. This is simply not the case.

It may very well be true that Williams DID write original music for the droid vs. clones battle, and that it was replaced in the film with TPM edits ... but such music, if it exists, did not appear on the soundtrack. I am 100% confident of this.

Track 12 is "Love Pledge and The Arena," and the first seven minutes were meant to underscore the monster battle and nothing else! The middle portion of this cue [2:38-5:55] has been cut out in the film, replaced by sparse use of what sounds like source percussion. The last few notes of the cue [6:53-6:57] have been chopped off. The rest of it -- the beginning of the cue and the end -- is still there, in the film. What's more, it's not hard to match up the CD with the video and get an almost perfectly timed underscore. In the film, the gap between the beginning and end of the monster fight music just happens to be the right length to squeeze in the unused music heard on the CD. Coincidence?

Now, at around the 7-minute mark of Track 12, there IS an EDIT. The music SKIPS AHEAD to "Going After Dooku," which can be heard in the film after the Federation Sphere crashes and burns. Music for the droid vs. Jedi battles, if it existed, would take place BETWEEN these two cues.

Conclusion: while it is probable that Williams composed music for the final droid vs. clone battle, and which was replaced by TPM music, we can't use the soundtrack CD to argue this position!

Well, maybe we can. Since there is an edit at the 7-minute mark without resolving the monster fight cue, and since the film cuts even what ending we do get off prematurely -- instead, giving us TPM music as Mace Windu arrives to crash the party -- we can make an educated guess that Williams' music was designed to continue at least a little further into the post-monster scenes. That's about the best we can do.

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Originally posted by Beatty:
Thanks for the link, Dan. And thanks to Takis for doing the leg work. Maybe this can even be expanded for an FSM article.

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You're welcome. And it will be. Or should I say, it has been.