MUSIC.

...Doesn't proper music usually have a distinct melody..?

Just today I realized that I really do prefer MELODIES, not just notes put together in "random order".

Now, I may be stoned to death again by saying this, but it was Howard Shore's LOTR:FOTR which made me to realize this thing - all the time I kept waiting for a distinct melody but none such thing ever surfaced (although there are some "themes" in this score)... Anyway, the LOTR score's orchestral turbulence brought Alan Silvestri into my mind, and soon I realized that I was humming Silvestri's theme from JUDGE DREDD rather than Shore's own music. Why? Simply because Silvestri's turbulence very often has a distinct MELODY - which, unfortunately, Shore's turbulence on LOTR doesn't have...

And as I'm going through all my film score favorites, whether horror, drama, comedy or fantasy, they all possess distinct MELODIES. They are music. They all have hummable qualities.

Am I a complete nitwit because I want film music to be MUSIC, to have that hummable quality in it ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken S:
Simply because Silvestri's turbulence very often has a distinct MELODY - which, unfortunately, Shore's turbulence on LOTR doesn't have...

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Have you listened to Shore's score much? Because I hear a lot of melodic stuff in there, and yet I keep hearing other people lament the "lack of any melody"!

Also - are you complaining about the music on the ALBUM or in the FILM? Because it worked damn well in the film, and ultimately that's the whole purpose of the music's existance. If it doesn't work (for you) as an album, then that's too bad..... but the purpose of the music was to serve the film - not you and your CD player.

Form yes; melody no. the man could pack quite a whollop with just 14 bars of music.

Shore's score is BRIMMING with melody.

I can't for the life of me understand why some people feel it's so static.

First Harry Potter and now this?? Our ideas are slipping away from each other.

Short answer: Film music does not necessarily need a melody to be effective. Cases in point: Planet of the Apes, Shore's own The Cell (best score of 2000, BTW). Lord of the Rings DID need melodic music to be a successful film score, and I think Shore provided it magnificently. So in the end, I disagree with the very basis of your argument.

I have felt that in the past few years we’ve not had enough melody in our scores, and
that too many composers just choose (or are directed) to use atmospheric
underscoring.

As Gae said, Herrmann could hit melody no problem...fact!

As Joan said, as James said, er?

....I'm lost, I got bought one too many Whisky's tonight

I'll return tomorrow and see if what I wrote is of the upmost foolishness!?

GZOICKS!!

...where's the 'I'm hammered icon'?

While Herrmann's music is often melodic in nature he rarely uses "melodies" in his scores, in the way fx. Williams would. Rather, Herrmann builds his music around motifs and small cells of music which he can then use in different orchestral settings. Also, when Herrmann does have more direct melodic material at hand, he rarely developes it in any specific direction - most commonly seen in his suspense scores which are often static in nature.
It has been said more than once that Herrmann "couldn't write a tune". I think a lot of his music proves he could (fx. his televion opera "A Christmas Carol" which has some very hummable themes) but the fact is that he didn't use them often and when he did, he didn't do it in the manner a film composer normally would.
In the end though, this entire discussion depends on how you difine "melody" in music. I don't think a universal definition will ever be found.

SFT

SFT

quote:

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Originally posted by Gae:
otherwise it is just chaotic noise (maybe a modern trend in scoring?)

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Aside from an utterly gorgeous main theme performed on a piano (which I could listen to over and over and never get tired of it), I found Don Davis' music in VALENTINE to fall into just the category you mention - chaotic noise.

Dan

As to horror scores; in most cases, yes, they will be tonal no matter how chaotic they sound. Elfman's The Frightners is about as chaotic and dissonant as a score can get, but dissonance isn't the same as atonality.
The only horror music I can think of that has absolutely no tonal center is Penderecki's "Polymorphia" which Kubrick used in The Shining. But even that is not a piece of film music but a work of the avant garde for the concert hall.

SFT

NP: Basic Instinct, Jerry Goldsmith *****/*****

quote:

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Originally posted by SFT:
Elfman's The Frightners is about as chaotic and dissonant as a score can get

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.... and yet THE FRIGHTENERS still had numerous distinct themes and melodies.

Dan

Or maybe I'm wrong. The Satan Bug, an incredibly conventionally realized film, got a top-notch avant garde score from Goldsmith way back then. So why not now? Goldenthal did good with Final Fantasy, but I can't think of too many like that today.

With postmodernism, nowadays basically anything goes in virtually all areas of art.

a theme can be whatever the composers decides it to be; whether a rhythm in the percussion, or something based on diatonic scales.

Graham, I'm guessing you are referring to The Omen? Goldsmith's score wasn't avant garde for its time - not as far as music in general is concerned, but for film perhaps it was. I don't hear anything particularly "avant garde" in The Omen, considering when it was written. Perhaps they should have contacted Penderecki and asked him to write something similar to the St. Luke Passion for the film?

But, to make my point a little bit clearer, here are some examples which I regard as "melodies with hummable quality" - I know it has something to do with rhythm, but again theoretically-speaking I am aware I may talk a lot of nonsense here...

I was referring to Silvestri's orchestral turbulence (yes, the "action" music) as the perfect example of what I think as "melodic" turbulence. Please DO correct me if you disagree that the following selections do not contain "hummable, clear melodies":

SHATTERED (TROUBLES) (Silvestri)
Klein's Shot / The Chase

JUDGE DREDD (Silvestri) Council Chaos

ERASER (Silvestri)
"She's In" / Cyrez Break In / Kruger Escapes

PREDATOR 2 ...do I really have to mention...?

WHAT LIES BENEATH (Silvestri) The Getaway

...and some of my other "Melodic" Action Favorites (I have talked about some of these and the above-mentioned earlier on the thread "Gothic Symphonies"...)

Disney's CINDERELLA (Oliver Wallace & Paul J. Smith)
Midnight Chase (or The Stroke of Midnight)

YEAR OF THE COMET (Hummie Mann) Fight on the Lake
(...is very similar to CINDERELLA's "Midnight Chase")

RETURN TO OZ (David Shire) The Flight in the Storm

JAWS 3-D (Alan Parker) "The Shark's Gonna Hit Us!"

MARY SHELLEY'S FRANKENSTEIN (Patrick Doyle)
William! / The Creation / (and lots of other stuff)

FINAL ANALYSIS (George Fenton)
Front Titles / The Bay Marina

BORDELLO OF BLOOD (Chris Boardman)
Generator Plant / Last Laser

PETER BENCHLEY'S THE BEAST (Don Davis)
Squid Thinking / The Seafox Attack & Whip Finds Mike /
The Squid Takes the Bait / Squid Death Finale

...plus many many others
I hope this made my point a little more clearer.

Now, I say it again that I maybe a little wrong "theoretically-speaking" - these may not be MELODIES in the theoretic sense - BUT all the above-mentioned selections DO have one thing in common: They are pure MUSIC with hummable quality - at least for me

Just tonight I saw Behind Enemy Lines with Don Davis' score. The score had plenty of great ideas and one-time-use-only melodies, but just like The Matrix, it had no themes woven throughout it to hold everything together. I want a "good guy" theme, a "bad guy" theme, or a theme for whatever the hell shows up repeatedly in the movie with some sort of importance. I understand some movie makers and composers seem to prefer themeless music. My own personal feeling is that a score should have at least one common theme for continuity.

$.02

Themes are usually a very significant and important part of any score, but there are some cases where texture and a distinctive style are more interesting, and serve the purpose of the film more effectively. The Matrix and The Cell are two perfect recent examples where each score had a voice and sound unique to itself that served the film just as effectively--if not even better--as what would generally be considered thematic material.

it HAD to be surreal, just like the visuals.

As far as the whole "tune" thing is concerned, I personally don't need a theme in a score whatsoever. Listening to a score such as Shore's Se7en requirers more of an effort from the listener, but can be just as interesting an experience as anything by Horner or Williams - and certainly just as emotional.

SFT

***POSSIBLE SPOILER***
Marian, I did see SE7EN when it initially premiered - and unfortunately for me it was as unimaginative as SILENCE OF THE LAMBS. No surprises, really. One of the most hilarious moments of SE7EN happened when the guys found the corpse tied to the bed - at that point I thought in my mind how delightful it would be if the corpse jumped out on their faces - and I laughed my head off when the corpse actually did it... (while the rest of the audience did seem to be shocked for such a "surprising" thing). Another thing was that only after seeing about 25 minutes of the movie I knew how it was going to end - and I sincerely believe that it WASN'T the director's nor the screenwriter's primary attempt... Anyway, the music, as also on SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, unfortunately didn't have any effect on me because I seem to prefer those MELODIES and theme development - - (and I just don't like movies which are Art movies only for the sake of the Art, not the story).

Anyway, I'd like to remind you all - as I say also on my profile - that I really DO like film music that fits perfectly into films and supports storytelling most perfectly ...BUT when film music does all this and STILL manages to be MUSIC, it is in my opinion True film music.

SFT