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      Music Needs a Melody ??? (Page 2)

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    Topic:   Music Needs a Melody ???

     Graham Watt
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    Maybe the final nail in the coffin for this interesting thread, but, although I agree that non-melodic or non-tuneful or whatever-they're-called scores are right for many films, I'd hate to watch (or listen to) The Magnificent Seven or Ben-Hur with an ambient score!

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    posted 01-03-2002 02:43 PM PT (US)     

     Marian Schedenig
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    True. It's the same with Planet of the Apes though, I can't imagine that film with a melodic score (I'm always talking about the original film by the way, I haven't seen or heard the remake)

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    posted 01-03-2002 03:29 PM PT (US)     

     Ken S
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    Graham, maybe I'm now too tired to understand complicated English
    but surely you don't mean that THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN and BEN-HUR
    DON'T have melodies..?!!

    KEN
    who obviously doesn't like too complicated things

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    posted 01-03-2002 03:38 PM PT (US)     

     SCimmerian
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    Jared, wow how insightful you are. You really don't know much about film music, so why offer anything at all.According to you then the history of film music is null and void.Just forget the hundreds of scores written by the masters of the craft; Steiner,Korngold,Waxman,Newman, Herrmann,Rozsa,Williams, Goldsmith,Bernstein,North,Barry, etc. All wrote melodic scores, as most scores are melodic, as is most music. duh.

    [Message edited by PeterK on 01-03-2002]

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    posted 01-03-2002 07:56 PM PT (US)     

     James
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    What are you talking about, S? Jared's post made perfect sense to me, and there's nothing there that nullifies the whole "history of film music." Unless I read him wrong, he wasn't saying that music shouldn't be melodic, he was merely saying that establishing a theme isn't the first goal of a film socre.

    If I may quote from Mr. Aaron Copland:

    quote:
    Here briefly is listed a number of ways in which music serves the screen:

    1. Creating a more convincing atmosphere of time and place. Not all Hollywood composers bother about this nicety. Too often, their scores are interchangeable; a thirteenth century Gothic drama and a hard-boiled modern battle of the sexes get similar treatment. The lush symphonic texture of late nineteenth century music remains the dominating influence. But there are exceptions. Recently, the higher grade horse-opera has begun to have its own
    musical flavor, mostly a folk song derivate.
    2. Underlining psychological refinements--the unspoken thoughts of a character or the unseen implications of a situation. Music can play upon the emotions of the spectator, sometimes counterpointing the thing seen with an aural image that implies contrary of the ting seen. This is not as subtle as it
    sounds. A well-placed dissonant chord can stop an audience cold in the middle of a sentimental scene, or a calculated wood-wind passage can turn what appears to be a solemn moment into a belly-laugh.
    3. Serving as a kind of neutral background filler. This is really the music one isn't supposed to hear, the sort that helps to fill the empty spots between pauses in a conversation. It's the movie composer's most ungrateful task. But at times, though no one else may notice, he will get private satisfaction from the thought that music of little intrinsic value, through professional
    manipulation, has enlivened and made more human the deathly pallor of a screen shadow. This is hardest to do, as any film composer will attest, when the neutral filler type of music must weave its way underneath dialogue.
    4. Building a sense of continuity. The picture editor knows better than anyone how serviceable music can be in tying together a visual medium which is, by its very nature, continually in danger of falling apart. One sees this most obviously in montage scenes where the use of a unifying musical idea may save the quick flashes of disconnected scenes from seeming merely chaotic.
    5. Underpinning the theatrical buil-up of a scene, and rounding it off with a sense of finality. The first instance that comes to mind is the music that blares out at the end of a film. Certain producers have boasted their picture's lack of a musical score, but I never saw or heard of a picture that ended in silence.


    Notice that he didn't include "Giving the audience a melody to hum." I'm not trying to twist Copland's words to say that themes aren't important, because I (and I'm sure he would) think they are. I'm just saying melody, per se, is not the most important part of a film score.

    Kirk

    [Message edited by James on 01-03-2002]

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    posted 01-03-2002 08:28 PM PT (US)     

     SCimmerian
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    Jimmy I stand by what I wrote.The Great film scores of the past from the masters of the craft were built on melodies or themes, that were the transformed, and used in different variations through the film.Jerry Goldsmith to this day continues to write scores like this-He has said that he creates a main theme or melody first and then molds it into different ways.Melody is what captures an audiences heart.The Lord of the Rings score is full of themes and melodies that represent different places and characters,Howard Shore himself has said that he approched this project more as an opera than a film score,with all the choral work.Yea you can have a score that does not have melody and what you get is dreck or droning electronic garbage.And if music is going to have any beauty , it will have melody.

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    posted 01-03-2002 11:40 PM PT (US)     

     perfpitch
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    Music wi' a MELODY??

    What ever gave you dat crazy idea? All de gangsta rappers a' gonna come to yo' house an' slap you upside de head fo' sayin' dat!

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    posted 01-04-2002 01:23 AM PT (US)     

     Graham Watt
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    Right, Ken, you got me wrong! Too many New Year beers, eh? I meant that I wouldn't NOT like to NOT listen to BEN-HUR or THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN with non-NON thematic scores, or the opposite of the other way round. You get me now?

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    posted 01-04-2002 03:52 PM PT (US)     

     El Cid
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    Maybe da damn final nail in da bonebox 4 dis interestin' thraid, but, although I agree dat non-melodic o' non-tuneful o' whateva' they be-called sco's be right 4 many films, I'd hate t' watch (down low, o' listen t') Da Magnificent Seven o' Ben-Hur wit' some ambient sco'! F**k dat s**t.

    [Message edited by El Cid on 01-04-2002]

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    posted 01-04-2002 05:48 PM PT (US)     

     Jared Cowing
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    The first and foremost point of a film is to SERVE THE FILM- not the soundtrack. The movie is the entire point the score is being written- if it gets too melodic, it may defeat the entire purpose.

    Odd how my previous post was interpreted as offensive and and outrageous. Perhaps I should refrain from making any input?

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    posted 01-04-2002 05:57 PM PT (US)     

     Jared Cowing
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    When I read my post again, it looked like I missed a point (I'm sure I missed many, but I caught another one, anyway-)
    If a song has a distinct point that sounds very good, and it is because of a certain harmony being struck at a certain time, can you hum a harmony? I don't think composers should chain themselves down with the need to make every good part completely hummable.

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    posted 01-04-2002 06:04 PM PT (US)     

     Howard L
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    "The first and foremost point of a film is to SERVE THE FILM- not the soundtrack."

    Yup.

    "I don't think composers should chain themselves down with the need to make every good part completely hummable."

    They shouldn't, and they don't. Not an issue. Fact is that maybe the best/most respected/favored film composers not only create music that really makes a great motion picture experience but the music also makes for a worthwhile listening session on its own. A bonus--and thus we film music purists get the best of both worlds!



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    posted 01-05-2002 01:42 PM PT (US)     

     Bill R. Myers
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    Recently re-watched The Godfather saga on DVD.

    Rota was definitely one of cinema's finest tunesmiths. Every piece is treated melodically, and the long, developed themes are beguillingly rueful. (Although one theme is overused during the Sicilian scene during the first film.) Anyone know which theme made the score ineligible for the Oscar?

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    posted 01-05-2002 04:18 PM PT (US)     

     Ken S
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    Graham, too many New Year's beers for...WHOM, eh ??

    It wasn't NOT me because on on the first second of this year NOT the previous year I wasn't NOT drinking any beer, but but Sprite which isn't NOT beer and beer I don't NOT even like NOT, at all NOT. Champagne, which witch isn't NOT beer, I DO like, NOT the witch - besides witches don't NOT have NOThing to do with New Year (except THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK or THE WITCHES which ones I didn't NOT listen on New Year's Eve NOR NOT even Adam) - but I wasn't NOT drinking even champagne on the Eve NOR the Adam, only Sprite - on the night when I wasn't NOT listening any film music NOT at all.

    I always start messing around in my own threads

    Smilin'
    KEN

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    posted 01-05-2002 05:22 PM PT (US)     

     Ken S
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    And, you all may continue nailing my coffin lid tighter - you forgot to make sure that I WAS IN THERE because I'm not.

    The Guy with 111 Home Ghosts,
    KEN

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    posted 01-05-2002 05:28 PM PT (US)     

     Graham Watt
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    Ken, so, in a nutshell, and in plain English, you weren't not drinking beer. Which means you were. I rest my case.

    And posshibly de lassht nail in de corfin, I repeat that film music doesn't HAVE to have a melody, but some films which COULD have a melody and DON'T would be better if they DID!

    OKAY DOKAY?

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    posted 01-06-2002 02:23 PM PT (US)     

     Ken S
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    "Which means you were. I rest my case."

    Graham, why so serious ?

    Besides, you old funny guy you,
    you didn't read close enough, because I said
    I was BUT drinking Sprite which isn't NOT beer
    - thus it IS beer, at least FOR ME it has almost the same effect,
    which was what I meant when I was enjoying it also with some champagne on Eve, not Adam.
    You should pay some attention to these things
    before claiming I drank only beer

    Please don't rest your case, at least not here,
    because nowadays all personal belongings should not be left unattended.

    KEN

    [Message was also having some beer when it was left unattended with Ken and Graham and some crackers - thus it had to be straightened up]

    [Message edited by Ken S on 01-06-2002]

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    posted 01-06-2002 03:23 PM PT (US)     
     

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