1) Composers who KNOW how they can create a certain sound.
2) Composers who draw notes on sheets, but don't have the slightest idea how it is going to sound like.
3) Composers who know what they want their music to sound like, but may not know all the tricks of the trade.

Composers # 1 usually do their own orchestrations.
Composers # 2 really NEED orchestrators.
Composers # 3 are good friends with orchestrators.

From what I know about the issue, and frankly that isn't too much, what Ken S said seems to be pretty much the case.

Now John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith obviously know how to orchestrate themselves even though they use orchestrators. From what I hear however , the orchestrators they do use are nothing more than copyist since the original sketches that Williams or Goldsmith produce are so detailed, there isn't much more for the orchestrator to do.

Williams in particular does not list an orchestrator because he believes he is the one who really created everything. He likened it to a painter who created all the colors and nuances and the orchestrator simply executes it all.

Then there are the ones like Ennio Morricone who always orchestrates himself or even the late Bernhard Herrman, who actually hated the practice of a composer having an orchestrator and even had a argument about it with Jerry Goldsmith (at least so I have read).

Zimmer probably needs an orchestrator, for it is doubtful if he really had an idea what anything will sound like unless it comes out of his keyboard.

Horner has orchestrated quite a few of his own scores himself as well, although that may be easy for him since he is in the copy/paste mode (but I do like his music and if he chooses to make his living that way, as long as the scores are ok, I don't mind it).

Then we have orchestrators who are composing themselves and use orchestrators when they do get an assignment. Obviously they know how to orchestrate themselves, but time is so scarce these days in film production that an orchestrator really helps a lot.

I'm gonna shut up now.

Scott

Elfman knows he can't conduct or orchestrate, but he can come up with some excellent themes and ideas which, when given to those who have the training to translate those ideas into what you hear in his film scores, the result is quite impressive. Remember, he started in the avant-garde band Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo. He has never claimed to be of the ability of a Jerry Goldsmith or Ennio Morricone, but he does know what he wants it to sound like, as Ken states in type 3 above.

Fact: Elfman presently uses fewer orchestrators then John Debney or Marco Beltrami.

Pet peeve - posts that put words into a composer's mouth.

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Fact: Elfman presently uses fewer orchestrators then John Debney or Marco Beltrami.

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This doesn't mean anything except Elfman's orchestrator's are better than Debney's or Beltrami's. I am a big fan of Elfman, but like Zimmer, I wonder why after doing what they do for so long they never orchestrate their own scores.
I mean, it's not rocket science.

...but anyway.

Np: Waterworld (James Newton Howard) *****/*****

Jz

you have to know ranges of instruments, the keys they're in, the capabilities of said instruments, what instrumental groups sound good together/ bad together, timbre, texture, etc. All this before you can even think about writing anything down.

It's just not that easy.

Say, you want a certain phrase on the violins.

okay, but do you want them muted? do you want the flutes to double the melodic line? what kind of flutes?
If you want a darker sound do you have the violas play the same notes, or do you have them an octave lower with the celli?
do you want the violins to play together?
or do you want only the first violins to play the melody while the seconds split the harmony? how about a soloist playing the part instead with accompaniment from the rest of the strings?

if the music's mine and I need it fleshed out and parts assigned in rapid fire, then I'll hire who I can to help.
If the music's MINE then it's MINE, whether or not some orchestrator placed a note in the second trumpet part.

Elfman does a good thing and surrounds himself with the very best people. I should also point out that his Edward Scissorhands commentary is also very interesting. He seems, on my limited exposure to him, to be a very humble man.

I don't think that orchestration is very complex. Yes, you have to think about what instruments to use and how, but it really only involves thinking, and thinking in a very (Imho) subjective way.

The comment Herrmann made about composing and orchestrating going hand in hand is one I think I agree with. My view is that a good composer knows the instrument ranges, techniques, etc, just like a scientist knowing the periodic table of the elements.
Thats not to say however, that if you don't know the table you're a bad scientist, but if you've been working with chemicals and whatnot for 17 years, it's high time you learned if you don't know already.
It's my opinion (at this stage) that orchestration should be a composer's second language and if a composer has been working with an orchestra and orchestrators for over 10 years then he should be able to every now and again pull off and entire score by himself.

I remember a few months back in a thread about Elfman and his orchestrators, from what I remember, HRocco said that he knew someone who knew some of Elfman's orchestrators and that Elfman said what instruments he wanted where.
Why doesn't he learn to write it on manuscript?

I understand when composers use orchestrators ocassionally, but when they use them always I sometimes begin to feel like I'm being cheated.
How much of what I'm hearing is actually by the composer?

I think I heard something similar to this as far as conducting is concerned. If I am not mistaken, Jerry Goldsmith actually conducted the Alien score himself, but because Newman (I think that was his name, I am not at home so I can't check), was under contract his name was listed as conductor.

To clarify, I believe Mr. Herrmann's feelings related to the major impact not just the music but the orchestrations themselves have on the motion picture aesthetic. And that was what it was all about to him. Yeah, it could be construed as a pig-headed vision thing. For him it was a question of artistic integrity and can anyone deny that his was a most accomplished integrity? Think of his music as it was heard in each specific film. It was his, it was the way it should have sounded, it was right. I agree there is no harm in sharing the credit (and most surely orchestrators have not gotten enough credit). But when you are as in-tune with the film as Herrmann was...I mean, his music became inseparable from the visual and that might not have been the case if it was in another orchestrator's hands.

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Originally posted by John Zimmer:
Another question springs to mind. Are there certain composers that only write main piece of music like the main melody and then the orchestrators come in and fill in the rest? Danny Elfman pherhaps, but are there any others?

Jz

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I don't think Elfman, but look at your last name.

Scott

Np: The NBC Nightly New (John Williams)

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Originally posted by Scott:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by John Zimmer:
[b]Another question springs to mind. Are there certain composers that only write main piece of music like the main melody and then the orchestrators come in and fill in the rest? Danny Elfman pherhaps, but are there any others?

Jz<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think Elfman, but look at your last name.

Scott

[/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by HadrianD:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Scott:
[b] <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by John Zimmer:
[b]Another question springs to mind. Are there certain composers that only write main piece of music like the main melody and then the orchestrators come in and fill in the rest? Danny Elfman pherhaps, but are there any others?

Jz<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think Elfman, but look at your last name.

Scott

[/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back it up with facts, man. The guy writes everything in his studio. He's the orchestrator of his score because he choose the instruments, tempi, timbre, etc. His orchestrators, prominently Bruce Fowler, just takes the what's written on the computer and translate it to the paper, flesh out the parts so that the orchestra can actually play it. Crimson Tide was orchestrated but the symphony couldn't play it because it was out of their range most of the time.
Back your statement up with fact man.[/B]

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Pearl Harbor: 15 minutes of music by Hans Zimmer, the rest by others. Now, I know this from someone who has quite some insight connections. Believe it or not, no reason to get all bend out of shape dude. Take a chill pill and nap.

Scott

"This is an issue which seems to have a fairly simple answer, especially if you look at the real-life examples. Herrmann was not only a brilliant film-music composer, but an original when it came to orchestration. There simply is no one who can re-orchestrate Herrmann and come up with a better job. So far as other composers go, there definitely are composers who need to be orchestrated by others. Believe it or not, Chopin's orchestral works were arranged by others; Debussy often orchestrated his own works, but sometimes handed them over to others (his saxophone concerto is an example). When talking about the musical theatre of this century, and then film, the job of the composer is quite often separate from the orchestrator (or the "arranger" as it is put in contracts).
Richard Rogers couldn't orchestrate to save his soul, nor could Jerome Kern, or Harold Rome. Stephen Sondheim probably can, but knows that it is better and more efficiently done by Jonathan Tunick. There is no shame associated with this at all: it simply is one way to compose and have the work be arranged. The problem of course, is that you never hear anyone discuss "the oboe passages in Richard Rogers" or something like that. The very orchestration becomes secondary or tertiary to the music. I think one reason Harold Rome's music is not played more (and it is quite good, witness his WISH YOU WERE HERE and FANNY)--is that they were abominably orchestrated, and should be redone from top to bottom.

A composer such as Kurt Weill was a master at both composition and orchestration, and very seldom can you separate the two efforts in his work: and yet, when it came time to write a jitterbug (Full Moon & Starry-Eyed, from STREET SCENE), he handed it over to an adept arranger who made it into an organic, jazzy work that is the better work than Kurt could have done. There is some discussion also as to whether his TSCHAIKOWSKY number from LADY IN THE DARK was written by Sylvia Fine.

In any case, yes, it is vital to have the composer orchestrate, if it's part of his vision. If it isn't, then it makes no difference."

By z-jmucci

Couldnīt have said it better myself!

Also, as far as Elfman is concerned, I think this excerpt of a past interview should clear a few things up:

"I use orchestrators, not arrangers. The difference may seem subtle. but it's not," he (Elfman) explains. "The orchestrator's job is to take music which has been clearly written and balance it for the size orchestra that has been designated. Steve Bartek has been my primary orchestrator on almost every film I've done. He never changes a melody, he doesn't add counterpoint, he does not change or add harmonies. That's the composer's job. He will elect what instrumentation might best express what I'm trying to convey in terms of doubling melodies and dividing the parts of the string section so they can be used most effectively. I don't want to
minimize this job, it's very important. It's
time-consuming and I, Iike most composers, depend on our orchestrator to complete the final stage of the scoring. John Williams uses orchestrators and he certainly doesn't need to. Prokofiev used orchestrators, though he certainly didn't need to. I use orchestrators for the same reason." To give
specific examples, if Elfman wrote three parts for strings, Bartek will decide which individual players will play which note to best balance the orchestra. He might also write out more orchestral parts than are eventually used; for example, the oboe music might include lines from the flute part,
so that even though the oboist is not expected to play, his music will include the flute lines in case it is deemed necessary for him or her to "double" (also play) it. It's simply easier to have it all
written in advance than to have to rush and have the copyist scribble out new parts on the stage. "We may have the first pass of a cue over-orchestrated, and then have to tacit parts, but better that than under-orchestrated," he explains.

The orchestrator is helpful before the recording, as well as during it. "I have a tendency to overwrite, as you're well aware, and Steve is very helpful in finding train-wrecks before we get to the scoring stage. When I'm moving very fast, he'll be able to help me, like 'tell me where I ****ed up by laying it on too dense.' Sometimes Steve will call me up, he'll say, 'Your melody is down there in this very loud section, I think you've got to make a decision between what the trombones are playing or where the melody is.'"

In two rare cases. Elfman has delegated a cue of a score to an outside composer, just to finish on time, Jonathan Sheffer wrote the helicopter music in Darkman and Shirley Walker did one of the climactic action cues in Nightbreed. These resulted from Elfman knowing he could write 63 minutes of a 70 minute score in the time allotted, for example and delegating the other 7, often for particularly noisy, sound-effects laden cues he didn't want to deal with, to the
outside musician. "The few times that I've asked orchestrators to do an arrangement and take a melody I've written and turn it into an original piece of score, I've always given them composing credit," he states. (For proof, see the end credits of the respective films.) "That same philosophy
applied in many films today would leave very long and embarrassing end credits."
(..........)
"There's a big bitter contingent of people out there who feel like their place is being robbed by people like me," states Elfman the composer, forced back into self-reflexive mode and still paying for the career-defining error of admitting he has no formal education. "The most annoying thing
about composers is their inability to accept the possibility that one could be self-taught. That doesn't exist in any other field in film. A director doesn't need to go to film school and no one will question him. But a composer cannot be a composer doing their own music without going through
formal musical training. If that's what they think, fine, I don't give a ****. The fact that there are a lot of composers that on their own would be better orchestrators than me, that's great. I think a good proportion of the composers working out there are really just orchestrators, and haven't a
****ing clue what to do with a melody or how to use it or how to do variations on a theme; and/or they're songwriters who do what I'm accused of doing, although I don't, which is just coming up with melodies and hiring a team to adapt it into a score."

Thatīs all folks!

Np: Pearl Harbor

I have learned so much from your post up there. If you ever leave like u did for such a long time again, I will search and destroy your butt.

Thanks dude.

Outstanding.
Let me add my thanks.

SFT

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Originally posted by SFT:
Well, thanks guys, but just remember I didnīt write any of this. Just though it would be interesting for you to read.

SFT

NP: Planet of the Apes, Danny Elfman *****/*****

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...and that's why we thank you. For sharing SFT, for sharing.

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Originally posted by SFT:
[B]Well, thanks guys, but just remember I didnīt write any of this.
B]

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WHAT?! Well then what a moron.

But seriously there are a few good composers over at filmtracks.com none here though. HA Ha just kidding.