Vengence at whatever cost? Am I really sharing these boards with some people who feel this way?!

Thankfully, the leaders of the free world, most notably the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, have good heads on their shoulders. In George Bush's very powerful address to congress this evening, the word "vengeance" was never even hinted at. A great speech it was.

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

From the lakes of Minnesota
To the hills of Tennessee
Across the plains of Texas
From sea to shining sea
From Detroit down to Houston
And New York to LA
Well there's pride in every American heart
And its time we stand and say

That I'm proud to be an American
Where at least I know I'm free
And I won't forget the men who died
Who gave that right to me
And I gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today
Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God bless the USA

And I'm proud to be an American
Where at least I know I'm free
And I won't forget the men who died
Who gave that right to me
And I gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today
Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God bless the USA

"God Bless The USA"
-Lee Greenwood

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Paddon:
And I'm proud to be an American

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This time I have to agree with him.
America is indeed the most beautiful continent of all. We have the South America, the Central America and, at last, the North America.

Althought "pride" wouldn't be the right thing to feel about it. More like "happynes" to live in such a wonderful place.

But let me sing about it...:

(spoken)
The world today is absolutely cracked.
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There's fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing, and it's senseless, and that's why...

(singing)
I like chinese,
I like chinese,
They only come up to you knees,
Yet they're always friendly and they're ready to to please.

I like chinese,
I like chinese,
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today,
You'd better learn to like them, that's what I say.

I like chinese,
I like chinese,
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute, and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.

I like chinese food,
The waiters never are rude,
Think the many things they've done to impress,
There's maoism, taoism, eging and chess.

I like chinese,
I like chinese,
I like their tiny little trees,
Their zen, their ping-pong, their ying and yang-eze.

I like chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confusious taught,
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The chinese will survive us all without any doubt.

So, I like chinese,
I like chinese,
They only come up to you knees,
Yet they're wise, and they're witty, and they're ready to please

Wo, I chumba run,
Wo, I chumba run,
Wo, I chumba run,
Ne hamma, Ne hamma, Ne hamma chi chen.

I like chinese,
I like chinese,
They're food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine and li-chese

I like chinese,
I like chinese,
I like their tiny little trees,
Their zen, their ping-pong, their yin and yang-eze

I like chinese,
I like chinese,
(fade out....)

Title: I like Chinese
From: Monty Python's Contractual Obligation Album
Transcribed By: Daniel Rich

quote:

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Originally posted by PeterK:
Timmer:

Thankfully, the leaders of the free world, most notably the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, have good heads on their shoulders.

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Bush and Blair have good heads on their shoulders???
On the outside maybe. Both look rather empty on the inside.
Maggie had a good head. So did Alan Keyes, but he'll never become president.
Bush and Blair have less in the head than that pumpkin I cooked last sunday.
Then again, these days the situation is not that much different elsewhere... (eg: Chirac, Chrétien, Putin, etc.)

quote:

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In George Bush's very powerful address to congress this evening, the word "vengeance" was never even hinted at. A great speech it was.

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quote:

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[/b]
Down with vengeance. Let freedom ring.[/B]

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I have never had a high view of British Prime Minister Blair. But those negative feelings I've had of him are now irrelevant as I feel the need to applaud him for his display of loyalty and friendship to the US, continuing the grand tradition of FDR-Churchill and Reagan-Thatcher.

When I think of how all of FDR's opponents wisely put aside all their earlier criticisms after December 7, 1941 I can only shake my head in sadness at how much of a sicker society we have become in that the modern day equivalents of America First, somehow think they are doing anything positive in their hate-filled remarks toward our leaders.

Imagine
John Lennon[/B][/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by wistiti:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by PeterK:
[b]Timmer:

Thankfully, the leaders of the free world, most notably the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, have good heads on their shoulders.
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bush and Blair have good heads on their shoulders???
On the outside maybe. Both look rather empty on the inside.
Maggie had a good head. So did Alan Keyes, but he'll never become president.
Bush and Blair have less in the head than that pumpkin I cooked last sunday.
Then again, these days the situation is not that much different elsewhere... (eg: Chirac, Chrétien, Putin, etc.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>
In George Bush's very powerful address to congress this evening, the word "vengeance" was never even hinted at. A great speech it was.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup. Give a medal to whoever wrote it. 'cause it sure wasn't the bushboy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>[/b]
Down with vengeance. Let freedom ring.[/B]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more.[/B]

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Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but what I'd like to know is where are your facts? Is it a fact that Blair and Bush don't have much up there or is it your opinion? It is your opinion, for you don't know these two individuals, you haven't discussed issues with them, heck you probably haven't even met them. Sure, I am not sure if they are super intelligent, but I don't accuse and I certainly don't put myself above these two leaders as if I was the newest edition of Albert Einstein.

All politicians, well, almost all , have speech writers. Unfortunately they are a tad busier than you and thus don't necessarily have the time to write all of their speeches. Yet, as earlier stated, the speech represents what they want to say. A speech must also be delivered in a good way, and while I don't think Bush is the greatest speaker in the world, he certainly did a great job last night.

It would be interesting Wisiti to see you run for office, to see how you would deal with this situation, to see if you could count on the support of your people. It's easy to be somewhere in the wild wilderness of beautiful Canada and critize, easy to make people look stupid or less important, or to belittle them,especially in a time like this. It is easy, but it doesn't make you look good. Not at all. But then again, this is only Scott speaking and since you have probably noticed my many spelling mistakes and my skrewed up grammer you probably think I have less in the head than even a Coconut. You may be right....

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but what I'd like to know is where are your facts? Is it a fact that Blair and Bush don't have much up there or is it your opinion? It is your opinion, for you don't know these two individuals, you haven't discussed issues with them, heck you probably haven't even met them. Sure, I am not sure if they are super intelligent, but I don't accuse and I certainly don't put myself above these two leaders as if I was the newest edition of Albert Einstein.

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I do not consider myself superior to either Bush or Blair: I am not, mentally or otherwise.

But I do see people who are superior. And it is to them that I compare the two.
Blair to Thatcher. Bush to Powell.

Fleischer has to constantly correct what Bush says, because The President said something inappropriate. Again.

quote:

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All politicians, well, almost all , have speech writers. Unfortunately they are a tad busier than you and thus don't necessarily have the time to write all of their speeches. Yet, as earlier stated, the speech represents what they want to say. A speech must also be delivered in a good way, and while I don't think Bush is the greatest speaker in the world, he certainly did a great job last night.

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quote:

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It would be interesting Wistiti to see you run for office, to see how you would deal with this situation, to see if you could count on the support of your people.

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quote:

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It's easy to be somewhere in the wild wilderness of beautiful Canada and critize, easy to make people look stupid or less important, or to belittle them,especially in a time like this. It is easy, but it doesn't make you look good. Not at all.

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"Wilderness of beautiful Canada"? Way to go bro. Exactly what Bushboy would have said. Thanks for the example. I was trying to think of one.

Doesn't make me look good? I don't have an image to maintain. I don't care about what other people think about me. I state what's on my mind. If someone doesn't like it, or me, to hell with them. I won't feel any more, nor less of them. If they think less of me because I've said nasty things in my way, rather than hiding them behind hypocritical (aka "diplomatic") expressions... fine.
Maybe, I'm wrong. Maybe Bush and Blair will turn out to be among the great leaders of the world. I still have to see some indication to that effect. Which is not forthcoming.

Make Bush look stupid? Do I really have to? He does a pretty good job on his own. As do many newspapers. TV shows. Humorists. All of them American, by the way.
And we do have our own version of Bush: Stockwell Day, Opposition Leader.
Then there are all the stupid remarks our "great" prime minister has made.
And our provincial prime minister, Bernard Landry, calling the Canadian flag a "red rag".
Come to think of it, perhaps my disdain for Bush and Blair is not that much based upon my feelings towards them... I have always had a profound dislike of all politicians, whom I see as nothing more than hypocritical power hungry money wasting twits.
Had Peter, instead of Bush and Blair, mentioned Simeon Sakscoburgsky, or Vladimir Putin, my reaction would pretty much have been the same.
Yes, I like to ridicule politicians. Kind of hard not to... when I see where tax payer's money goes.
I can't shoot them, it's illegal, and it's wrong.
I can't replace them: I neither have the capacity, nor the will.
What else is left then, other than to criticize them? And ridicule them?
Perhaps I'm nostalgic. For an era where people with convictions and projects for the betterment of the nation ran countries. Rather than people who only suck up to given pressure groups in hopes the groups will vote for them.

quote:

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But then again, this is only Scott speaking and since you have probably noticed my many spelling mistakes and my skrewed up grammer you probably think I have less in the head than even a Coconut.

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quote:

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You may be right....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Paddon:
"It takes an exceptional degree of stupidity, not to mention animus toward America, to call for "peace" at a time like this. Unlike Vietnam or the Gulf War, this is not a case of America choosing to intervene overseas; America was at war the moment our enemies struck us on our own soil."

-Wall Street Journal, September 21, 2001.

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Wall Street Journal...

"The last refuge of the scumbags" (Samuel Johnson)

"When you hear a man talking about the love for his country be sure he expects to be paid for that" (H. L. Mencken)

"The patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" (Oscar Wilde)

"The patriotism is a pernicious and psychopath form of idiocy" (George Bernard Shaw)

"The patriotism is nothing else than bullshit: it's a word that just celebrates a robbery. There isn't one league of land which doesn't represent the come and go of successive owners" (Mark Twain)

* Please notice that I had to translate the quotes from Portuguese back to English, so it may look a little different from the originals

Yep. And I also like their preface to the quoted section.

"What kind of idiot would call for "peace" at a time like this?"

Those that mock the patriotism of Americans, and their pride in their nation, their heritage, their leadership, and in their heroes like the New York police,firemen and rescue teams, and those like my college classmate Todd Beamer (Wheaton College, '91), who gave his life to stop the hijackers from plowing the fourth plane into either the White House or the Capitol building, reveal a sickness within themselves that is contemptible in every sense.

But...now that our "enemies" have laid the ground rules, it's quite simple -- there ARE NO INNOCENTS...not in this battle.

Every life in the WTC was an innocent one. Every life among the passengers -- excluding the terrorists -- was an innocent one.

The terrorists negated the idea of innocents for this battle -- they are the ones who place their own innocents in harm's way thinking the West would never target them.

--What is there left to believe in?

--God.

--You still believe in him after all that's happened?

--God's not responsible to us, we're responsible to God for all that happens here.

--You have no doubt?

Lets make a wish here that the partial cover of the midia to the coward attacks on the WTC doesn't obscure all the miserable deaths caused everyday by USA expansionist and devastator policy since these social crimes doesn't have the "cinematographic effect" and therefore are neglected by the world wide midia"

quote:

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Originally posted by André Lux:

Well, not all... just about 99.9%.

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Any casualties in Iraq are the responsibility of their terrorist supporting leader. Not the United States, and only a hate America bullshit artist who approves of terrorism would say otherwise.

Afghanistan in the 80s? Gee whiz, let's remember the genocide caused by the Soviet Union's army which invaded, and not also forget the fact that American support of the mujahadeen, which did not consist solely of present day Taliban members, helped cause the long-term destruction of the Soviet Empire leading to the liberation of Eastern Europe from a half-century of totalitarian rule. (Oh but I forgot, Andre was weeping in sorrow when the Berlin Wall came down).

The casualties of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the consequence of an Imperial Japanese regime that raped China, bombed Pearl Harbor and engaged in acts of terror such as the Bataan Death March and the selling of Korean and Phillipine women into slavery. But since in a previous thread on another board, Mr. Bullshit Lux has defended the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, we already know that he favors them to the United States.

And as for Vietnam and Cambodia, I'll gladly remember those. In Vietnam a communist government that borrowed a page from their hero Uncle Joe Stalin and instituted their "reeducation camps" for those who wouldn't conform to their regimented society, which led to the tragedy of 500,000 Boat People that preferred drowning in the South China Sea to living under the "benevolence" of Uncle Ho. And as for Cambodia, I'll gladly mention how it was the enemy that won after American withdrawal who started the practice of mass genocide, which America tried to prevent. But of course, the Leftist movements of America and Europe kept telling us what nice benevolent people those Khmer Rouge leaders would be!

It is nice to know that terrorists and lovers of totalitarian ideology, be it fascism or communism will always have one ass-kissing stooge in the form of Andre Lux, who I am quite certain was cheering loudly when those towers came down last week.

You can take your BS opinions of America, Andre, and shove them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Paddon:
helped cause the long-term destruction of the Soviet Empire leading to the liberation of Eastern Europe from a half-century of totalitarian rule.

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Oh please! That definitely is bullshit. And of the biggest smelliest type too.

The "liberation of Easter Europe"????
From what? Satan?

Sorry dude, but I lived in Eastern Europe during this so-called "inhumane oppression" of the people by "totalitarian regimes" and "psychopathic leaders".
I sure as hell did not see so much suffering and desperation as I have seen in the "free" world.

Ok, so you couldn't go out on the street and yell "This Government Sucks!"

Who gives a ****?

People used to lead careless lives.
They were paid small wages. And didn't work.

A popular expression was "I can't wait for the weekend to end, so I can go back to work and rest!"
Weekends were more tiring than working!
When's the last time people in the United States or Canada could say something like that?

>Oh please! That definitely is bullshit. And >of the biggest smelliest type too.

>The "liberation of Easter Europe"????
>From what? Satan?

The liberation from an odious totalitarian system that produced the likes of hack mini-Stalinists all over Eastern Europe, whether in Czecholslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland or Romania where every one was an ass-kissing puppet who obeyed edicts from Moscow or else.

>Sorry dude, but I lived in Eastern Europe >during this so-called "inhumane oppression" >of the people by "totalitarian regimes" >and "psychopathic leaders".
>I sure as hell did not see so much >suffering and desperation as I have seen in >the "free" world.

Hungary-1956. The Berlin Wall. The Prague Spring. The repression of Solidarity in 1980. You are full of **** to make that declaration and you are no different then the kind of hack apologists for communist totalitarian states who from 1917 to the 1980s could always be counted on to lie and suppress the truth about repression and brutality done by such states.

And gee whiz, if things were so wonderful then why was it that in 1989, the people in effect revolted against all of those governments? For a hack apologist like you, that is the damned spot that will never out. The people made their choice in 1989 and said **** communism.

>Ok, so you couldn't go out on the street >and yell "This Government Sucks!"
>Who gives a ****?

Oh yes, of course. Who cares about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom to choose one's own destiny? What a bunch of mere trifles compared to the prospect of having your life regimented by the all-powerful-all-knowing-all-mighty State!

Pardon me now as a I reach for a bag to vomit in. This kind of bullshit I would expect only from some nostalgic SS officer who feels lonely for the good old days of the Reich.

>Yes you're going to find people who hated >it there. I know many of them. Turns out, >they were the sleaze of the country

Alexander Dubcek. Lech Walesa. Vaclav Havel. Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The victims shot down by Honnecker's thugs at the Berlin Wall. These people are the heroes who believed in the right to freedom and liberty, and understood the totalitarian dynamic of the worthless system of communism far better than a hack like you ever will.

Looks like you and Andre can share that Stalin statue to perform a Lewinsky job on.

When you read something written by people who have a clear point of view of the situation in communist Europe - who present the goods, and the evils rather than focusing on the sole evils by completely ignoring the goods and by completely exagerating the evils - we'll continue this discussion.

Those that whitewash the horrors of totalitarian rule like yourself shame the memories of those who died in the Gulag, in Hungary in 1956, Prague in 1968, Warsaw in 1980, not to mention all the victims of the Berlin Wall. And the people gave their answer to your crap in 1989 when they liberated themselves.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Paddon:
"The Black Book Of Communism." As unbiased an account of the horrors of totalitarian communism as one will ever find about the one ideology responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in the 20th century. And then I'll refer you to "The Gulag Archipelago" and the rest of Solzheintsyn's works.

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I said "unbiased" and "neutral". I certainly did not say "biased against communism", or "one-sided tale of the wrongs of communism". Wrongs of which there are many by the way. Just as many as there are in "freeism", in fact.

When a book is titled "The Black Book of Communism" and is described by it's reader as "unbiased an account of the horrors of totalitarian communism as one will ever find about the one ideology responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in the 20th century" it sounds about as unbiased as "The Communist Manifesto".

You will forgive me if I doubt the so-called "neutrality" or objectivity of "The Black Book of Communism".

why don't you stand for a couple of minutes in silence for the way your government treats the Inidans? Or how it has done so in the past?

True, my country has done many mistakes. But, why don't you get your house in order before you start pointing the finger, for your government is not much better.

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Paddon:
nd the people gave their answer to your crap in 1989 when they liberated themselves.

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Agh... again that liberation word...
Oh well... regardless...

People did not give the answer to my "crap" when they "liberated themselves" ( ). They only gave an answer to governments which had a very hard time issuing visas for people to leave the country.
Had people been given those visas more freely, they would have seen that "free" western society was not as heavenly and magical as it's reputation within the walls of communist states indicated. A reputation based, more than anything else, on the variety of products available for consumer purchasing. Not a reputation comparing the complete extent of lifestyles and living conditions in capitalism and communism.

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott:
True, my country has done many mistakes. But, why don't you get your house in order before you start pointing the finger, for your government is not much better.

Scott

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This is the best concept I've heard all day.

Gee whiz, while we're at it, let's also insist on reading "Mein Kampf" for an "unbiased" view of Nazism or get the SS's take on Concentration Camps. This is just pathetic. Solzhenitsyn obviously had you and your ilk in mind when he wrote so eloquently of those who perpetrate the Lie.

There is no "free" counterpart to the Cheka, or Stalin's forced starvation of the Ukraine, or the Purge Trials, or the Doctors Plot, or the coup in Czechoslovakia in 1949, or the massacres in Hungary in 1956, or the Berlin Wall, or Soviet tanks in Czechoslovakia in 1968, or the crackdown and repression of Solidarity in 1980. Except in the warped mind of someone who still wants to look for something redeeming in the system that lead to more death and suffering than anything else in the 20th century when the Asian communist experiments of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and the Khmer Rouge are thrown in for good measure.

The only reason you fear "The Black Book Of Communism" is because you can't respond to any of it's vast documentation of the atrocities of worldwide communist regimes and movements. The source material of which happens to come from the *communist* archives.

The only objective view of history is to note communism exactly as Ronald Reagan so aptly put it, the focus of evil in the world during its time. But as Ronald Reagan so courageously noted, was destined for the ashheap of history thanks to the determination of people to be free, rather than have their lives regimented by an all-powerful state.

But many countries have better track records when it comes to human rights than other countries and the US is better than most. We are often criticized on issues involving race, class, and gender, but the standard of living and freedom of action for most US citizens is pretty good.

Compare this to the millions killed by purges in totalitarian countries or in lands plagued by ethnic rivalries, not to mention their lives lived in toil, fear, and poverty.

I spent the night of September 11th at a candlelight vigil on the University of Michigan campus in Ann Arbor. However, since the 11th, the emotions I felt over what took place seem to have been taken from me, distorted, and been returned to me in an alien form.

It should come as no shock to those who've read my other postings that I am a contrarian alarmed by the possiblity of new domestic regulations that threaten to make the US a police state: increased power to law enforcement, national ID cards, airport security, etc. I'm also alarmed by the new "consensus" that doesn't allow for voices of dissent: radio stations refusing to play songs critical of the system, the constant media barrage which has turned a tragic news story into a national crusade for war.

I believe we need to make a response to keep terrorists in check even if it means a ground war in Afghanistan (which we could probably avoid through prolonged diplomacy and sanctions--but people these days seem to prefer fighting to being patient). Certainly something needs to be done before terror organizations obtain nuclear weapons (something that former Israeli prime minister Netanyahu has come to the US to discuss lately). We put many of the people responsible for the first WTC bombing behind bars and it has taken the organization behind them 10 years to mount another strike. Doing the same now would help keep future attacks at bay, though I believe there is no way to ultimately stop terrorist activity.

Still, even if we can't turn the other cheek and need to act, our actions don't need to be accompanied by all the propaganda we've been getting. I'm literally sick of being told I'm resolved, united, determined, proud to be American, etc. Obviously, I'm no longer allowed to feel otherwise without being shunned and yelled at. This extends to political criticism. Just because the nation has suffered an attack, it doesn't follow that everyone needs to rally behind the current leaders regardless of how poor they are. I have nothing but criticism for Bush--he has embarassed this country with his simplistic language and play acting at stature. If we are indeed in as much of a crisis as the media would have us believe, we need a much stronger and intelligent leader than the one we currently have. I despised Al Gore and thought he'd be weak against the real and lasting threat to the US: China (see the Cox report for reasons why), but he's actually looking good in hindsight compared with Bush. Hell, I'd rather have Nixon in the White House right now than what we've got. Being unable to criticize the leadership is the hallmark of a totalitarian society--I'll war right here on US soil against any flag-waving, ribbon-wearing American whose facsist jingo/Rambo-ism blocks people's right to speak their mind, opinion, or the truth.

Finally, a comment on Michael Moore. Moore is a supporter of Nader and the Green Party whose far-left stance is highly critical of America. I wouldn't call leftists self-hating, but some do seem so against capitalism that they will rally against any pro-Americanism.

Just the same, those that have read Noah Chomsky will realize that US policy regarding the arab world has always been single-minded: middle east energy must flow to the west and no arab country must be allowed the self-determination that would interfere with this process. The Shah of Iran was a monster but he kept the oil flowing to the US. When he was deposed, we supported Iraq's fight to suppress Iran. Then, when Iraq became powerful as a result, we fought what we created. In the process, we did little to help the Kurds and the Shiites because, like the Palestinians, they represent groups that want self-determination and must be suppressed for the US to keep control of oil in the region. The US supports Israel as part of this strategy as well since the Israeli's pre-emptive attacks on arab nations are cloaked US attacks by proxy.

I would never say we deserved Sept. 11th or that we brought it down upon ourselves. What I will say is that we have done a lot to manipulate the politics of the arab world and created enemies as a result just as Michael Moore suggested.

Unfortunately, one possible solution to our problems is one that may be impossible to return to: we need to become isolationist rather than global; we need to become more productive internally as a country, making markets within our own borders, using our own energy resources and developing others so that we aren't reliant on other countries for markets, cheap labor, and energy. In this way, we have no need to politically manipulate the affairs of other countries and become involved with their poltical agendas and hatreds.

I am as always against kneejerk reactions and warfare and can only hope that the course the US is bent on taking will be the best for us in the long run. The concept of Karma does state that what goes around comes around; and, if we are unjust, excessive, or profiteering in the strife to come, this is likely to return to us for paybacks at some point in the future.

First, citing Noam Chomsky is not what I would consider making use of someone with pretensions of credibility. Chomsky, IMO, forfeited all claim to ever be taken seriously as an analyst when he spent the better part of several years in the late 70s insisting there was no such thing as a genocide taking place in Cambodia, as perpetrated by the Khmer Rouge.

Second, I think it is a bogus argument to suggest that oil is the driving force behind Mid-East policy because if that were true, then for what reason would we have ever had to be the most loyal and reliable ally the state of Israel has ever possessed? The animosity that breeds the terrorism and hatred of the US in so many parts of the Arab world IMO stems from the fact that the United States has been the greatest obstacle to the goal held by many of seeing Israel eradicated forever as a nation. And in that respect, when I hear Arabs protest of how they hate America, I have to confess I'm ready to gag because if they hate us, it's because too many of them possess a visceral hatred of Jews to the point where they have no desire to live with Israel in peace. War was started by the Arabs and Palestinians in 1948 when they refused to accept a partitioned Palestine and instead decided their goal would be the destruction of Israel. Their hatred, is thus rooted in the fact that we have been an ally to the people they hate above all others.

As for the Shah of Iran, I will not dispute the fact that he was an autocrat and a dictator in the traditional sense of those like Franco, Chiang-Kai-Shek etc. But he was also a considerably more enlightened ruler in terms of equality for women and other matters then any Islamic Fundamentalist ever was or has been. I think to bash the US for our support of the Shah, is about as weak an argument as bashing the US for supporting Anwar Sadat (who was a close friend of the Shah's) during the late 1970s. Sure, the Shah was reliable for oil but it also helped that he was one of the few mid-east leaders also willing to dissassociate himself from the hate-Israel mentality of so many of his neighbors.

I do fault American policy in 1991 for not finishing the job against Saddam and for not doing what it should have to arm the opposition against Saddam including the Kurds and Shiites. It will be an irony of history that if George W. Bush succeeds in his effort, he will in the process magnify the failures of his father in terms of leaving the job unfinished in 1991 (though ultimately, more blame will be affixed for the bungled policies of the President of 1993-2001 I feel)

The Palestinian problem, can not be affixed to the US. It must rest solely with the hatred of Israel that the Palestinian leadership has maintained all these years. I believe that Arafat is still a terrorist at heart who still believes in destroying Israel one day. And I am absolutely opposed to the creation of any Palestinian state because I do not see why Israel, which has had her safety threatened for years in wars she never sought nor started, should suddenly fork over territory for the sake of peace. Israel should no more be compelled to give up land to the Palestinians anymore then Poland should give back the province of Silesia to Germany.

As for the outbreak of patriotism, Lou, I think you need to understand that this is simply repeating the Pearl Harbor precedent. The reason why those who insist on bashing American leadership and policymakers right now during this time of crisis earn my contempt is precisely because these people lack the simple decency that all members of the America First Committee had on December 8, 1941. On that day, all the chapters literally closed shop and all isolationists who hated Franklin Roosevelt, put aside what they felt before in the interests of national unity. There were plenty of legitimate grounds for criticizing FDR's conduct prior to December 7, but after that date, there was no longer any reason to continue that argument.

And this brings up another point, Lou. Groups critical of the President are not in danger of having their freedoms taken away. They are free to continue speaking out because the First Amendment says they can. But that same First Amendment that gives the 1% of those who hate the President and his policies the right to speak their minds also gives the 99% of us who think otherwise the right to use that same First Amendment to vent our opinions about the 1%. And that's something I'm not about to apologize for.

I think it does the vast majority of Americans who have banded together a disservice of the highest order to mock or belittle their heartfelt expressions of patriotism and national unity at this time. I see nothing phony or Ramboesque about it, because we are not clamoring for instant action just for the hell of it. We are instead showing a remarkable patience to wait until the time is ready, and to do it effectively. And we are also willing to accept this fight as a long term challenge.